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Thread: Harvard professor wants Neanderthal baby?

  1. #26
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    Quote Originally Posted by Kardu View Post
    Regarding child isolation issue etc. if Neanderthal cloning will be possible why just make one? :) Why not 10 and thus they will have their group
    If they make one Kardu I`m sure they wont stop at that, so yes they would have their group.

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    1 members found this post helpful.
    Quote Originally Posted by hope View Post
    If they make one Kardu I`m sure they wont stop at that, so yes they would have their group.
    Yes, I think too.
    I was musing for argument's sake :)
    In general I agree with you. No good will come out of Neanderthal cloning. Too many unsolved/unsolvable peacefully social/ethical problems in the world. Why artificially create a new one...

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    Quote Originally Posted by Maciamo View Post
    This comment is completely irrelevant to this discussion. Neanderthals are partially alive in all of us.
    I think you don't get what I wanted to say, or i did not express my shelve correct,

    yes Neanderdal lives partially among us but non of us say 'I am Neanderdalis',
    and since we all are partially Nenderdals means they can be perfect factories for vaccines.

    so their 'resurection' could be for what?

    1) to use them as factories for vaccines?
    2) to use them to cure cancers?
    3) to use them instead of hamsters or guinea pigs?
    4) to use them as an exhibit in an isolated island or a zoo?

    my intension in post was to pass a sarcastic feeling,
    I mean, the whole case has to do with the ability of a scientist to clone Neanderdal?
    or the need to clone Neanderdal?


    If Neanderdal could mate and give fertile descendants with Sapiens then it is the same to clone a human.
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    Quote Originally Posted by Kardu View Post
    Regarding child isolation issue etc. if Neanderthal cloning will be possible why just make one? :) Why not 10 and thus they will have their group
    Indeed, why not. It would be better for them socially. They wouldn't feel completely singled out.
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    Quote Originally Posted by Yetos View Post
    yes Neanderdal lives partially among us but non of us say 'I am Neanderdalis',
    and since we all are partially Nenderdals means they can be perfect factories for vaccines.
    According to autosomal results interpretation magic presumably I have 2.8% Neanderthal ancestry :)

    But I am full of doubts, as so far no one was able to convincingly demonstrate why don't we have any Neanderthal YDNA or MtDNA.

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    2 members found this post helpful.
    Quote Originally Posted by hope View Post
    Let`s be honest. if such a child were born tomorrow, the interest would be massive ( and that may be understating it) You said in a previous post you saw no reason why he should not live a normal life like any other person, do you really think he would be left to do that?
    I think you are overestimating the interest of the general population for genetics and anthropology. The truth is 99% of the people don't care at all about genetics, anthropology, developmental psychology and the like. When I discovered personal genomics test like 23andMe, I thought it was so amazing that everybody would want to take the test if they had the financial means. Now the price has fallen to a very democratic 99$, and I still find it nearly impossible to convince anybody (family or friends), even people in the medical profession, to take the test, or even show a little interest for it. The same is true for population genetics in general. This is completely beyond me. I just cannot understand why educated people would not want to learn about their origins, the roots of humanity, the genetic make-up of European countries, and so on. Most people just don't care. Why do they care about iPad, TV dramas, and football, but cannot gather the slightest interest for genetics ? That is one of the great mysteries of life, as far as I am concerned, and I am sure others on this forum have had similar experiences with their entourage. So no, I do not think that the birth of a Neanderthal child would gather nearly as much interest as the birth of Prince William and Kate's first baby. I would be surprised if the media coverage for the Neanderthal baby got 1% of the royal baby's attention. Be realistic, 99.99% of the people don't even know that they have Neanderthal genes in them, nor what exactly what a Neanderthal is.

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    Quote Originally Posted by Kardu View Post
    Yes, I think too.
    I was musing for argument's sake :)
    In general I agree with you. No good will come out of Neanderthal cloning. Too many unsolved/unsolvable peacefully social/ethical problems in the world. Why artificially create a new one...
    I am sure there will be more scientists to love and care about this Neanderthal baby that there are for most babies born in 'ordinary families'.

