Horse, Linguistic History and more

Curiously enough, the Polish word kowal (smith) is probably one of the very few words of Celtic origins in Slavic, being originaly a borrowing from Gaulish goben (smith - "gof" in Breton). From Gaulish or from another old Celtic language. It is not a PIE word, unless you absolutely want to connect it with *g(h)eubh (to bend) as some linguists do. But Delamarre stresses that, contrary to bronze, iron was neither bent nor folded when worked. And "goben" points undoubdtedly to iron smiths.

I'm ready to follow you here concerning iron, but what is the reason of so a conviction, eliminating bronze smiths?
 
HORSES AND CLOSE ANIMALS speculations

I have not an I-E roots dictionary by the hand – here, just some possible links after being looked at some translations: my *s are a bit naive compared to modern I-E signs but...
greek: pôlos = «colt», «foal» <> germ. *fol-, lat. *pul- <???> alb.mod- pelë =«mare»
+ ir/scot-gael- lair << ? *plâr ??? << p°l-r ???
alb.mod- kalë = «horse» surely from *cabal- (and not *capal nor *cappal; what put me to conclude the Greats Isles Celts adopted **cappal- from a language that hardened (assourdissement) consonnants -

norv-dan- hoppe = merr =«mare» - it's hard for me not considering a possible root: *cab-
snskr- a[FONT=Times New Roman, serif]š[/FONT][FONT=Times New Roman, serif]vah[/FONT][FONT=Times New Roman, serif], indoust- [/FONT][FONT=Times New Roman, serif]a[/FONT][FONT=Times New Roman, serif]ššv [/FONT][FONT=Times New Roman, serif]= «horse», lit- [/FONT][FONT=Times New Roman, serif]ašva [/FONT][FONT=Times New Roman, serif]= «mare» could be evolved cousins of [/FONT][FONT=Times New Roman, serif]*ekw-[/FONT][FONT=Times New Roman, serif] (by the way I saw lit- [/FONT][FONT=Times New Roman, serif]kumele [/FONT][FONT=Times New Roman, serif]= «mare», lett- [/FONT][FONT=Times New Roman, serif]kēve [/FONT][FONT=Times New Roman, serif]= «mare» could give way to some speculations (sometimes I wonder if [/FONT][FONT=Times New Roman, serif]camal- [/FONT][FONT=Times New Roman, serif]would not have a remote link with [/FONT][FONT=Times New Roman, serif]cabal-[/FONT][FONT=Times New Roman, serif]? I 'm not aware of hamitic-semitic languages evolution so it could be pure convergence) - I add lit- [/FONT][FONT=Times New Roman, serif]kumeliukas [/FONT][FONT=Times New Roman, serif]+ lett- [/FONT][FONT=Times New Roman, serif]kumeĮs[/FONT][FONT=Times New Roman, serif] = «colt», «foal» - I know [/FONT][FONT=Times New Roman, serif]'kuinas = kumele [/FONT][FONT=Times New Roman, serif]could show the root is just [/FONT][FONT=Times New Roman, serif]*ku- [/FONT][FONT=Times New Roman, serif] and not [/FONT][FONT=Times New Roman, serif]*kum-[/FONT][FONT=Times New Roman, serif]... [/FONT]
[FONT=Times New Roman, serif]greek [/FONT][FONT=Times New Roman, serif]forbàs [/FONT][FONT=Times New Roman, serif]= «mare» seams to me based ont a root [/FONT][FONT=Times New Roman, serif]*phor- [/FONT][FONT=Times New Roman, serif]<< *[/FONT][FONT=Times New Roman, serif]bhor [/FONT][FONT=Times New Roman, serif]<???>[/FONT][FONT=Times New Roman, serif] *bher-[/FONT][FONT=Times New Roman, serif] = to bear [/FONT]
[FONT=Times New Roman, serif] [/FONT][FONT=Times New Roman, serif]&: this I-E [/FONT][FONT=Times New Roman, serif]*bh- [/FONT][FONT=Times New Roman, serif]recall me an interrogation shared by me and Taranis about modern germ- [/FONT][FONT=Times New Roman, serif]'b- [/FONT][FONT=Times New Roman, serif]quasi identical to celtic and slavic [/FONT][FONT=Times New Roman, serif]'b-' [/FONT][FONT=Times New Roman, serif]: why this consonnant never became [/FONT][FONT=Times New Roman, serif]'p-' [/FONT][FONT=Times New Roman, serif]according to Grim's law? I think now it could be the proof [/FONT][FONT=Times New Roman, serif]'*bh-[/FONT][FONT=Times New Roman, serif] in germanic was not already arrived to the stage of simple [/FONT][FONT=Times New Roman, serif]b- [/FONT][FONT=Times New Roman, serif]when the big shift tooke place; in fact, in modern hoch-deutsche dialects the dictionary [/FONT][FONT=Times New Roman, serif]b- [/FONT][FONT=Times New Roman, serif]is pronounced as a non-aspirated [/FONT][FONT=Times New Roman, serif]/p/[/FONT][FONT=Times New Roman, serif] but it is a secondary evolution - [/FONT]


