(offtopic about Albanian)

[zanipolo]

Because the "nations" in the past were far more different from the modern ones. The equation: 'one nation one language' is valid only when applied to the modern nations. It's very hard to say, what an ancient author meant by using the word nation, or the equivalent to it. I look at the nations in thepast not as an ethnic group, but rather as religious groups, and that in thecase of the Hellenes was very evident. This might have been the case of the Illyrians too and that's the reason they both disappeared from the history. But in that region was a very ancient nation called EPIROTES, that according toStrabo and MANY others were part of the mythical Pelasgians:

Strabo 5.2.4


and their names survived during the Medieval times as Albanians

and their land(Epirus) which according the same sources was in the limits ofthe Ancient Greece was the synonym to Albania:

These were the people where Albanians come from:

The ethnic connection to the ancient Illyrians whose their original homelandwas Liburnia(up north Balkans) is somehow unclear, but by taking in consideration that nothing but Albanians appear to have lived in the mostremote and unreachable areas of that region apparently repelled there from different invaders, makes them the sole survivors of the Epirotes and Illyrians and Macedonians.

All I am talking about is that albanian cannot be illyrian and I care little about medieval period .

you need to get you act together....it seems you are fabricating stories


end of story

 

[Yetos]

I will keep showing you the evidences, meanwhile I will let you going on with your Zeusphobia and Albanophobia.
In 1630 Johann-Heinrich Alsted, in his book
Encyclopaedia septem tomis distincta:

was answering the question: Which part of the World is called Albania?

His answer was:

A large part of (Ancient) Macedonia and totally (ancient) Epirus.

@ ZEUS10



SORY BY POSTING MANY WRITERS OF last Millenium, you are not convicing,
WE ALL KNOW THAT ALBANIAN EXISTED AS LANGUAGE AT MEDIEVAL TIMES
WE ALL KNOW KNOW THAT MODEN ALBANIA HAS A MAJOR ANCIENT GENTICAL ILLYRIAN PART,
WE ALL KNOW THAT MOERN ALBANIA IS LANGUAGE THAT ENTER ILLYRIA AFTER ILLYRIAN and DACIAN WARS.
WE ALL KNOW THAT EPIROTES ARE THE (ΗΠΕΙΡΟΤΕΣ) THE MAINLAND GREEKS (ΝΗΣΙΩΤΕΣ ΚΑΙ ΗΠΕΙΡΟΤΕΣ)
with term Ηπειρωτικη ΕΛλαδα we mean the Epiros and Thessaly and Upper Makedonia.
THE WORD EPIRROTES (ΗΠΕΙΡΟΤΕΣ) MEANS CONTINENTALS.

I repeat your enemy is you,

 

[DejaVu]

These people called Albanians are not Albanians. They are Shqiptars. The word Albania or Albanians came from latin. Shqiptar or Shqiperi(a) identity have nothing to do with Albania or the Albanian territory. Make a clear distinction when you talk about history and genetics. Not the same.

 

[Eldritch]

These people called Albanians are not Albanians. They are Shqiptars. The word Albania or Albanians came from latin. Shqiptar or Shqiperi(a) identity have nothing to do with Albania or the Albanian territory. Make a clear distinction when you talk about history and genetics. Not the same.

You probably haven't a clear understanding of the situation.
Why Albanian communities in Italy and Greece call themselves respectively Arbereshe and Arvanite?

 

[Zemra]

These people called Albanians are not Albanians. They are Shqiptars. The word Albania or Albanians came from latin. Shqiptar or Shqiperi(a) identity have nothing to do with Albania or the Albanian territory. Make a clear distinction when you talk about history and genetics. Not the same.

'Shqiptar' is a term appearing later, first noted in the 18th century. The original name Albanians called themselves was Arbër (Tosk), Arbën (Gheg), Arbëreshë (in Italy), while the area inhabited was called Arbëria (Tosk), Arbënia (Gheg), Arbanon which is derived from the name in classical antiquity.

Most linguists link the term 'Shqiptar' with the verb 'shqiptoj', 'to pronounce', meaning the Albanian ethnogenesis is related to the group of people speaking the same language. It's not unprecedented. Or according to Albanians, it's related to the eagle 'shqipe', 'shqype', 'shqiponjë' (depending on the region), which is the national symbol.

The continuity between 'Arbër' and 'Shqiptar' it's documented, so no need to put the unequal sign with 'Albanian' and 'Shqiptar'. It is about the same people.