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    Quote Originally Posted by Maciamo View Post
    So no, I do not think that the birth of a Neanderthal child would gather nearly as much interest as the birth of Prince William and Kate's first baby. I would be surprised if the media coverage for the Neanderthal baby got 1% of the royal baby's attention. Be realistic, 99.99% of the people don't even know that they have Neanderthal genes in them, nor what exactly what a Neanderthal is.

    You might be over-estimating the interest regarding William and Kates baby...although I am sure it will be rather large.
    Unfortunately not all people need to understand what a Neanderthal is in order to discriminate.
    On the rest of your post I absolutely agree with the sentiment.
    Last edited by hope; 01-02-13 at 22:33.

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    Quote Originally Posted by Kardu View Post
    Yes, I think too.
    I was musing for argument's sake :)
    In general I agree with you. No good will come out of Neanderthal cloning. Too many unsolved/unsolvable peacefully social/ethical problems in the world. Why artificially create a new one...
    Well IMO, that`s pretty much hitting the nail on the head Kardu :)

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    Quote Originally Posted by Maciamo View Post
    I think you are overestimating the interest of the general population for genetics and anthropology. The truth is 99% of the people don't care at all about genetics, anthropology, developmental psychology and the like. When I discovered personal genomics test like 23andMe, I thought it was so amazing that everybody would want to take the test if they had the financial means. Now the price has fallen to a very democratic 99$, and I still find it nearly impossible to convince anybody (family or friends), even people in the medical profession, to take the test, or even show a little interest for it. The same is true for population genetics in general. This is completely beyond me. I just cannot understand why educated people would not want to learn about their origins, the roots of humanity, the genetic make-up of European countries, and so on. Most people just don't care. Why do they care about iPad, TV dramas, and football, but cannot gather the slightest interest for genetics ? That is one of the great mysteries of life, as far as I am concerned, and I am sure others on this forum have had similar experiences with their entourage.
    Could not agree more. Why everyone isn't obsessed or even concerned with their personal genetic code is a complete mystery to me too. But Maciamo, lately I have noticed a few folks listening with tilted ear when the subject is brought up. Some seemed almost frightened by DNA haplogroups--like it's taboo or something. Anybody else notice this reaction?
    Last edited by nordicfoyer; 01-02-13 at 16:04. Reason: add word

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    Quote Originally Posted by Maciamo View Post
    I am sure there will be more scientists to love and care about this Neanderthal baby that there are for most babies born in 'ordinary families'.
    Oh, I do not doubt that, but she or he would not have a 'normal' life as an adult and out of safety cocoon...

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    As I earlier mentioned in another thread let Church use his wife or daughter to incubate the Neanderthal that way the Neanderthal is actually his relative. IF it is a big mistake let him and the Neanderthal suffer the consequences. If it is boon then his family will be enriched. I think as a child Church may have watched 'Dr. Jekyll and Mr. Hyde' and saw that if the experiment is wrong it could lead to a nasty end. One thing should be noted. It was written during a period where scientists had a code of honour. They experimented on themselves thus if if things go wrong they are to blame and no on else would be harmed or minimized.

    Now he is asking for a "volunteer" putting himself above others so he does not sugffer the consequences of his good/bad decision.

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    Unless I missed some vital articles recently I had a perception that we managed only to decipher about half of Neanderthal DNA. There is still half of it missing to even start enlisting women to carry it in a womb.
    Regardless, even if we manage to get the full one, I don't think it will be a working copy. After 30 thousand years many letters inside DNA will be missing making is useless for quick transplant into human egg. I don't think we have a technology, or will have on in the close future, to fix genome, or make a new one, letter by letter. Technically it will be possible, but who will give them billions of dollars to play with it for decades?
    We might revisit this thread in 50 or 100 years when technology makes it possible and cheap, and I can put one of them in my kitchen. :) It just beats me what for? Do we lack races and varieties on this planet or people in general?
    He is not going to tell us how it was way back then, to teach us history that we missed, to be really useful.
    Be wary of people who tend to glorify the past, underestimate the present, and demonize the future.

