Horse, Linguistic History and more

[Kentel]

Interesting. It makes the most common name in Poland "Kowalski" none IE, in otherwise very IE language. :)

Curiously enough, the Polish word kowal (smith) is probably one of the very few words of Celtic origins in Slavic, being originaly a borrowing from Gaulish goben (smith - "gof" in Breton). From Gaulish or from another old Celtic language. It is not a PIE word, unless you absolutely want to connect it with *g^(h)eub^h (to bend) as some linguists do. But Delamarre stresses that, contrary to bronze, iron was neither bent nor folded when worked. And "goben" points undoubdtedly to iron smiths.

[Kentel]

Not quite: you're forgetting the so-called laryngeals (*H₁, *H₂, *H₃), which were also fricatives.

Yes, right, laryngeals... I remember one of my professors saying "why don't they admit that PIE had quite simply a A and a O and give us a break with their laryngeal hysteria ?". But yes, you're certainly right, they were constrictives, or something similar (fricatives maybe).

[Taranis]

Yes, right, laryngeals... I remember one of my professors saying "why don't they admit that PIE had quite simply a A and a O and give us a break with their laryngeal hysteria ?". But yes, you're certainly right, they were constrictives, or something similar (fricatives maybe).

Well, I agree, and I disagree with your professor: my opinion is that PIE certainly had the laryngeals (obviously at the positions where they are reflected in Anatolian), but I agree with him in so far as that the "laryngeal soup" that some reconstructed proto-forms of words become, appear unlikely.

[LeBrok]

In a number of IE daughter languages (including Slavic, but also Latin and German, for instance), the sound *v arose from an earlier *w. Another typical way for *v to arise is from an earlier *b, which happened in Brythonic and (medieval to modern) Greek for instance. The latter also explains why the Cyrilic letter В has the value /v/ while a new letter for /b/ (Б) was invented.
.

I see. Let me play with it a bit. Theoretically we can go back in time and evolution of this word, like this: Kaval -> Kawal -> Kwal (kual)
Interestingly it brings us close to Albanian and Romanian "kal" for horse.

I looked through other languages outside europe too, and have to say that I couldn't find anything even remotely close to Cabal, Koval, Kual, Kal for horse or stallion. If it is not IE, it looks seriously local (Balkan) non-IE.

Other names for horse:
"At" and "Aygir" look Turkic to me. Mongolian "adu", possible East Steppe connection.

Interesting for stallion:
"žrebec" Slavic, "zirgas" Latvian, "zi" Armenian, "azarga" Mongolian (steppe connection?). Basque "Zaldi" doesn't seam to belong to this group.


Generally, there are so many names for horses, that domestication of horse didn't play a role in naming this animal. Looks more that horses existed everywhere in Eurasia, hens many local names.

[LeBrok]

Curiously enough, the Polish word kowal (smith) is probably one of the very few words of Celtic origins in Slavic, being originaly a borrowing from Gaulish goben (smith - "gof" in Breton). From Gaulish or from another old Celtic language. It is not a PIE word, unless you absolutely want to connect it with *g^(h)eub^h (to bend) as some linguists do. But Delamarre stresses that, contrary to bronze, iron was neither bent nor folded when worked. And "goben" points undoubdtedly to iron smiths.

Somehow it might be a polish construct of kon (horse) and wal (hit with hammer), hens konwal -> kowal (smith that makes iron horseshoes and installs them with nails to the hoofs.)

[Yetos]

This one sounds pretty close to "horse", unfortunately the Greek ph is a reflexe of PIE *b^h while Germanic h is a reflexe op PIE *k (or *k'). So it does not work.




I like this one much more than the Vulgar Latin *pullus for the French "poulain" (colt). Do you have an etymology ?



But *ek^wo cannot yield ka- nor ca-, thus it doesn't work.