 

[zanipolo]

'Shqiptar' is a term appearing later, first noted in the 18th century. The original name Albanians called themselves was Arbër (Tosk), Arbën (Gheg), Arbëreshë (in Italy), while the area inhabited was called Arbëria (Tosk), Arbënia (Gheg), Arbanon which is derived from the name in classical antiquity.

Most linguists link the term 'Shqiptar' with the verb 'shqiptoj', 'to pronounce', meaning the Albanian ethnogenesis is related to the group of people speaking the same language. It's not unprecedented. Or according to Albanians, it's related to the eagle 'shqipe', 'shqype', 'shqiponjë' (depending on the region), which is the national symbol.

The continuity between 'Arbër' and 'Shqiptar' it's documented, so no need to put the unequal sign with 'Albanian' and 'Shqiptar'. It is about the same people.

arbereshe means christian albanians


please show me Ptolemy book 3, chapter 12 , Macedonia ....where the word albanoi appears ........there is no other appearance
albanianopolis appears in ptolemy writings around south caspian sea area.

 

[Finalise]

Yes, arbereshe means christian albanians. Whatever you say.

To all Albanians here, just dont respond. Youll never convince the likes of zanipolo and yetos of anything. They know nothing about our history, and will never accept anything no matter the amount of proof. Even if they say they're open to proof, they're really not.

Albanians = Descended from southern Illyrian tribe of Albanoi which turned into Arberenesh/Arberesh/Arvanites.

They'll never accept that fact, because it doesn't fit into their nationalistic rhetoric. I feel this forum is more about making pseudo-facts conform to your ego, then having any real discussions about history and linguistics.

 

[Yetos]

Yes, arbereshe means christian albanians. Whatever you say.

To all Albanians here, just dont respond. Youll never convince the likes of zanipolo and yetos of anything. They know nothing about our history, and will never accept anything no matter the amount of proof. Even if they say they're open to proof, they're really not.

Albanians = Descended from southern Illyrian tribe of Albanoi which turned into Arberenesh/Arberesh/Arvanites.

They'll never accept that fact, because it doesn't fit into their nationalistic rhetoric. I feel this forum is more about making pseudo-facts conform to your ego, then having any real discussions about history and linguistics.

@ Finalise.

you are giving orders again,
are you an officer or something?
when you claim pelasgian, celtic, Proto IE. Basquez, even ancient Greek is after Albanian language,
and Isolation so purity and even your friend zeus 10 say that except Albanian all other languages are Cleric languages,
and real Olymp is in Albania, and dorians were Albanians, and Homer spoke ALbanian
then you have to face the answer,

your enemy is just you and only you,
Twisting text history data, or create fantastic tribes who came from planet of AVATAR, does not honors you.
and its pitty,

the tribe Albanoi I never heard about, I heard about Albanopolis although but as Romanized Thracian city.

 

[Finalise]

What the hell even is a Pelasgian? What am I claiming? What Basques do you see in my argument? All I mentioned was that the mtDNA group H is highest in Basque and Albania in Europe. When did I claim Basque language had anything to do with Albanian? I know nothing about the Dorians, Homers, or whatever you say I have no idea of what you're talking about.

I know Zeus is going on about the Pelasgian, b.s., but I never agreed with him for one second. I know nothing about the Pelasgians or Ancient Greek or Mycenean or anything of that nature.

What we all agree on is that Arbernesh is descended from Arbanon/Albanoi tribes of Illyria. I dont care if you havent heard it, go do your research.

Here is something general and straightforward from an un-biased acredited historian (that isn't from the Balkans/Austria) look her up at the bottom.

http://ancienthistory.about.com/library/bl/bl_albaniaancient.htm

I dont understand how Albanians descendings from Albanoi has anything to do with your Greek nationalistic ego that gets offended everytime someone mentions the word Greek, which I never even brough up until this sentence.

 

[zanipolo]

Yes, arbereshe means christian albanians. Whatever you say.

To all Albanians here, just dont respond. Youll never convince the likes of zanipolo and yetos of anything. They know nothing about our history, and will never accept anything no matter the amount of proof. Even if they say they're open to proof, they're really not.

Albanians = Descended from southern Illyrian tribe of Albanoi which turned into Arberenesh/Arberesh/Arvanites.

