Horse, Linguistic History and more

A propos horses, here is the etymology for Danish "hest" (horse, same word in all the Scandinavian languages) according to the Gyldendals Etymologisk Ordbog. I have to stress the fact that this dictionary is fanatically pro-PIE and sees PIE roots everywhere. The guys know what meaning distorsion is the name for. But you can judge by yourselves :

hest : glda. hæst, no. hest, sv. häst, oldnord. hestr; af urnord. *hahistaR, germ. *hanhista- der er Verners vekselsform til germ. *hanqista-, se hingst. [...] Begge ord er superl. "best springende", dannet til ie *kak "springe, danse" ligesom fx lit. šókti "springe, danse", nasaleret šankìnti få (en hest) til at springe.

my translation:

hest : old Danish hæst, norwegian hest, swedish häst, old Norse hestr, from common Nordic *hahistaR, proto-Germanic *hanhista, which is the alternate proto-form of *hanqista (Verner's Law), see hingst. [...] Both words are actually a superlative "best jumping", built upon PIE *kak- "to jump", like f.ex the Lituanian šókti "to jump, to dance" and its nasalized form šankìnti "make (a horse) jump".


other jumping animals (my suggestions for forecoming etymologies):

rabbit
grasshopper
squirrel
salmon
frog
etc.

My contribution (I hope you'll like it): kangaroo, from PIE *kak- "to jump" (nasalized).

By the way, contrary to the kangaroo, the horse does not move by jumping, so let's face it : "hest" is not IE.
 
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A propos horses, here is the etymology for Danish "hest" (horse, same word in all the Scandinavian languages) according to the Gyldendals Etymologisk Ordbog. I have to stress the fact that this dictionary is fanatically pro-PIE and sees PIE roots everywhere. The guys know what meaning distorsion is the name for. But you can judge by yourselves :

hest : glda. hæst, no. hest, sv. häst, oldnord. hestr; af urnord. *hahistaR, germ. *hanhista- der er Verners vekselsform til germ. *hanqista-, se hingst. [...] Begge ord er superl. "best springende", dannet til ie *kak "springe, danse" ligesom fx lit. šókti "springe, danse", nasaleret šankìnti få (en hest) til at springe.

my translation:

hest : old Danish hæst, norwegian hest, swedish häst, old Norse hestr, from common Nordic *hahistaR, proto-Germanic *hanhista, which is the alternate proto-form of *hanqista (Verner's Law), see hingst. [...] Both words are actually a superlative "best jumping", built upon PIE *kak- "to jump", like f.ex the Lituanian šókti "to jump, to dance" and its nasalized form šankìnti "make (a horse) jump".


other jumping animals (my suggestions for forecoming etymologies):

rabbit
grasshopper
squirrel
salmon
frog
etc.

My contribution (I hope you'll like it): kangaroo, from PIE *kak- "to jump" (nasalized).

By the way, contrary to the kangaroo, the horse does not move by jumping, so let's face it : "hest" is not IE.

thanks for the joke, but I think you are very hard concerning the dan etymologists and by the way, a horse is not everytime moving by jumps BUT CAN JUMP - I don't pronounce myself about the last part of this etymology, but I think it 's a vauable HYPOTEHSIS -
concerning innovations in languages, I was speaking about evolutions of meanings or creation of new words by derivation or association of two words, we see everywhere in every language, almost...
 
'valuable' - 'hypothesis' - sorry, my fingers are swifter than my brain...
 
Yes, there is (apparently) no fricative in PIE but for *s. Hence PIE *kaval is impossible.

Interesting. It makes the most common name in Poland "Kowalski" none IE, in otherwise very IE language. :)
 
Interesting. It makes the most common name in Poland "Kowalski" none IE, in otherwise very IE language. :)

In a number of IE daughter languages (including Slavic, but also Latin and German, for instance), the sound *v arose from an earlier *w. Another typical way for *v to arise is from an earlier *b, which happened in Brythonic and (medieval to modern) Greek for instance. The latter also explains why the Cyrilic letter В has the value /v/ while a new letter for /b/ (Б) was invented.

My contribution (I hope you'll like it): kangaroo, from PIE *kak- "to jump" (nasalized).

By the way, contrary to the kangaroo, the horse does not move by jumping, so let's face it : "hest" is not IE.

:grin:

Yes, there is (apparently) no fricative in PIE but for *s. Hence PIE *kaval is impossible.

Not quite: you're forgetting the so-called laryngeals (*H[SUB]1[/SUB], *H[SUB]2[/SUB], *H[SUB]3[/SUB]), which were also fricatives.
 