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    Oriental, that's pure genius. What a great solution. I think I may have a slight improvement though, what if we have his own daughter carry the Neanderthal "experiment" instead of his wife? Quality assurance wouldn't be an issue.

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    Quote Originally Posted by LeBrok View Post
    Unless I missed some vital articles recently I had a perception that we managed only to decipher about half of Neanderthal DNA. There is still half of it missing to even start enlisting women to carry it in a womb.
    That's a good point.

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    Quote Originally Posted by oriental View Post
    As I earlier mentioned in another thread let Church use his wife or daughter to incubate the Neanderthal that way the Neanderthal is actually his relative. IF it is a big mistake let him and the Neanderthal suffer the consequences. If it is boon then his family will be enriched. I think as a child Church may have watched 'Dr. Jekyll and Mr. Hyde' and saw that if the experiment is wrong it could lead to a nasty end. One thing should be noted. It was written during a period where scientists had a code of honour. They experimented on themselves thus if if things go wrong they are to blame and no on else would be harmed or minimized.

    Now he is asking for a "volunteer" putting himself above others so he does not sugffer the consequences of his good/bad decision.
    His wife would be too old. How do you know he has a daughter ?

    Whoever carries this Neanderthal baby will be remembered by history as one of the great pioneers of scientific advancement, just like when Neil Armstrong first set foot on the Moon. Imagine, the first woman to give birth to a previously extinct subspecies of human ! How exciting !

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    So we are talking about the Ability and Glory to make a clone of a Human being,

    and not aout the need to do so, or how that Human will feel in a different world,

    the glory of Give life, no matter the need or the course and emotions of the creation,

    I was always got scared when I was watching movies about Frankestein






    in 1978 there was a movie about cloning, Boys from Brazil with Gregory Peck
    much even before Dolly's birth,

    if someone wants to watch it, here is a link

    http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=H58H_kAZZsY

    PS
    what I am afraid is the Virtue of that scientific effort
    cause science without Virtue is not wise as Aristotle said,
    Last edited by Yetos; 02-02-13 at 19:10.

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    Maciamo, Oriental is referring to the fact that many scientists are for experimenting on the human condition, as long as it's ANOTHER human's condition. The GMO controversy here in America is a prime example of that... I could make a list of utterly horrible experiments continued in the name of science (by multiple nations), but it's early morning here and I don't want to start the day too depressed. We should take the "what's good for the goose is good for the gander" approach.

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    If I had more time, I'd post a link to the WWII U.S. Army Captain, who rather than subject his men to dangerous G force experiments, acutally completed them on himself. I think he still has the world record for highest G force ever survived. There's a video of him surviving a high speed rocket rail stop-- he thought his eyes were going to pop out of his skull. They didn't thankfully; but his eyes did bleed and turned black, he briefly lost vision, but luckily he did fully recover.

    Now that's taking one for the team.

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    His wife would be too old. How do you know he has a daughter ?
    It doesn't have to be as mentioned but any family member would do.

    Imagine, the first woman to give birth to a previously extinct subspecies of human ! How exciting !
    Exciting NOT! Dolly the first sheep cloned died suddenly. The fusion of the sperm with egg in a natural process leads to a natural and healthy creature. Cloning involves an electric shock to fuse the genes. We know that Electromagnetic (EMF) waves can cause cancer and other disturbances. Who knows how the electric shock may have affected the organic genes. Cloning is a questionable process as applied to humans especially. This Neanderthal could suddenly die despite showing perfect external sign of perfect health.

    Genetics is in its infancy and there is a lot yet to be learned. For a decade or two there was talk of JUNK DNA. Ten years ago in another forum I pointed out it was not JUNK but an evolutionary trail of humans. Just like a city the old buildings shows the history of the city. I am not even a scientist and I pointed this out. It shows the calibre of the geneticists.

    Genetics also has a murky beginning. Watson and Frick without Franklin's knowledge took her x-rays of DNA and came out with the double helix. Watson had worked on a single helix and it was not proving successful. They were afraid of Linus Pauling who had already won two Nobel Prizes. Pauling also had a single helix in the works. Franklin was never mentioned. She died of cancer from all the x-ray exposure. There is much greed in biotechnology. First walk before running.