They'll never accept that fact, because it doesn't fit into their nationalistic rhetoric. I feel this forum is more about making pseudo-facts conform to your ego, then having any real discussions about history and linguistics.

please show me Ptolemy book 3, chapter 12 , Macedonia ....where the word albanoi appears ........there is no other appearance

arbereshe means christian albanians in italy
similar to Gentiles means christian jews

Fenni 2010 - albanian genetics
ghegs are proto-egytian and proto-berber people
gabels and jevgs are romani ( gyspies)
tosks are the only albanians from albania ..........who are they?

The Gabels belong to the Roma minority, who first arrived to Albania around the 14th century AD
from present Bulgaria, and are among the most politically,
economically and socially neglected groups in the country.
The so-called Balkan Egyptians (Jevgs in Albanian) are a
minority seeing themselves as quite distinct from the Roma
community. They are widely dispersed in the Balkan area
and claim an Egyptian origin.

End of Story

 

[zanipolo]

What the hell even is a Pelasgian? What am I claiming? What Basques do you see in my argument? All I mentioned was that the mtDNA group H is highest in Basque and Albania in Europe. When did I claim Basque language had anything to do with Albanian? I know nothing about the Dorians, Homers, or whatever you say I have no idea of what you're talking about.

I know Zeus is going on about the Pelasgian, b.s., but I never agreed with him for one second. I know nothing about the Pelasgians or Ancient Greek or Mycenean or anything of that nature.

What we all agree on is that Arbernesh is descended from Arbanon/Albanoi tribes of Illyria. I dont care if you havent heard it, go do your research.

Here is something general and straightforward from an un-biased acredited historian (that isn't from the Balkans/Austria) look her up at the bottom.

http://ancienthistory.about.com/library/bl/bl_albaniaancient.htm

I dont understand how Albanians descendings from Albanoi has anything to do with your Greek nationalistic ego that gets offended everytime someone mentions the word Greek, which I never even brough up until this sentence.

Why are you ashamed that albanians migrated into Europe....all races migrated into Europe

:bored::bored::bored: topic sucks....far too nationalistic

 

[Yetos]

What the hell even is a Pelasgian? What am I claiming? What Basques do you see in my argument? All I mentioned was that the mtDNA group H is highest in Basque and Albania in Europe. When did I claim Basque language had anything to do with Albanian? I know nothing about the Dorians, Homers, or whatever you say I have no idea of what you're talking about.

I know Zeus is going on about the Pelasgian, b.s., but I never agreed with him for one second. I know nothing about the Pelasgians or Ancient Greek or Mycenean or anything of that nature.

What we all agree on is that Arbernesh is descended from Arbanon/Albanoi tribes of Illyria. I dont care if you havent heard it, go do your research.

Here is something general and straightforward from an un-biased acredited historian (that isn't from the Balkans/Austria) look her up at the bottom.

http://ancienthistory.about.com/library/bl/bl_albaniaancient.htm

I dont understand how Albanians descendings from Albanoi has anything to do with your Greek nationalistic ego that gets offended everytime someone mentions the word Greek, which I never even brough up until this sentence.

I know the story of Arberesh,
they went exiled from bukure Morea due to Italian Turkish wars, ( I don't remember exactly but I think Venice-Ottoman)
Attica Arbanites (Καγκουρες) are the farmers that came το Attica and Theba at 4rth crusade 1240 (+_) and expand to some near by islands, after invitation of Latin ruler of Athens to replace the empty of a plague and the move of Greeks to Νικαια empire.
ArvantoVlachs are Aromani many times are confused with Arbanites
Klepth-Arbanites are many and have their own story Like Souli, Ali pasha soldiers, Argyrokastro soldiers etc
mainly Serbs Albanians Greeks Aromani SlavoMakedonians and possible Croats or Bosnians who create their own code by mixing langauges.
I do not have to hide behind my finger to satisfy my ego,
but have you thought and read what I say?
no need to answer,
the first mention of Albaniapolis is after Roman Illyrian wars and entrance to Moesia. no mention the tribe Albanoi, and the words exist also in Thracian tombs in modern Albanian land, and even today we have no justification that Albaniapolis is the same city with Arbanon of Anna komnena. but we have Alba as cities in Dacia from where founders of ALBA state Anju and later Hunjades came from to Albania.
so the doubt of existance of Albanoi as Illyrian tribe is logic since no Herodtus, no Appianus no Pliny no Strabo mentions them.
but we might have an evidence of colonization of Illyria simmilar to Thermidava and the rest 6 cities in Kossovo by romanized Thracians, and since Albanian share common vocabulary with Romania and for some share Thracian we might speak about a possibility.

 

[nordicwarrior]

PLEASE NO MORE ALBANIAN TALK

Seriously, let's take a break for awhile--nobody's learining anything new here.

