How Old Prussian were the East Prussian Germans?

Ok thank you for explaining. BTW - here is the approximate extent (ca. 65,800 km2) of the pre-conquest territory of Prussian tribes:

Prusai_Map.png


During years and centuries following the conquest of Old Prussians by Teutonic Knights with help of German, Polish, Russian and other European crusaders, groups of settlers started to settle in Prussia (some of those settlers of course eventually started to intermingle with local Old Prussian population):

- western and northern parts were destinations for mostly German settlers
- southern and eastern parts became destinations for mostly Polish settlers
- north-eastern parts became destinations for mostly Lithuanian settlers

I can give you some estimates for numbers of each group of settlers, as well as some maps showing distrubution of these three groups of settlers.
 
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Here are approximate directions of colonization by various ethnic groups of settlers: Polish settlers settled in regions which later became known as Masuria / Mazury (due to the fact that Poles who settled there were mostly Mazurs - that is, people from Mazovia), southern Warmia (Ermland), Powisle, southern Suvalkija and Podlasie. Lithuanian settlers settled in regions which later became known as Klein Litauen (Lithuania Minor / Prussian Lithuania / Mažoji Lietuva), Suvalkija and Memelland. Some Belarusians / East Slavs settled in Podlasie as well:

301og7o.jpg


German-made ethnic map from year 1847 showing divisions for German-majority, Lithuanian-majority and Polish-majority areas in East Prussia:

Red line = border of East Prussia:

Green colour (in the north-west) = territories with German-speaking majority
Yellow colour (in the south) = territories with Polish-speaking majority
Grey colour (in the north-east) = territories with Lithuanian-speaking majority

1847.png


Of course it shows only majorities in each area. But each group extended also beyond areas where they were majority.

For example when Prussia was Poland's vassal state, in 16th - 17th centuries, Poles were 30% of inhabitants of the city of Konigsberg.
 
Here are approximate directions of colonization by various ethnic groups of settlers: Polish settlers settled in regions which later became known as Masuria / Mazury (due to the fact that Poles who settled there were mostly Mazurs - that is, people from Mazovia), southern Warmia (Ermland), Powisle, southern Suvalkija and Podlasie. Lithuanian settlers settled in regions which later became known as Klein Litauen (Lithuania Minor / Prussian Lithuania / Mažoji Lietuva), Suvalkija and Memelland. Some Belarusians / East Slavs settled in Podlasie as well:

301og7o.jpg


German-made ethnic map from year 1847 showing divisions for German-majority, Lithuanian-majority and Polish-majority areas in East Prussia:

Red line = border of East Prussia:

Green colour (in the north-west) = territories with German-speaking majority
Yellow colour (in the south) = territories with Polish-speaking majority
Grey colour (in the north-east) = territories with Lithuanian-speaking majority

1847.png


Of course it shows only majorities in each area. But each group extended also beyond areas where they were majority.

For example when Prussia was Poland's vassal state, in 16th - 17th centuries, Poles were 30% of inhabitants of the city of Konigsberg.

thanks

But the area was always west-baltic culture, they then became prusi who where again a west-baltic race, they then lost to the teutonic knights from saxony and thuringia after a 60 year war, they remained this baltic race and even when the last person stopped speaking ancient prussian , they where still noted as a baltic race....................................What % remains of this ancient race would be a fantastic answer to find
 
Here are approximate directions of colonization by various ethnic groups of settlers: Polish settlers settled in regions which later became known as Masuria / Mazury (due to the fact that Poles who settled there were mostly Mazurs - that is, people from Mazovia), southern Warmia (Ermland), Powisle, southern Suvalkija and Podlasie. Lithuanian settlers settled in regions which later became known as Klein Litauen (Lithuania Minor / Prussian Lithuania / Mažoji Lietuva), Suvalkija and Memelland. Some Belarusians / East Slavs settled in Podlasie as well:



German-made ethnic map from year 1847 showing divisions for German-majority, Lithuanian-majority and Polish-majority areas in East Prussia:

Red line = border of East Prussia:

Green colour (in the north-west) = territories with German-speaking majority
Yellow colour (in the south) = territories with Polish-speaking majority
Grey colour (in the north-east) = territories with Lithuanian-speaking majority

1847.png


Of course it shows only majorities in each area. But each group extended also beyond areas where they were majority.