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    Quote Originally Posted by oriental View Post
    The fusion of the sperm with egg in a natural process leads to a natural and healthy creature.
    Natural yes, healthy mostly.
    We only play "god" for couple of decades on genetic level, and will take some time to understand all and improve technics to much or even exceed natural quality.
    Nature had almost a billion of years to experiment in sexing department, and still is far from being perfect, in human understanding of this term. It is estimated that about half of all human pregnancies are terminated, by nature, in first month, due to genetic complications of a fetus. One in 5 people or more live all life with some substantial genetic abnormalities (joint toes, week heart, "slow" in school and work, blind, etc) and die prematurely. To be honest I was never impressed much with nature, the blind and not caring "mother nature".
    I'm sure that in the future, once we completely understand how it works, we'll be able to improve upon design. And with human genius we can do this in hundred years, in what took a billion for blind nature.

    By no means I'm advocating alienating ourselves from nature. We are very in tune with our environment generally speaking, and for our own health shouldn't change it too much. I'm barely musing about improving and perfecting few things, so at the end of a day, we all will be beautiful, healthy and smart. :)



    I'm sure there will be some more effort in the future to bring back some extinct species. Most animals won't survive just because today's environment is different. For example, dinosaurs were used to 40% oxygen (21% today) in denser hotter and very moist air, their plant food source changed too, plus all their digestive bacterial flora (essential to digest food) is gone too.
    With the Neanderthals it will be easier because of short time laps since their demise, and earth not changing much since. But they would certainly have a problem adopting to agricultural/industrial way of life, or coping with addictive substances like alcohol and other drugs. Same problems experienced on big scale by aboriginal people of Australia or Canadian prairies, the pure hunter gatherers.

    To be honest I'm not looking forward to recreation of extinct species. But I wouldn't mind growing parts of them to see how they look. Let's grow dinosaur skin to finely see how it looked, with feathers or not.
    Our genetic knowledge will grow fast, and soon we will be in a position to tell, just by looking at DNA, what the animal looked like, what it ate, etc, without growing it in our labs. We will put DNA into super computer and it could show the full animal, how it moved, or what sounds it made, and see it in 3D.

    What about future pets though?
    PS. Can you imagine what weird pets people will have in the future, giving the technology? Maybe little griffin for someone, or a little flying dragon? Like T-rex looking lizard?

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    Quote Originally Posted by nordicfoyer View Post
    If I had more time, I'd post a link to the WWII U.S. Army Captain, who rather than subject his men to dangerous G force experiments, acutally completed them on himself. I think he still has the world record for highest G force ever survived. There's a video of him surviving a high speed rocket rail stop-- he thought his eyes were going to pop out of his skull. They didn't thankfully; but his eyes did bleed and turned black, he briefly lost vision, but luckily he did fully recover.

    Now that's taking one for the team.
    Just to clarify... the person I referred to is named John Paul Stapp M.D. PhD. He was a Colonel in the United States Air Force, and the main body of the afore mentioned experiments took place in the mid 1950's. Sorry for the confusion. The rest of it was accurate though, he really did take a few for the home team!

  23. #48
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    They are preparing Mars as they know they are screwing Earth.

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    Oriental, have you seen the NASA space shuttle videos of the hundreds of moving lights they claim are "space dust"? For some reason these lights hover over storm clouds-- maybe to recharge? Also, the elderly astronauts that went to the moon are now talking, and they openingly admit to seeing/being followed by alien craft.

    Youtube is the great equalizer!
    Last edited by nordicfoyer; 09-02-13 at 10:58. Reason: spelling

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    Quote Originally Posted by nordicfoyer View Post
    Oriental, have you seen the NASA space shuttle videos of the hundreds of moving lights they claim are "space dust"? For some reason these lights hover over storm clouds-- maybe to recharge? Also, the elderly astronauts that went to the moon are now talking, and they opening admit to seeing/being followed by alien craft.

    Youtube is the great equalizer!
    I can see the spirituality gene in you.

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