How Old Prussian were the East Prussian Germans?

Thanks, I'll use the "total" numbers. Scaling out I2, I have:
R1a: 34%
R1b: 28%
N: 25%
I1: 13%
Maybe I shouldn't do this, but I2 hasn't been so large in any sample group until now. I2 isn't that helpful unless we divide it into I2-M223 and I2a-Din, and then the percentages drop. I think that the I2a-Din is mainly indicative of Polish input anyway, rather than Old Prussian input, so a future calculation with better samples groups may have to try to take 3 source populations into account. N still seems to be the main indicator of Old Prussian input.

Anyway, we get:
Per R1a: 30%
Per R1b: 55%
Per N: 62%
Per I1: 48%
Average: 49%
Adjusted average: 48%

About the same, but less noisy.
 
I am trying to find something on Livonian (modern Latvian/Estonian) nobility. To find how much of Baltic German barons were from Order brothers and how much if any from locals.
Have not found anything yet.
 
Sorry for absence, I'm busy in RL recently, I will answer your questions and give more info on East Prussia's population's origins as soon as possible.

BTW - I posted one new post in another thread and I got a message that it is awaiting moderator's approval before it apears. What's the reason for this?

I later wanted to edit that post (change a few things and add some new stuff) but I couldn't because it is still not there (still awaiting approval perhaps).

=============

Edit: Here I got no such message (in this thread moderator's approvals are not required?).
 
BTW - I posted one new post in another thread and I got a message that it is awaiting moderator's approval before it apears. What's the reason for this?
No reason. Sometimes it happens even for moderators.
 
So there we have it. On the Y line, the East Prussian Germans were about half Old Prussian.

When you mention "Old Prussian", do you mean, as in Baltic? Not German Prussians? (Extinct Prussian Balts: Relative to Lithuanians?)

I can certainly see the possibility that East Germans and Northern Polish people could share some Prussian/Baltic DNA. (From what I gathered, the original Prussians were Balts relative to Lithuanians and Latvians; although their culture and language is far extinct.)
 
Hello arvistro,

it is quite amusing to find one's own data (the tested Y-Haplogroup and the name of my great-great-great-great grandfather) in a public forum.

If You'd like to learn a bit more (although there is not that much to be learned, I am afraid) just give me a shout.

Kind regards,


Oliver Rei? (Reiss, Reihs, ...)
 
Hello arvistro,

it is quite amusing to find one's own data (the tested Y-Haplogroup and the name of my great-great-great-great grandfather) in a public forum.

If You'd like to learn a bit more (although there is not that much to be learned, I am afraid) just give me a shout.

Kind regards,


Oliver Rei� (Reiss, Reihs, ...)
For starters do you know original or first attested version of the surname?
It looks to me Old Prus/Latvian -s ending on top of root. Reih+s or Reis+s. But I could also be wrong since you had politician Wawereit I guess who is also Prussian/Lithuanian but without -s.
Also which place does he come from exactly? I guess you have not found anyone of deeper ancestry? Do you know his occupation?
Sorry for millions of questions :) Reih-s is a ruler in Gothic and Reik-s in Old Prussian, so this option is intriguing. Reiss on other hand might not be so fun.
 
prussians were originally baltic russians, prussia is the shortcut of POBALTSKAJA RUS in language
no wonder when the modern so called germans have a lot of slavic and celtic blood, the original germanic tribes were haplogroup I
the slavs and celts are haplogroup R, just look which haplogroup is the most dominant in germany. it is the haplogroup R
in fact most german cities were slavic settlements before germany came to be
lipsko/leipzig, chemnica/chemnitz, drezdjany/dresden, roztok/rostock, pomorje/pommern, brlina/berlin
 
prussians were originally baltic russians, prussia is the shortcut of POBALTSKAJA RUS in language

Sorry, that is wrong. The Old Prussians clearly were speakers of a Baltic, not a Slavic one. Other than Polish (there were Poles present in the area of southern Masuria already in the times of the Kingdom of Prussia), there was no (significant) presence of Slavic speakers before 1945.

no wonder when the modern so called germans have a lot of slavic and celtic blood, the original germanic tribes were haplogroup I
the slavs and celts are haplogroup R, just look which haplogroup is the most dominant in germany. it is the haplogroup R

That's a very simplified (and wrong, at that) view of Haplogroups R1a and R1b. Both Haplogroup R1a and R1b clearly were present in Central Europe much earlier: the earliest attestation, to my knowledge, of R1a in Central Europe is from Eulau, ca. 2600 BC (Corded Ware culture), and likewise, of R1b from Kromsdorf, ca. 2600-2500 BC (Bell Beaker Culture).