[FONT=Times New Roman, serif]I found some hypothetic link too between slavic [/FONT][FONT=Times New Roman, serif]*žreb- [/FONT][FONT=Times New Roman, serif]([/FONT][FONT=Times New Roman, serif]žerebjonok/źrebię/hřibě/žrebeć/ždrebe[/FONT][FONT=Times New Roman, serif]) << **[/FONT][FONT=Times New Roman, serif]greb- [/FONT][FONT=Times New Roman, serif]= «colt», «foal» and indoust- [/FONT][FONT=Times New Roman, serif]ghŏɽā[/FONT][FONT=Times New Roman, serif] = [/FONT][FONT=Times New Roman, serif]a[/FONT][FONT=Times New Roman, serif]ššv [/FONT][FONT=Times New Roman, serif]= «horse» - [/FONT]


[FONT=Times New Roman, serif]all that seams showing some links within or between some groups of I-E languages but not a complete global unity, and some loan words seam almost evident... I have to refresh my mind and to give a rest to my poor old brain... I rely on you! Some coloured map showing the different roots in Eurasia could help? I have not the equipment to do it...[/FONT]


[FONT=Times New Roman, serif]&& about french [/FONT][FONT=Times New Roman, serif]poule[/FONT][FONT=Times New Roman, serif], lat-[/FONT][FONT=Times New Roman, serif] pullis [/FONT][FONT=Times New Roman, serif]and the apparently impossible semantic link with french [/FONT][FONT=Times New Roman, serif]poulain [/FONT][FONT=Times New Roman, serif]and other I-E cognates words, I cite the breton word [/FONT][FONT=Times New Roman, serif]jaw = marc'h [/FONT][FONT=Times New Roman, serif]= «horse»; [/FONT][FONT=Times New Roman, serif]jaw[/FONT][FONT=Times New Roman, serif] evocates me the french dialectal [/FONT][FONT=Times New Roman, serif]jau << jal/al << gal << gallus[/FONT][FONT=Times New Roman, serif] = cock – so, the question is still open for meanings drifts... I say too as answer to Kentel that sometimes the name of a litlle animal is given to the adult full developped animal of same race: breton [/FONT][FONT=Times New Roman, serif]kole[/FONT][FONT=Times New Roman, serif] << [/FONT][FONT=Times New Roman, serif]kohle, kodle << kozh-leue[/FONT][FONT=Times New Roman, serif], «young bull» ('old-calf') which has taken the place of [/FONT][FONT=Times New Roman, serif]tarw [/FONT][FONT=Times New Roman, serif]for «bull» in some dialects; so [/FONT][FONT=Times New Roman, serif]'poule', 'poulet' << *pullis [/FONT][FONT=Times New Roman, serif]doesn't seam so strange? The 2 words are attested in XIII°C french; maybe 'poulet' = «chicken» was created when 'poule' took the meanign of «hen»??? so 'pullis' = «little» keeps is explicative power? Yetos, was is the meaning of «[/FONT][FONT=Times New Roman, serif]-poulos» [/FONT][FONT=Times New Roman, serif]we find so often at the end of greek family names???[/FONT]


[FONT=Times New Roman, serif]I would be very glad if I could have access to serious etymologies of a lot of I-E languages, sure![/FONT]
 
Excellent !

We can explore the matter further on : "konwalia" in Polish means "lily", what do you say about that ?
lol, I admit I'm lost with kowal. The closest cognates that I found is Russia "kovats" (to hit with hammer) and Czech "kovar" (also blacksmith as in Polish, for the rest of Slavs it is "kuzniecz". What would you say if possibly it is a very old name for copper/bronze smith, through celtic/or east germanic borrowing into slavic? There were celtic setlements in Czech area, with huge metal smelting industry. Can you see an evolution from copper? I could only find that smith in insular celtic is "goba".

PS."kowalia" name comes from shape of a flower, like water vessel, "konwa" old Polish, modern "konewka".
 
Looks like we don't have pan-IE horse connection. We should be more successful with a wheel and a wagon though, or even word "bronze".
 
@ Moesan
about ending names in -opoulos


well according 1 out of 3 possible explanations yes

it is like a dimunitive

English anc Greek, Modern Greek, Dimunitive
Cat (μυ)γαλη Γατα Γατ-ακι and Γατ-ουλι
falcon Ιεραξ Γερακι Γερακ-ουλι
but
Eagle Αετος Αετος Αετ-ουλι and Αετ-οπουλο
Pig Χοιρος(Ηoiros) Χοιρος and Γουρουνι Γουρουν-ακι and Γουρουν-οπουλο.

According to 2nd explanation is after Latin Pullus cause we find it mainly after Enetocracy and Francocracy.