Well in Greek Ph and F = Φ no ph exists in words, but Φ Philip = Φιλιππος
so Φορβας can be connected with Germaniv Pherd Paard but different gender.
about Πωλος the word was used to express the young Horse (1 Year old) Donkey or Mule, Πωλος and the very small Πωλαριον (less than 1 year)
for example
olympic games with Horses 384BC
tεθριππον πωλων, συνωρις πωλων were olympic games with young horses
well if it is usefull in Olympic games the horses where named also as κοππατιες and σαμφορες but mainly due to the Marks S (( Ϟ ϟ Κοππα Qoppa) and Σ (Sigma) in their nail.

the idea is that since we have change in Celtic and Greek like Ikkos to Ippos then we might have something simmilar

BUT
I found something that might be usefull
ΚΑΛΠΗ. 496 Bc for first time, the female horses run,
dont know etymology but the run of female horses was named KΑλπη Kalpi-Kalpe

[Yetos]

I wonder do we know the size of the horse of 3500 BC? or even troyan war horse?

I wonder did the famous Arabian berber Turkic Horses existed when R1b entered Europe?

for example we know the most ancient horses in Europe was Equus Cabalus Skyros or Equus ferus Cabalus Thessalonian (Horse that entered balkans by Scythians)
could that horse make a difference?



Scyriano is mentioned that was the horse that Myceneans had in Troyan war and only Thracian Diomedes had the Scythian like Thessalonian. (I Think Homer say that Diomedes horses eat meat, thats why they were big)

these horses are very small so you can find them as ponies but they are horses,
in fact are some of the most ancient in Europe, so I wonder could that horses be the tremendous war machine that we are speaking?
Even Scythian horses Thessalonian (Scythians are considered as very connected with Horse) which where 2500 years after Yamna-Dunav road and younger in Balkans, have nothing to do with today horses, that are Arabic Berber Turkic etc.

So when we Speak that steppe people had horses, plz your mind don't go to Horses like modern ones in size, but to small less 110 cm height until scythian 120-125 cm (neck and head not included)

I link the video to see how tall were the ancient European horses.

Both horses, but especially Scyriano are considered very ancient in Europe

[LeBrok]

Mare - horse female, English.

mare Basque, mara Estonian, mare Georgian, mare Lao, mare Norwegian


kobila Slavic, cavalla Italian, keve Latvian, kanca Hungarian (possible cognate with Slavic "kon"?)

euga Catalan, Portugues, yegua Spanish

stu Germanic
pele Albanian
iapa Romanian
klacz Polish
matak Armenian
tamma Finnish
forada Greek
khodi Hindi
larach Irish
equa Latin
kumele Lithuanian
kisrak Turkish
gaseg Welsh

[LeBrok]

I wonder do we know the size of the horse of 3500 BC? or even troyan horse?


for example we know the most ancient horses in Europe was Equus Cabalus Skyros or Equus ferus Cabalus Thessalonian (Horse that entered balkans by Scythians)
could that horse make a difference?

Mongols conquered half of the world on them! The smaller horses were still in use in europe till 19th century. It all could have started from Tarpan horse.
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Tarpan

[Kardu]

Mare - horse female, English.

mare Basque, mara Estonian, mare Georgian, mare Lao, mare Norwegian


kobila Slavic, cavalla Italian, keve Latvian, kanca Hungarian (possible cognate with Slavic "kon"?)

euga Catalan, Portugues, yegua Spanish

stu Germanic
pele Albanian
iapa Romanian
klacz Polish
matak Armenian
tamma Finnish
forada Greek
khodi Hindi
larach Irish
equa Latin
kumele Lithuanian
kisrak Turkish
gaseg Welsh

Sorry, LeBrok, there is no Mare in Georgian. Maybe you refer to Merani which is late loan-word.

[LeBrok]

Sorry, LeBrok, there is no Mare in Georgian. Maybe you refer to Merani which is late loan-word.

It's not my fault, Google Translate did it. ;)
There is no continental connections anyway. The words are all over the map.

[Yetos]

Mongols conquered half of the world on them! The smaller horses were still in use in europe till 19th century. It all could have started from Tarpan horse.
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Tarpan

Tarpan Turcoman Arabian Berber horses are newly horses in Europe, with max 2-2,5 milleniums history in Europe.
Scythians, Famous open valley - steppe people which culture use the horse very much, had max 120-130 cm Horses at 500 BC,

the only evidence of big horse is in ancient Egypt by Hyksos.