Interesting. It makes the most common name in Poland "Kowalski" none IE, in otherwise very IE language. :)

Curiously enough, the Polish word kowal (smith) is probably one of the very few words of Celtic origins in Slavic, being originaly a borrowing from Gaulish goben (smith - "gof" in Breton). From Gaulish or from another old Celtic language. It is not a PIE word, unless you absolutely want to connect it with *g(h)eubh (to bend) as some linguists do. But Delamarre stresses that, contrary to bronze, iron was neither bent nor folded when worked. And "goben" points undoubdtedly to iron smiths.
 
Not quite: you're forgetting the so-called laryngeals (*H[SUB]1[/SUB], *H[SUB]2[/SUB], *H[SUB]3[/SUB]), which were also fricatives.

Yes, right, laryngeals... :grin: I remember one of my professors saying "why don't they admit that PIE had quite simply a A and a O and give us a break with their laryngeal hysteria ?". But yes, you're certainly right, they were constrictives, or something similar (fricatives maybe).
 
Yes, right, laryngeals... :grin: I remember one of my professors saying "why don't they admit that PIE had quite simply a A and a O and give us a break with their laryngeal hysteria ?". But yes, you're certainly right, they were constrictives, or something similar (fricatives maybe).

Well, I agree, and I disagree with your professor: my opinion is that PIE certainly had the laryngeals (obviously at the positions where they are reflected in Anatolian), but I agree with him in so far as that the "laryngeal soup" that some reconstructed proto-forms of words become, appear unlikely.
 
In a number of IE daughter languages (including Slavic, but also Latin and German, for instance), the sound *v arose from an earlier *w. Another typical way for *v to arise is from an earlier *b, which happened in Brythonic and (medieval to modern) Greek for instance. The latter also explains why the Cyrilic letter В has the value /v/ while a new letter for /b/ (Б) was invented.
.

I see. Let me play with it a bit. Theoretically we can go back in time and evolution of this word, like this: Kaval -> Kawal -> Kwal (kual)
Interestingly it brings us close to Albanian and Romanian "kal" for horse.

I looked through other languages outside europe too, and have to say that I couldn't find anything even remotely close to Cabal, Koval, Kual, Kal for horse or stallion. If it is not IE, it looks seriously local (Balkan) non-IE.

Other names for horse:
"At" and "Aygir" look Turkic to me. Mongolian "adu", possible East Steppe connection.

Interesting for stallion:
"žrebec" Slavic, "zirgas" Latvian, "zi" Armenian, "azarga" Mongolian (steppe connection?). Basque "Zaldi" doesn't seam to belong to this group.


Generally, there are so many names for horses, that domestication of horse didn't play a role in naming this animal. Looks more that horses existed everywhere in Eurasia, hens many local names.
 
Curiously enough, the Polish word kowal (smith) is probably one of the very few words of Celtic origins in Slavic, being originaly a borrowing from Gaulish goben (smith - "gof" in Breton). From Gaulish or from another old Celtic language. It is not a PIE word, unless you absolutely want to connect it with *g(h)eubh (to bend) as some linguists do. But Delamarre stresses that, contrary to bronze, iron was neither bent nor folded when worked. And "goben" points undoubdtedly to iron smiths.

Somehow it might be a polish construct of kon (horse) and wal (hit with hammer), hens konwal -> kowal (smith that makes iron horseshoes and installs them with nails to the hoofs.)
 
This one sounds pretty close to "horse", unfortunately the Greek ph is a reflexe of PIE *bh while Germanic h is a reflexe op PIE *k (or *k'). So it does not work.




I like this one much more than the Vulgar Latin *pullus for the French "poulain" (colt). Do you have an etymology ?



But *ekwo cannot yield ka- nor ca-, thus it doesn't work.


Well in Greek Ph and F = Φ no ph exists in words, but Φ Philip = Φιλιππος
so Φορβας can be connected with Germaniv Pherd Paard but different gender.
about Πωλος the word was used to express the young Horse (1 Year old) Donkey or Mule, Πωλος and the very small Πωλαριον (less than 1 year)
for example
olympic games with Horses 384BC
tεθριππον πωλων, συνωρις πωλων were olympic games with young horses
well if it is usefull in Olympic games the horses where named also as κοππατιες and σαμφορες but mainly due to the Marks S (( Ϟ ϟ Κοππα Qoppa) and Σ (Sigma) in their nail.

the idea is that since we have change in Celtic and Greek like Ikkos to Ippos then we might have something simmilar

BUT
I found something that might be usefull
ΚΑΛΠΗ. 496 Bc for first time, the female horses run,
dont know etymology but the run of female horses was named KΑλπη Kalpi-Kalpe
 
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I wonder do we know the size of the horse of 3500 BC? or even troyan war horse?