For example when Prussia was Poland's vassal state, in 16th - 17th centuries, Poles were 30% of inhabitants of the city of Konigsberg.

Thank you for explaining ethnic mixture of Prussia. I have to admit I knew nothing about Poles living in Warmia and Mazuria before 1945, although I was educated in Poland in 70s and 80s. For some unexplained reason nothing was mentioned much about Polish settlers there. To my understanding, after last Prussian speaker died around in eighteenth century, it was all uniform german culture since.
I was always wondering why in Mazury there are many polish sounding geographic names, either villages or lakes. I thought that German names were substituted by Polish ones after last war. However I couldn't explain why they were inconsistent in name changing and left out many still German sounding cities. Thanks to you I have my explanation now.

One thing baffles me though. If Polish and Lithuanian minorities in Prussia could exercise some cultural tolerance and survive till WW2. Why is that ethnic Prussians disappeared?
Was Prussia before very sparsely populated?
 
thanks

But the area was always west-baltic culture,
What is your definition of always? Pre 12th century? Last few hundred years it was German culture.


they then became prusi who where again a west-baltic race,
Could you be more precise when expressing your thoughts? You are addressing the post with 1847 ethnic divisions! We are not in your head and we don't have a clue what you mean by Always or Then.

, they remained this baltic race and even when the last person stopped speaking ancient prussian , they where still noted as a baltic race
Who did refer to them as a Baltic Race? As you can see from Tomenable explanation, population of Prussia consisted mainly of Poles, Lithuanians and Germans, not necessarily in this order.
Are you saying that you know more about population of Prussia than Prussian cartographer who created this map?
 
What is your definition of always? Pre 12th century? Last few hundred years it was German culture.

:wary2:might depend on the nation..........i was born in australia with dual citizenship and my sons are dual as well, so, I guess 2 to 3 generations after the last person has disappeared. But then again, nationalism brought in a lot of lies into society in regards to ethnicity.
Then again, the scots seem to have lasted as a seperate identity even without a nation for over 200 years.

you let me know


Could you be more precise when expressing your thoughts? You are addressing the post with 1847 ethnic divisions! We are not in your head and we don't have a clue what you mean by Always or Then.

1,847 what

Who did refer to them as a Baltic Race? As you can see from Tomenable explanation, population of Prussia consisted mainly of Poles, Lithuanians and Germans, not necessarily in this order.
Are you saying that you know more about population of Prussia than Prussian cartographer who created this map?

american historian/archeologists Maria G.

What do you think the original prusi where?
Old Prussians

Ethnic group
The Old Prussians or Baltic Prussians were an ethnic group of indigenous Baltic tribes that inhabited Prussia, the lands of the southeastern Baltic Sea in the area around the Vistula and Curonian Lagoons.

states baltic tribes to me:grin:
 
american historian/archeologists Maria G.

What do you think the original prusi where?
Old Prussians

Ethnic group
The Old Prussians or Baltic Prussians were an ethnic group of indigenous Baltic tribes that inhabited Prussia, the lands of the southeastern Baltic Sea in the area around the Vistula and Curonian Lagoons.

states baltic tribes to me:grin:
And what this has to do with 1847 Prussia?
 
One thing baffles me though. If Polish and Lithuanian minorities in Prussia could exercise some cultural tolerance and survive till WW2. Why is that ethnic Prussians disappeared?
Was Prussia before very sparsely populated?
This thread shows that modern East Prussian ancestry people have 28% of N. Which would imply that more or less the same people (ok, according to Sparkey about 50% of male lineages) stayed there for centuries before and after crusades and changed their language to German (N is Balts thing here, neither immigrants from Poland, nor Germany had it in numbers). One problem though is we can't differentiate Prussian Balts from Lithuanian Balts...

btw, Sparkey, do you know of their surnames? Are they all Germans now?
 
And what this has to do with 1847 Prussia?

Posts 41 and 42 go together

Tome* stated in #41
I can give you some estimates for numbers of each group of settlers, as well as some maps showing distrubution of these three groups of settlers.
then he continued it in #42, did'nt you read it?
 