3rd possible is complicated and consider ending as Thracian or Slavic
 
@ Moesan
about ending names in -opoulos


well according 1 out of 3 possible explanations yes

it is like a dimunitive

English anc Greek, Modern Greek, Dimunitive
Cat (μυ)γαλη Γατα Γατ-ακι and Γατ-ουλι
falcon Ιεραξ Γερακι Γερακ-ουλι
but
Eagle Αετος Αετος Αετ-ουλι and Αετ-οπουλο
Pig Χοιρος(Ηoiros) Χοιρος and Γουρουνι Γουρουν-ακι and Γουρουν-οπουλο.

According to 2nd explanation is after Latin Pullus cause we find it mainly after Enetocracy and Francocracy.

3rd possible is complicated and consider ending as Thracian or Slavic

thanks for answer, yetos
 
just to appear more serious to linguists:
kole/kohle << not kozh-leue ("old calf", only the present day components fo understanding the meaning) but << coth-loe (gaulish: 'cott-' = "old"

answer to Kentel:
I don't explain 'K-' of 'kowal' or 'kovats' in front of 'G-' of 'gov-' << 'gob-' in slavic languages
 
I can add that even in sentance structure we saw evolutions among I-E languages and that the today differences are not the proof that there have not been more homogenous structures employed at high time in I-E language "offsprings" - some evolutions could be put on the account of substrata action, others to hazard local evolutions without link we any sbustrata nor superstrata - see the fall of declinsons among a lot of modern languages and the use of a lot of prepositions - occidental Europe is a good example of that...
 
Well the Albanian words kalë(horse) and pelë(mare) both probably have origin from the Latin caballus. Respectively kalë <> caballus, and pelë <> caballus.
 
Well the Albanian words kalë(horse) and pelë(mare) both probably have origin from the Latin caballus. Respectively kalë <> caballus, and pelë <> caballus.
Albanian "pelë" it's not of Latin origin, but PIE; cognates English "foal".
 
all the way, latin had a *pul- (different from *pull->> birds ?) root for 'foal' so surely cognate too...
it 's true that the Pixelles hypothesis seams wrong to me (two ways of stressing in a same language for a same root)
 
I'm wrong too, sorry !!! the stress in some languages can move, so... but then whe could have expected a trace of the old *K-(before p-l-) and the supposed *-b- intervocalic, disappeared in 'calë' is uneasy to explain under the form of 'p-' in 'pelë'
but we are here among hypothesis very unreliable...
 
Mare - horse female, English.

mare Basque, mara Estonian, mare Georgian, mare Lao, mare Norwegian


kobila Slavic, cavalla Italian, keve Latvian, kanca Hungarian (possible cognate with Slavic "kon"?)

euga Catalan, Portugues, yegua Spanish

stu Germanic
pele Albanian
iapa Romanian
klacz Polish
matak Armenian
tamma Finnish
forada Greek
khodi Hindi
larach Irish
equa Latin
kumele Lithuanian
kisrak Turkish
gaseg Welsh

thanks for some words: but sorry, the basic form in welsh (and breton, cornish) is with a K- soind: 'caseg'
 
all the way, an old form *ekw-/*akw- seams common to 2 celtic branches, to latin, greek, baltic and indo-iranian languages...
 
From Wiki:

"Kehoe/Keogh is one of several versions of the Irish name "Mac Eochaidh" which translates as ‘son of Eochaidh’, a personal name based on each ‘horse’. There is also a similar Danish surname, Keøgh"
[h=2][/h]
 
From Wiki:

"Kehoe/Keogh is one of several versions of the Irish name "Mac Eochaidh" which translates as ‘son of Eochaidh’, a personal name based on each ‘horse’. There is also a similar Danish surname, Keøgh"

this danish KEÖGH is very surprising to me: have you the DANISH meaning???
for ireland I add that exists too a KEOUGH form
 
this danish KEÖGH is very surprising to me: have you the DANISH meaning???
for ireland I add that exists too a KEOUGH form

If it is indeed Irish, then another likely spelling for Kehoe would be: 'Keown' Right now I don't have any other meanings for this lastname - though still reckon 'kehoe' is an English lastname to do with the landscape rather than an Irish lastname somehow to do with horses. Indeed, I can't understand that well how it links into the Danish lastname: Keøgh(?)
 
except an error, I see no link between KEOGH/KEOUGH/KEHOE and KEOWN
KEHOE is irish and only irish, I think -
KEOWN evocates me a gaelic scottish name MCKEOWN formed upon MAC-EWEN/MAC-EWAN (MAC EOGHAIN? seamingly "saxonization" under the forms: EUNSON/EWENSON in eastern Scotland) as MACKINTOSH for MAC-INTOSH
 
for danish KEÖGH if think it is a bad spelling for whether KOEGH or KÖGH old spellings of final -GH (as in flemish) for spired -G
a danisj word exists: kög = "to bake", "to cook" !?!
 

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