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Thread: How did the Basques become R1b

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    Sorry, but you're assuming R1b comes from R1a, and that's completely wrong. R1a and R1b share a common ancestor (R1), so what you say makes absolutely no sense.

    Check this: http://www.eupedia.com/europe/europe...timeline.shtml

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    Quote Originally Posted by ElHorsto View Post
    Even if they are least affected (apart from Saami and Finns), they are not completely unaffected. And R1b would be an elegant explanation. Also remember that Sardinians have lowest Gedrosia admixture and coincidentally much lower R1b too, but much more G instead. The higher West Asian component further east in Italy, Balkans and Alps can be explained by other than R1b-only intrusions (LBK,...).
    I think so..but this Gedrosia component is most time hidden into the Western/Atlantic type of components. If you lookt at the experiments of Dieneks, correlating components between different calculators, you'll see that Atlantic components are a mix of West-Asian (makes sense, it's where R1b originated) and old Northern-euro probably Mesolithic-Palaeolithic.

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    Concerning the run he mentions, it's not the Atlantic-Med component the one hiding this admixture, but rather the North European. There's a clear Asian shift there (lacking inside Atlantic-Med), so that's what really makes sense to me.

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    Quote Originally Posted by nordicfoyer View Post
    Then how do you explain the utter disconnectedness of the Basque language? I agree that most of R1b arrived by the method you've mentioned, but here we are talking only about the Basque people.
    Like I explained at the beginning of this thread. During the first invasion of Iberia by R1b, the male-only elite assimilated the local culture and language within a few generations, just like the Germanic tribes who invaded the Roman Empire. Celtic languages may only have taken hold during the Iron Age, when the La Tène culture "receltisied" northern and western Iberia.

    Quote Originally Posted by nordicfoyer View Post
    A large fleet of ships wouldn't be needed-- just 40 or so kayaks or canoes would be more than enough to get the job done. If Iberian was lightly populated at the time of their arrival, the founder population wouldn't have to be very large. Especially if they had a more efficient organizational/governing system than the existing tribe(s).
    How would have horses have travelled on canoes ? Btw, Neolithic Iberia was not that lightly populated. Mediterranean regions were always much more populated than northern Europe and especially the steppes.
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    Quote Originally Posted by Knovas View Post
    No, I didn't mean this, that point does not look relevant to me. I was just remarking that R1b was present in the late Neolithic, so definitely before the Bronze Age. What maybe we should consider, is that IE languages arrived before the Bronze Age, and R1b could still fit. But you know, late Neolithic or Early Bronze Age...it's pretty much the same. What would be really surprising, is to find R1b in the "middle Neolithic".
    R1b has never been found in Neolithic sites in Europe. The earliest was a late Bell Beaker site in Thuringia that was adjacent to the Bronze-age Corded Ware culture (to the north) and the Bronze-age Danubian cultures that I associated with the spread of R1b. The spread of Bronze Age cultures from the Pontic steppes is undeniable from an archaeological point of view. It follows this path :

    First Phase

    - Yamna culture (3500-2200 BCE) in Ukraine and southern Russia.
    - Usatovo culture (3500-3000 BCE) in Romania, Moldavia, and southern Ukraine.

    Second Phase

    - Coţofeni culture (3300-2500 BCE) in northern and western Romania and north-east Serbia.
    - Ezero culture (3300-2700 BCE) in Bulgaria.

    Third Phase

    - Sighişoara-Wietenberg culture (2200-1550 BCE) in central Transylvania.
    - Ottomány/Alföld culture (2100-1700 BCE) in Hungary.
    - Unetice culture (2300-1600 BCE) in Czechia, Austria, southern and central Germany, and western Poland.

    Fourth Phase

    - Tumulus culture (1600-1200 BCE) in Central Europe and eastern France.
    - Terramare culture (1700-1150 BCE) in northern Italy (Po valley).

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    Quote Originally Posted by Knovas View Post
    Sorry, but you're assuming R1b comes from R1a, and that's completely wrong. R1a and R1b share a common ancestor (R1), so what you say makes absolutely no sense.Check this: http://www.eupedia.com/europe/europe...timeline.shtml
    Probably I was wrong in any term, but it does not meant all that I'd said have no sense. If all what we talk in a forum would be right, the forum would haven't sense we only would need a blog. In the tree you did put isn't refered to any sourcesneither data, We only can see a drawing, even in that tree appear on the top; "some ESTIMATIONS are owns, when no reliable source was available" this is not to serious when all forum readers can see how exceptics are some of the forum admins about the Celts From the West theory. I would like to know the link between r1 and r1b, but mAybe there are no reliable data, I don't know.I'd liked the maciamo's expression "receltization of Iberia" cause it is probed in Iberia were celts before halstatt la tenne people cames.