 

[Zemra]

please show me Ptolemy book 3, chapter 12 , Macedonia ....where the word albanoi appears ........there is no other appearance

arbereshe means christian albanians in italy
similar to Gentiles means christian jews

Fenni 2010 - albanian genetics
ghegs are proto-egytian and proto-berber people
gabels and jevgs are romani ( gyspies)
tosks are the only albanians from albania ..........who are they?

The Gabels belong to the Roma minority, who first arrived to Albania around the 14th century AD
from present Bulgaria, and are among the most politically,
economically and socially neglected groups in the country.
The so-called Balkan Egyptians (Jevgs in Albanian) are a
minority seeing themselves as quite distinct from the Roma
community. They are widely dispersed in the Balkan area
and claim an Egyptian origin.

End of Story

I don't know what do you have against Albanians, because in every topic about Albanians, you have nothing productive to say, you just attack, insult, tr0ll, mock. Why are you so obsessed with linking Egyptians to Albanians? Gabelët, Jevgjit are Gypsies no matter how they identify themselves, and those two combined make up 3.09% of Albanians (Ferri 2010). E-V13 is a founder during Roman times, not the 14th century. There are no significant differences found between Albanians and other IE Europeans, despite the language differences as much as geneticists have tried to.

And what's with Arbëresh meaning Christian Albanian? It means Albanian, more specifically Medieval Albanians. It was carried by Albanian settlers in Italy and Greece. There are no specific names to specific religious groups among Albanians. If there are, please tell me what's the specific name for Jewish Albanians, I'm dying to know.

 

[Finalise]

Because hes probably Yugoslavian, and tries his best to disprove any Paleo-Balkanic origin of Albanians to fit his ego.

What do Jevgs have to do with EV13? EV-13 has been separated from the rest of E 11,000 years ago. It has been in the Balkans for thousands of years. Jevgs are new arrivals during the middle ages and Ottoman times.

Click on this research, if you care enough and read the thesis and the rest of the paper if you can understand anything.

"No significant difference was observed between Albanians and most other Europeans, despite the fact that Albanians are clearly different from all other Indo-Europeans linguistically. We observe a general lack of genetic structure among Indo-European populations for both maternal and paternal polymorphisms, as well as low levels of correlation between linguistics and genetics, even though slightly more significant for the Y chromosome than for mtDNA"

http://www.nature.com/ejhg/journal/v8/n7/abs/5200443a.html

This is actual genetic research, and not solely haplogroup mapping of bullshit that are useless without context. But no Gheg Albanians are Egyptians, and Albanian is related to Berber.

That way mother Yugoslavia, belongs to you and Kosovo belongs to you. There you go. Go take the land back.

Some people are stupid beyond reason. I dont know why I even bother.

 

[zanipolo]

I don't know what do you have against Albanians, because in every topic about Albanians, you have nothing productive to say, you just attack, insult, tr0ll, mock. Why are you so obsessed with linking Egyptians to Albanians? Gabelët, Jevgjit are Gypsies no matter how they identify themselves, and those two combined make up 3.09% of Albanians (Ferri 2010). E-V13 is a founder during Roman times, not the 14th century. There are no significant differences found between Albanians and other IE Europeans, despite the language differences as much as geneticists have tried to.

And what's with Arbëresh meaning Christian Albanian? It means Albanian, more specifically Medieval Albanians. It was carried by Albanian settlers in Italy and Greece. There are no specific names to specific religious groups among Albanians. If there are, please tell me what's the specific name for Jewish Albanians, I'm dying to know.

The bold is from fenni papers, not my words.

I have nothing against albanians, I just present the fact as written by neutrals...many neutrals.
I present written history which has a logical continuation.....you present illogical fact. If you present logical fact and its continuous , I would believe.
Arbëresh meaning Christian Albanian = that's what Italians say, what they called albanians in Italy.

I have said, show me this text by ptolemy about the albanoi.....

My last questions was, that tosks are albanians that have been in albanian the longest and I asked who and where they derive from.

lastly - I find it very puzzling that after Rome took macedonia ( and albania , greece and epirus) in 146BC, that Roman surveyors found no reference to anyone similar or named albanians. The romans sent surveyors to mountainous areas to search for metals.