Tarpan may entered with Tatars or Huns in Europe.


Yet we do not know about Diomedes horses, but I guess should be taller than 130 cm

[Kardu]

It's not my fault, Google Translate did it. ;)
There is no continental connections anyway. The words are all over the map.

I see. :) Apparently they haven't added this word to their Georgian vocabulary.

In any case Mare - ფაშატ-ი Phashat-i

I believe it's a loanword too..

[Kentel]

Somehow it might be a polish construct of kon (horse) and wal (hit with hammer), hens konwal -> kowal (smith that makes iron horseshoes and installs them with nails to the hoofs.)

Excellent !

We can explore the matter further on : "konwalia" in Polish means "lily", what do you say about that ?

[Kentel]

Scythians, Famous open valley - steppe people which culture use the horse very much, had max 120-130 cm Horses at 500 BC,

the only evidence of big horse is in ancient Egypt by Hyksos.

If I understand well, we have been invaded by blond warlike horsemen with big bronze swords mounted on 1,30m horses ?

[Kardu]

If I understand well, we have been invaded by blond warlike horsemen with big bronze swords mounted on 1,30m horses ?

:) :) :) :) :)

[MOESAN]

Curiously enough, the Polish word kowal (smith) is probably one of the very few words of Celtic origins in Slavic, being originaly a borrowing from Gaulish goben (smith - "gof" in Breton). From Gaulish or from another old Celtic language. It is not a PIE word, unless you absolutely want to connect it with *g^(h)eub^h (to bend) as some linguists do. But Delamarre stresses that, contrary to bronze, iron was neither bent nor folded when worked. And "goben" points undoubdtedly to iron smiths.

I'm ready to follow you here concerning iron, but what is the reason of so a conviction, eliminating bronze smiths?

[MOESAN]

HORSES AND CLOSE ANIMALS speculations

I have not an I-E roots dictionary by the hand – here, just some possible links after being looked at some translations: my *s are a bit naive compared to modern I-E signs but...
greek: pôlos = «colt», «foal» <> germ. *fol-, lat. *pul- <???> alb.mod- pelë =«mare»
+ ir/scot-gael- lair << ? *plâr ??? << p°l-r ???
alb.mod- kalë = «horse» surely from *cabal- (and not *capal nor *cappal; what put me to conclude the Greats Isles Celts adopted **cappal- from a language that hardened (assourdissement) consonnants -

norv-dan- hoppe = merr =«mare» - it's hard for me not considering a possible root: *cab-
snskr- ašvah, indoust- aššv = «horse», lit- ašva = «mare» could be evolved cousins of *ekw- (by the way I saw lit- kumele = «mare», lett- kēve = «mare» could give way to some speculations (sometimes I wonder if camal- would not have a remote link with cabal-? I 'm not aware of hamitic-semitic languages evolution so it could be pure convergence) - I add lit- kumeliukas + lett- kumeĮs = «colt», «foal» - I know 'kuinas = kumele could show the root is just *ku- and not *kum-...
greek forbàs = «mare» seams to me based ont a root *phor- << *bhor <???> *bher- = to bear
&: this I-E *bh- recall me an interrogation shared by me and Taranis about modern germ- 'b- quasi identical to celtic and slavic 'b-' : why this consonnant never became 'p-' according to Grim's law? I think now it could be the proof '*bh- in germanic was not already arrived to the stage of simple b- when the big shift tooke place; in fact, in modern hoch-deutsche dialects the dictionary b- is pronounced as a non-aspirated /p/ but it is a secondary evolution -


I found some hypothetic link too between slavic *žreb- (žerebjonok/źrebię/hřibě/žrebeć/ždrebe) << **greb- = «colt», «foal» and indoust- ghŏɽā = aššv = «horse» -


all that seams showing some links within or between some groups of I-E languages but not a complete global unity, and some loan words seam almost evident... I have to refresh my mind and to give a rest to my poor old brain... I rely on you! Some coloured map showing the different roots in Eurasia could help? I have not the equipment to do it...