Its plausible that both R1a and R1b were tied with the expansion of the Indo-Europeans, but to equate R1a with "Slavic" and R1b with "Celtic" gives a completely incorrect picture.

in fact most german cities were slavic settlements before germany came to be
lipsko/leipzig, chemnica/chemnitz, drezdjany/dresden, roztok/rostock, pomorje/pommern, brlina/berlin

For the area of eastern Germany (where all the cities, and the region of Pommerania, that you enumerated, are located), as well as the eastern part of modern Schleswig-Holstein (Lübeck, notably), this is indeed true. Most towns there date from the early medieval ages and were founded by the West Slavic tribes which settled there during the migration period. However, for the rest of Germany this isn't the truth, because there never was a large scale West Slavic settlement west of the rivers Elbe and Saale (the Thuringian Saale river, that is). Further, west of the Rhine and south of the Danube, towns in Germany largely date from the Roman period (as these areas were part of the Roman Empire), and in addition to Latin (eg. "Köln" - Colonia Agrippina and "Regensburg" - Castra Regina), you also often have Celtic names in these area (e.g. "Neumagen" - Noviomagus, "Worms" - Borbetomagus). Beyond that, most town names in Germany are, who might have guessed, of German(ic) origin... :p
 
Sorry, that is wrong. The Old Prussians clearly were speakers of a Baltic, not a Slavic one. Other than Polish (there were Poles present in the area of southern Masuria already in the times of the Kingdom of Prussia), there was no (significant) presence of Slavic speakers before 1945.



That's a very simplified (and wrong, at that) view of Haplogroups R1a and R1b. Both Haplogroup R1a and R1b clearly were present in Central Europe much earlier: the earliest attestation, to my knowledge, of R1a in Central Europe is from Eulau, ca. 2600 BC (Corded Ware culture), and likewise, of R1b from Kromsdorf, ca. 2600-2500 BC (Bell Beaker Culture).

Its plausible that both R1a and R1b were tied with the expansion of the Indo-Europeans, but to equate R1a with "Slavic" and R1b with "Celtic" gives a completely incorrect picture.



For the area of eastern Germany (where all the cities, and the region of Pommerania, that you enumerated, are located), as well as the eastern part of modern Schleswig-Holstein (Lübeck, notably), this is indeed true. Most towns there date from the early medieval ages and were founded by the West Slavic tribes which settled there during the migration period. However, for the rest of Germany this isn't the truth, because there never was a large scale West Slavic settlement west of the rivers Elbe and Saale (the Thuringian Saale river, that is). Further, west of the Rhine and south of the Danube, towns in Germany largely date from the Roman period (as these areas were part of the Roman Empire), and in addition to Latin (eg. "Köln" - Colonia Agrippina and "Regensburg" - Castra Regina), you also often have Celtic names in these area (e.g. "Neumagen" - Noviomagus, "Worms" - Borbetomagus). Beyond that, most town names in Germany are, who might have guessed, of German(ic) origin... :p

We must presume that baltic language is far older than slavic language and that slavic is a southern branch of Baltic. I see no ancient historian having known about any slavic , so its only IMO a language that was around in a small pocket in northern Ukraine pre year zero and florished in AD times to breakout in the darkages as we see
 
We must presume that baltic language is far older than slavic language and that slavic is a southern branch of Baltic. I see no ancient historian having known about any slavic , so its only IMO a language that was around in a small pocket in northern Ukraine pre year zero and florished in AD times to breakout in the darkages as we see
This is new to me!
 
We must presume that baltic language is far older than slavic language and that slavic is a southern branch of Baltic. I see no ancient historian having known about any slavic , so its only IMO a language that was around in a small pocket in northern Ukraine pre year zero and florished in AD times to breakout in the darkages as we see
come on slavic is one of the oldest languages in the world it is completely rooted in sanskrit! all INDOeuropeans came out of INDIA and migrated into europe this is why now the haplogroup R is so dominant in western and eastern europe and of course our urheimat in india.. ever wondered why we resemble strongly indians?!

yxt76wrdm.jpg


in fact slavs are the most dominant ethnic group of europe!

Its plausible that both R1a and R1b were tied with the expansion of the Indo-Europeans, but to equate R1a with "Slavic" and R1b with "Celtic" gives a completely incorrect picture.
if you compare the haplogroup map of europe with the languages in those areas it makes a logical sense to conclude haplogroup I1 is the root of germanic tribes, R1b of celtic and R1a of slavic tribes. it is obvious!
 
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Well, both the Baltic and Slavic languages are often said to be from a common Balto-Slavic tongue descended from the original Indo-European tongue. The Balto-Slavic speech diverged into separate Baltic and Slavic branches each of which gave rise to new languages in turn. Certainly, the dividing line between Balt and Slav was never clear and distinct.

While the Baltic-speaking Old Prussians were absorbed by the Germans, the Baltic-speaking peoples of what is now Belarus were absorbed by the Slavs. The East-Baltid racial type is common among the North Slavs and among Balts such as Latvians and Lithuanians. The pagan Slav deity Perun is essentially the same as the Baltic Perkunas/Perkons.