You say I am yugoslav, no I am not and yugoslavs do not exist ......its a fictious name given to an area and the people who lived in it............wow...similar to ancient illyria.
And I am not slavic ........ethnically or genetically

EDIT; The only arbanon I found was in bulgarian historical maps of the 11th century, it was located ....west of lake Ohrid and in the upper part of Shkumbian river

 

[Yetos]

yes the old logic,

But who ever does share our imagination, or do not foolow orders is an enemy,
for some people no neutral exist,
either obey, either enemy,

 

[kesi]

The bold is from fenni papers, not my words.

I have nothing against albanians, I just present the fact as written by neutrals...many neutrals.
I present written history which has a logical continuation.....you present illogical fact. If you present logical fact and its continuous , I would believe.
Arbëresh meaning Christian Albanian = that's what Italians say, what they called albanians in Italy.

I don't think you are as neutral as you would like to think you are, I remember you claimed Jevg and Gabel was one of the Albanian tribes apart from tosk and geg. You keep repeating the same claim , do you think other people can't read or what?

There are christian Albanians in case you do not know, they are not called Arberesh, so there is nothing logical about your claim.

Arberesh and Arvanites is name of Albanian during medieval times, also Arberesh is used by Albanians to distinguish foreigners from Albanians (shqiptar) and also to denote inhabitants of lowland areas as opposed to those living in the mountains areas.

 

[Finalise]

Yes the guy is completely neutral. He probably relates Albanian to Berber, and all Gheg Albanians are recent arrivals from Egypt.

These are neutral facts to him.

 

[Zemra]

The bold is from fenni papers, not my words.

I have nothing against albanians, I just present the fact as written by neutrals...many neutrals.

What's neutral about presenting Albanians as Gyspies? And "many neutrals" have proven that Albanians are not different from the rest of IE Europeans. Nothing special about the Albanian genetic makeup, that's the final consensus

I present written history which has a logical continuation.....you present illogical fact. If you present logical fact and its continuous , I would believe.
Arbëresh meaning Christian Albanian = that's what Italians say, what they called albanians in Italy.

There's nothing logical about what you just said. Being described as Christian is not the same thing as "means Christian". All Albanians were Christian in the Middle Ages. There are Christians in Albania, they're not called Arbëresh. The continuity between Arbëresh (Medieval Albanains) and Shqiptar (Contemporary Albanians) is documented, the only illogical claim in here is yours. What did Italians call the Albanians who remained in Albania? Was there a different name? And you still didn't answer what's the name of Jewish Albanians? Surely a society that has a specific name for Christians must have one for other groups.

I have said, show me this text by ptolemy about the albanoi.....

I asked you a question, only you, and you just lumped me with everybody else. That's extremely offensive to me. You quoted my text, so I expect you to answer only my questions.

----------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------
Q&A time:

My last questions was, that tosks are albanians that have been in albanian the longest and I asked who and where they derive from.

That's where the majority of minorities live. Vlach, Greek, "Macedonian", even 80% of the Jevg and Gabel minorities you like to associate Ghegs. There are subgroups of Tosks: "Northern Tosks" (no specific name), Labs, Chams...Any study that separates Tosks from Labs or Chams it's not worth reading. If it gets the definition wrong [ i.e Labs=Tosk, Chams=Tosk, Arvanita (in Greece)=Tosk, Arbëresh (in Italy)=Tosk], it's not worth it. If you want to find something, try separating Tosks in the subgroups they call themselves. The only requirement of separating Albanains in different groups is the language not the religion.

lastly - I find it very puzzling that after Rome took macedonia ( and albania , greece and epirus) in 146BC, that Roman surveyors found no reference to anyone similar or named albanians. The romans sent surveyors to mountainous areas to search for metals.

EDIT; The only arbanon I found was in bulgarian historial maps of the 11th century, it was located...west of lake Ohrid and in the upper part of Shkumbin river

The first Albanian state. Founded by Progon. You might want to search about Albanian principalities, they were not all called Arbanon, only this one. Other names were Muzakaj, Kastrioti, Dukagjini...those are the ones in the tip of my tongue right now. Arbanon/Albania apparently was the name that stuck, kinda like Goguryeo and Korea (Hanguk).

If you want to know, even the Albanian language wasn't called Arbëresh or anything similar in at least the 14th-15th century. Frang Bardhi, who wrote the first Latin-Albanian dictionary called it...Latinium-Epiroticum. There was no (recorded) controversy on the name when it was published as far as I know, so to all members here, don't start now 6 centuries later, I'm just presenting the things as they are.

Names simply change a lot. There are a lot of names referring to Albanians and I listed some of them. Try not to confuse them with the 3.09% minorities, or Vlachs or others.