This thread shows that modern East Prussian ancestry people have 28% of N. Which would imply that more or less the same people (ok, according to Sparkey about 50% of male lineages) stayed there for centuries before and after crusades and changed their language to German (N is Balts thing here, neither immigrants from Poland, nor Germany had it in numbers). One problem though is we can't differentiate Prussian Balts from Lithuanian Balts...

btw, Sparkey, do you know of their surnames? Are they all Germans now?

surnames would not help as many due to nationalism where forced to change their surnames ( happens in every country)

but, I agree, lithuanian balts and prussian balts are similar ..........more so than with polish or german.

Aslo ancient "prussian balts" had flat bed graves which is also found from east of lower vistula river to as far north as somogotia ......This system is noted as west-baltic culture
 
Posts 41 and 42 go together

Tome* stated in #41
I can give you some estimates for numbers of each group of settlers, as well as some maps showing distrubution of these three groups of settlers.
then he continued it in #42, did'nt you read it?
Who argues that they don't go together? They are very well written by Tomenable.
On other hand your post #43 is from another temporal dimension, with extremely incoherent and vague meaning and claims. Reread your post and tell us how it fits in 1847 Prussia.

Can you substantiate this claim:
when the last person stopped speaking ancient prussian , they where still noted as a baltic race
Or is it your own invention? Once you at it, could you share with us your definition of race, and difference between Baltic race and Slavic for example?
 
surnames would not help as many due to nationalism where forced to change their surnames ( happens in every country)e
I'd argue that for N people there German surnames would mean Old Prussian origin, Lithuanian ones later immigration from Lithuania. Just assumption.
 
I'd argue that for N people there German surnames would mean Old Prussian origin, Lithuanian ones later immigration from Lithuania. Just assumption.

Actually this is a pretty good point, it seems that the frequency of non-German names in EastP is greatest in haplogroup N, which could suggest that the amount of Old Prussian is being overstated. N was the high end outlier anyway. R1b seems to also be somewhat overstated by some people who probably don't belong in the project. In general though, the EastP data needs to be improved, there's no doubting that.
 
I checked Sile's link and surnames by haplo.

I1 - Miller, Fett, unknown, Baltrusch, Gatzke.
N - Wannagat, Lukoševičius, Baltrusch, Darge, Bannuscher, couple unknowns
R1a - a lot of surnames, and looks valid for most. Franz Pallaschke b.1883 is the best example on how I expect Germanized Old Prussian. Pallaschke is Pelašķis, plant used in herbal teas.
R1b - more Britts than others, including John Kennedy (?), but some valid German data.

Actually I was wrong on surnames. Prussian Lithuanians had Germanized Baltic ones, and I believe Old Prussians had also German/Germanized Baltic. See below, behindthename has some examples of Germanic surnames from Old Prussian language:
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Prussian_Lithuanians#Personal_names
http://surnames.behindthename.com/submit/names/usage/german-east-prussian

So, it is quite a mess. I don't think it is possible to tell Old Prussian from Lithuanian genetically, also both surnames for Old Prussians and Prussian Lithuanians are Baltic ones Germanized.. So best we could do is find a) ethnic Germans who claim East Prussian ancestry; and b) find if there are Baltic genes in them. But we won't be able to tell where those Baltic genes came from.
Btw - Lithuanian proportion of R1a and N is the same as in Old Prussian reference sample. OldP used in this thread has more R1b, but given how much strange R1b is added to East Prussian project, it could be same for R1b in Old Prussian estimate. So maybe assumption can be made that all Baltic tribes shared at least on 1200 AD and still share ~ the same R1a+N1c proportion.
 
Good analysis arvistro, let me know if you want me to get new estimates based on different percentages, like maybe excluding all other than the ones you find likely to genuinely belong to a proper EastP group. I suppose that such a group would be relatively high in R1a, which makes sense considering that the unfiltered group has lower R1a compared to what we would actually expect.
 
I will look through that once I have time. In the meantime I was caught by this guy:
Joannes Reihs, ca. 1800, Bischofstein, Ostpreußen.

His surname is intriguing. This is from unrelated wiki article: "Gothic reihs compared to Latin rex". I could not find in google origins for that surname, people with this surname live in Germany (origin from East Prussia), Poland and Latvia. Etimology must be of that of rex, 'reich' has to do with ruling in German, so those giving him the surname should have known the meaning. It has Baltic -s ending though. Also in Baltic languages similar words are attested - 'Rīks' is a 'tool' in modern Latvian, 'rīkot' is 'to organize' in Latvian, 'izrīkot' to rule out.