I wonder did the famous Arabian berber Turkic Horses existed when R1b entered Europe?

for example we know the most ancient horses in Europe was Equus Cabalus Skyros or Equus ferus Cabalus Thessalonian (Horse that entered balkans by Scythians)
could that horse make a difference?


Scyriano is mentioned that was the horse that Myceneans had in Troyan war and only Thracian Diomedes had the Scythian like Thessalonian. (I Think Homer say that Diomedes horses eat meat, thats why they were big)

these horses are very small so you can find them as ponies but they are horses,
in fact are some of the most ancient in Europe, so I wonder could that horses be the tremendous war machine that we are speaking?
Even Scythian horses Thessalonian (Scythians are considered as very connected with Horse) which where 2500 years after Yamna-Dunav road and younger in Balkans, have nothing to do with today horses, that are Arabic Berber Turkic etc.

So when we Speak that steppe people had horses, plz your mind don't go to Horses like modern ones in size, but to small less 110 cm height until scythian 120-125 cm (neck and head not included)

I link the video to see how tall were the ancient European horses.

Both horses, but especially Scyriano are considered very ancient in Europe
 
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Mare - horse female, English.

mare Basque, mara Estonian, mare Georgian, mare Lao, mare Norwegian


kobila Slavic, cavalla Italian, keve Latvian, kanca Hungarian (possible cognate with Slavic "kon"?)

euga Catalan, Portugues, yegua Spanish

stu Germanic
pele Albanian
iapa Romanian
klacz Polish
matak Armenian
tamma Finnish
forada Greek
khodi Hindi
larach Irish
equa Latin
kumele Lithuanian
kisrak Turkish
gaseg Welsh
 
I wonder do we know the size of the horse of 3500 BC? or even troyan horse?


for example we know the most ancient horses in Europe was Equus Cabalus Skyros or Equus ferus Cabalus Thessalonian (Horse that entered balkans by Scythians)
could that horse make a difference?

Mongols conquered half of the world on them! The smaller horses were still in use in europe till 19th century. It all could have started from Tarpan horse.
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Tarpan
 
Mare - horse female, English.

mare Basque, mara Estonian, mare Georgian, mare Lao, mare Norwegian


kobila Slavic, cavalla Italian, keve Latvian, kanca Hungarian (possible cognate with Slavic "kon"?)

euga Catalan, Portugues, yegua Spanish

stu Germanic
pele Albanian
iapa Romanian
klacz Polish
matak Armenian
tamma Finnish
forada Greek
khodi Hindi
larach Irish
equa Latin
kumele Lithuanian
kisrak Turkish
gaseg Welsh

Sorry, LeBrok, there is no Mare in Georgian. Maybe you refer to Merani which is late loan-word.
 
Sorry, LeBrok, there is no Mare in Georgian. Maybe you refer to Merani which is late loan-word.
It's not my fault, Google Translate did it. ;)
There is no continental connections anyway. The words are all over the map.
 
Mongols conquered half of the world on them! The smaller horses were still in use in europe till 19th century. It all could have started from Tarpan horse.
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Tarpan



Tarpan Turcoman Arabian Berber horses are newly horses in Europe, with max 2-2,5 milleniums history in Europe.
Scythians, Famous open valley - steppe people which culture use the horse very much, had max 120-130 cm Horses at 500 BC,

the only evidence of big horse is in ancient Egypt by Hyksos.

Tarpan may entered with Tatars or Huns in Europe.


Yet we do not know about Diomedes horses, but I guess should be taller than 130 cm
 
It's not my fault, Google Translate did it. ;)
There is no continental connections anyway. The words are all over the map.

I see. :) Apparently they haven't added this word to their Georgian vocabulary.

In any case Mare - ფაშატ-ი Phashat-i

I believe it's a loanword too..
 
Somehow it might be a polish construct of kon (horse) and wal (hit with hammer), hens konwal -> kowal (smith that makes iron horseshoes and installs them with nails to the hoofs.)

Excellent !

We can explore the matter further on : "konwalia" in Polish means "lily", what do you say about that ?
 
Scythians, Famous open valley - steppe people which culture use the horse very much, had max 120-130 cm Horses at 500 BC,

the only evidence of big horse is in ancient Egypt by Hyksos.

If I understand well, we have been invaded by blond warlike horsemen with big bronze swords mounted on 1,30m horses ?
 

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