More importantly, while the name “Prussia” originally referred only to the land between the rivers Vistula and Memel (and was thus Baltic-speaking) the political entity under the Hohenzollerns called “Prussia” would later expand to take in areas which were indubitably once Slavic. Slavic languages were once spoken over much of what later became Germany, as far west as the rivers Elbe and Saale and beyond, as the Slav Wagrians of Holstein attest.

A Slav language was spoken on the island of Rügen until around AD 1400, this island having pagan Slav shrines. The Slav Obodrite people of Mecklenburg retained their language until the Eighteenth Century. All these peoples were assimilated by the Germans. The Slavic Sorbs (Wends) of the Lausitz region to the east of Dresden retain their language and identity to this day, the northern Sorb dialect being like Polish, the southern Sorb dialect is like Czech.

The Slavs have left a legacy of placenames throughout what was once Prussia. Pomerania (once again Slavic) derives its name from the old Slavic tribe the Pomoryanie, whose name means “by the sea,” which renders into modern Polish as Pomorze, a more accurate transcription from the old Slavic than the German “Pommern” which was a corruption of this. Leipzig was once the Slavic Lipsk from “Lipa” (lime tree). Chemnitz derives from the Slavic root “Kamien” (stone).

Placenames of Slavic origin include those ending with the suffixes –ow, -in (as in Berlin), -au (as in Spandau) and –itz (as in Colditz and Auschwitz).
 
come on slavic is one of the oldest languages in the world it is completely rooted in sanskrit! all INDOeuropeans came out of INDIA and migrated into europe this is why now the haplogroup R is so dominant in western and eastern europe and of course our urheimat in india.. ever wondered why we resemble strongly indians?!

yxt76wrdm.jpg


in fact slavs are the most dominant ethnic group of europe!


if you compare the haplogroup map of europe with the languages in those areas it makes a logical sense to conclude haplogroup I1 is the root of germanic tribes, R1b of celtic and R1a of slavic tribes. it is obvious!

your scenario does not fit with Roman or greek historians ..........
 
your scenario does not fit with Roman or greek historians ..........
it does not have to because genetics and linguistics prove my point.. i do not believe mainstream history i first prove the accuracy of history through science because anyone could write anything to fit his agenda.
 
your scenario does not fit with Roman or greek historians ..........
more proof:

you can compare her by dna to any slavic, germanic or celtic woman except she is not depigmented!
4596994b00ad1.jpg

faye.jpg

View attachment 6922

R1_A_MALES.jpg

View attachment 6923

The Roman historian Cornelius Tacitus (56-118 A.D.) said this about the Germanic tribes (Not the same as Germans): All have fierce blue eyes, red hair, huge frames, fit only for a sudden exertion. (by the way the romans and greeks were originally from the haplogroup J and their enemies from haplogroup R(the so called red haired barbarians) sacked in from the east and north europe!
https://farm9.staticflickr.com/8253/8676203150_d05bfca903.jpg

this depigmented indian child fits nicely into roman history description..
alba.jpg
 
more proof:

you can compare her by dna to any slavic, germanic or celtic woman except she is not depigmented!
View attachment 6925

View attachment 6927

View attachment 6922

View attachment 6926

View attachment 6923

The Roman historian Cornelius Tacitus (56-118 A.D.) said this about the Germanic tribes (Not the same as Germans): All have fierce blue eyes, red hair, huge frames, fit only for a sudden exertion. (by the way the romans and greeks were originally from the haplogroup J and their enemies from haplogroup R(the so called red haired barbarians) sacked in from the east and north europe!
https://farm9.staticflickr.com/8253/8676203150_d05bfca903.jpg

this depigmented indian child fits nicely into roman history description..
View attachment 6924

since 1970 when a private family donated the original tacitus papers to a museum in Rome , access to texts has been given to certain scholars, the concensus is that tacitus does not know what he is talking about, that he was never in the vicinity etc etc......... we are only left with ptolemy as the most accurate historian in the area we are speaking about.
watch for the future as scholars disect tacitus works............IMO it will not be as bad as Jordanes, but it will be close.
 
For starters do you know original or first attested version of the surname?
It looks to me Old Prus/Latvian -s ending on top of root. Reih+s or Reis+s. But I could also be wrong since you had politician Wawereit I guess who is also Prussian/Lithuanian but without -s.
Also which place does he come from exactly? I guess you have not found anyone of deeper ancestry? Do you know his occupation?
Sorry for millions of questions :) Reih-s is a ruler in Gothic and Reik-s in Old Prussian, so this option is intriguing. Reiss on other hand might not be so fun.

Hello,

as there is quite a bit of family history involved I sent you a direct message.

In short: our name is supposed to be from South Germany.


Kind regards,


Alfhari
 
So Veneti were/are R1a M-558, Germans were R1a M-458 (look at Herodotus map - down, right corner) and Balts were N1c + M558 people? When Celts (and Normans with I1) won over west "German" tribe they named themselves "Germans" and mixed language?

I have a friend with Gajda name. it could be not only from bagpipe music instrument but also from old prussian Gaidys which means cock or wheat.
 

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