His haplo is intriguing. It is N1C1 Baltic L1025+, but is negative for known subgroups in eupedia (L591-, L551- Gediminids/Jagellons, L1027- Prince Giedrus clan).

So, we have a guy with surname of meaning of Gothic ruler, haplo ancestral to Baltic nobility and then there is this Old Prussian legend mythology of "According to the legend, Widewuto and Bruteno were kings of the Cimbri.[3] Driven out by the Goths from their homeland, the Cimbri arrived to Ulmiganea, inhabited by rather primitive people who had no agriculture or cities.[4] Widewuto and Bruteno civilized the region and named it Prussia after Bruteno (Pruteno)." Events according to legend dated about 6th century AD.

Interesting, although 1) how come Cimbri rulers were N1c1? Maybe those were not Cimbri, maybe those were variangians. 2) maybe the surname means nothing. Some local guy just wanted to feel important :)
 
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Good analysis arvistro, let me know if you want me to get new estimates based on different percentages, like maybe excluding all other than the ones you find likely to genuinely belong to a proper EastP group. I suppose that such a group would be relatively high in R1a, which makes sense considering that the unfiltered group has lower R1a compared to what we would actually expect.
Ok, I will keep only German/Germanized surnames there.
I1 - Miller, Fett, Baltrusch, Gatzke (dropped unknown)
I2 - Oberst, Ruse, Nath, Hertel, Hering (I dropped Rimek, that is Polish surname)
N - Dunkel, Malmgren, Dargel, Reihs, Wannagat, Baltrusch, Darge, Bannuscher (I dropped Lithuanian surnames)
R1A - Glass, Schoenbach, Ermis, Krantz, Lichtenstein, Kaubre, Patz, Nisleit, Kurschus, Schroeder, Pallaschke (dropped Polish/Lithuanian/unknown)
R1B - Ursinus (?), Preuschoff, buchner, Krause, Quiring, Arlhofer, Völkner, Buchner, Pack (dropped Brittish, unknowns, but kept some Austrian German + Finnic Ursinus who descended from Prussia)

In total we have
4 I1 - 11%
5 I2 - 14%
8 N - 22%
11 R1A - 30%
9 R1B - 24%
Total - 37

I bolded those who seemed to me least Germanic or had Preus something, some of them for sure Germanized Baltic. If we only count those surnames, then
2 I1 - 13%
1 I2 - 7%
6 N - 40%
5 R1A - 33%
1 R1B - 7%
Total - 15

Guys with Germanized Baltic/Prussian surnames looks similar to Lithuanians. Big sample however has more R1B. Nothing surprising :)
 
Ok, I will keep only German/Germanized surnames there.
I1 - Miller, Fett, Baltrusch, Gatzke (dropped unknown)
I2 - Oberst, Ruse, Nath, Hertel, Hering (I dropped Rimek, that is Polish surname)
N - Dunkel, Malmgren, Dargel, Reihs, Wannagat, Baltrusch, Darge, Bannuscher (I dropped Lithuanian surnames)
R1A - Glass, Schoenbach, Ermis, Krantz, Lichtenstein, Kaubre, Patz, Nisleit, Kurschus, Schroeder, Pallaschke (dropped Polish/Lithuanian/unknown)
R1B - Ursinus (?), Preuschoff, buchner, Krause, Quiring, Arlhofer, Völkner, Buchner, Pack (dropped Brittish, unknowns, but kept some Austrian German + Finnic Ursinus who descended from Prussia)

In total we have
4 I1 - 11%
5 I2 - 14%
8 N - 22%
11 R1A - 30%
9 R1B - 24%
Total - 37

I bolded those who seemed to me least Germanic or had Preus something, some of them for sure Germanized Baltic. If we only count those surnames, then
2 I1 - 13%
1 I2 - 7%
6 N - 40%
5 R1A - 33%
1 R1B - 7%
Total - 15

Guys with Germanized Baltic/Prussian surnames looks similar to Lithuanians. Big sample however has more R1B. Nothing surprising :)

Interesting. If I understood right it will make Germen blood rich in R1b, which is no surprise, but also same R1a level as original Prussians, and with rather low N.
 

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