&& about french poule, lat- pullis and the apparently impossible semantic link with french poulain and other I-E cognates words, I cite the breton word jaw = marc'h = «horse»; jaw evocates me the french dialectal jau << jal/al << gal << gallus = cock – so, the question is still open for meanings drifts... I say too as answer to Kentel that sometimes the name of a litlle animal is given to the adult full developped animal of same race: breton kole << kohle, kodle << kozh-leue, «young bull» ('old-calf') which has taken the place of tarw for «bull» in some dialects; so 'poule', 'poulet' << *pullis doesn't seam so strange? The 2 words are attested in XIII°C french; maybe 'poulet' = «chicken» was created when 'poule' took the meanign of «hen»??? so 'pullis' = «little» keeps is explicative power? Yetos, was is the meaning of «-poulos» we find so often at the end of greek family names???


I would be very glad if I could have access to serious etymologies of a lot of I-E languages, sure!

[LeBrok]

Excellent !

We can explore the matter further on : "konwalia" in Polish means "lily", what do you say about that ?

lol, I admit I'm lost with kowal. The closest cognates that I found is Russia "kovats" (to hit with hammer) and Czech "kovar" (also blacksmith as in Polish, for the rest of Slavs it is "kuzniecz". What would you say if possibly it is a very old name for copper/bronze smith, through celtic/or east germanic borrowing into slavic? There were celtic setlements in Czech area, with huge metal smelting industry. Can you see an evolution from copper? I could only find that smith in insular celtic is "goba".

PS."kowalia" name comes from shape of a flower, like water vessel, "konwa" old Polish, modern "konewka".

[LeBrok]

Looks like we don't have pan-IE horse connection. We should be more successful with a wheel and a wagon though, or even word "bronze".

[Yetos]

@ Moesan
about ending names in -opoulos


well according 1 out of 3 possible explanations yes

it is like a dimunitive

English anc Greek, Modern Greek, Dimunitive
Cat (μυ)γαλη Γατα Γατ-ακι and Γατ-ουλι
falcon Ιεραξ Γερακι Γερακ-ουλι
but
Eagle Αετος Αετος Αετ-ουλι and Αετ-οπουλο
Pig Χοιρος(Ηoiros) Χοιρος and Γουρουνι Γουρουν-ακι and Γουρουν-οπουλο.

According to 2nd explanation is after Latin Pullus cause we find it mainly after Enetocracy and Francocracy.

3rd possible is complicated and consider ending as Thracian or Slavic

[MOESAN]

@ Moesan
about ending names in -opoulos


well according 1 out of 3 possible explanations yes

it is like a dimunitive

English anc Greek, Modern Greek, Dimunitive
Cat (μυ)γαλη Γατα Γατ-ακι and Γατ-ουλι
falcon Ιεραξ Γερακι Γερακ-ουλι
but
Eagle Αετος Αετος Αετ-ουλι and Αετ-οπουλο
Pig Χοιρος(Ηoiros) Χοιρος and Γουρουνι Γουρουν-ακι and Γουρουν-οπουλο.

According to 2nd explanation is after Latin Pullus cause we find it mainly after Enetocracy and Francocracy.

3rd possible is complicated and consider ending as Thracian or Slavic

thanks for answer, yetos

[MOESAN]

just to appear more serious to linguists:
kole/kohle << not kozh-leue ("old calf", only the present day components fo understanding the meaning) but << coth-loe (gaulish: 'cott-' = "old"

answer to Kentel:
I don't explain 'K-' of 'kowal' or 'kovats' in front of 'G-' of 'gov-' << 'gob-' in slavic languages

[MOESAN]

I can add that even in sentance structure we saw evolutions among I-E languages and that the today differences are not the proof that there have not been more homogenous structures employed at high time in I-E language "offsprings" - some evolutions could be put on the account of substrata action, others to hazard local evolutions without link we any sbustrata nor superstrata - see the fall of declinsons among a lot of modern languages and the use of a lot of prepositions - occidental Europe is a good example of that...

[Pixelless]

Well the Albanian words kalë(horse) and pelë(mare) both probably have origin from the Latin caballus. Respectively kalë <> caballus, and pelë <> caballus.