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    Quote Originally Posted by Maciamo View Post
    R1b has never been found in Neolithic sites in Europe.
    Just clarify I said LATE NEOLITHIC, exactly what the abstract pointed. So that's what it is:

    At this period during the Late Neolithic (ca. 2,800–2,000 BC), regionally distinctive burial patterns associated with two different cultural groups emerge, Bell Beaker and Corded Ware, and may reflect differences in how these societies were organized. Ancient DNA analyses of human remains from the Late Neolithic Bell Beaker site of Kromsdorf, Germany showed distinct mitochondrial haplotypes for six individuals, which were classified under the haplogroups I1, K1, T1, U2, U5, and W5, and two males were identified as belonging to the Y haplogroup R1b.

    http://dienekes.blogspot.com.es/search?q=bell+beakers

    PD: Thanks for the summary though.

    Quote Originally Posted by Ziober View Post
    Probably I was wrong in any term, but it does not meant all that I'd said have no sense. If all what we talk in a forum would be right, the forum would haven't sense we only would need a blog. In the tree you did put isn't refered to any sourcesneither data, We only can see a drawing, even in that tree appear on the top; "some ESTIMATIONS are owns, when no reliable source was available" this is not to serious when all forum readers can see how exceptics are some of the forum admins about the Celts From the West theory. I would like to know the link between r1 and r1b, but mAybe there are no reliable data, I don't know.I'd liked the maciamo's expression "receltization of Iberia" cause it is probed in Iberia were celts before halstatt la tenne people cames.
    I'm afraid there's no discussion: both R1a and R1b split from R1, so your point that R1a inhabited Iberia earlier than elsewhere and changed gradually to R1b, was completely wrong. You were speculating, I know, but not me. My focus was this one, I did no say anything about other things you posted.

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    Quote Originally Posted by Knovas View Post
    Just clarify I said LATE NEOLITHIC, exactly what the abstract pointed. So that's what it is:

    At this period during the Late Neolithic (ca. 2,800–2,000 BC), regionally distinctive burial patterns associated with two different cultural groups emerge, Bell Beaker and Corded Ware, and may reflect differences in how these societies were organized. Ancient DNA analyses of human remains from the Late Neolithic Bell Beaker site of Kromsdorf, Germany showed distinct mitochondrial haplotypes for six individuals, which were classified under the haplogroups I1, K1, T1, U2, U5, and W5, and two males were identified as belonging to the Y haplogroup R1b.

    http://dienekes.blogspot.com.es/search?q=bell+beakers
    Whatever the abstract said, the Bell-Beaker culture was not Neolithic, but Chalcolithic to Bronze Age. It is an oft misunderstood fact since the Beaker folks moved into the Megalithic cultures of Western Europe, which were Neolithic. The Megalithic culture survived in juxtaposition throughout the Beaker period.

    The Bell-Beaker culture is an important transitional culture since it frames the period when bronze technologies first entered into Western Europe. I believe that R1b first penetrated into Germany and Western Europe during the Beaker period. They would have been only a small minority of migrants/invaders. Just like early Neolithic farmers lived side-by-side with indigenous hunter-gathers when they moved into Europe, the Bronze-age Beaker people settling a few isolated sites and traded with their Megalithic neighbours, which is why beaker pottery ended up in Megalithic sites too. However bronze technologies were not a widely adopted by the whole of Central/Western European society yet. This only happened with later advances from the Indo-Europeans (Tumulus, Hallstatt, La Tène...), when more R1b people flocked in.

    I believe that the R1b sample found in Thuringia in just one of those early adventurers who moved west from the Hungarian plain.

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    Quote Originally Posted by Maciamo View Post
    Like I explained at the beginning of this thread. During the first invasion of Iberia by R1b, the male-only elite assimilated the local culture and language within a few generations, just like the Germanic tribes who invaded the Roman Empire. Celtic languages may only have taken hold during the Iron Age, when the La Tène culture "receltisied" northern and western Iberia.
    Not a great comparison from any angle... modern day Iberia is full of R1b, but where is the Germanic markers in the Roman Empire lands?

    Horses absolutely love canoes, as long as you train them from an earlier age. They can be trained to row using their teeth and hoofs. R1b were fantastic horse whisperers.

    Actually with my theory I have the Basque as the first group into Iberia from R1b lines, and they would have moved in without horses. Other branches of R1b would have brought horses later. This is the only way to account for the strangeness of the Basque language.
    Last edited by nordicfoyer; 14-02-13 at 21:25. Reason: improve sentence structure

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    Quote Originally Posted by Maciamo View Post
    Whatever the abstract said, the Bell-Beaker culture was not Neolithic, but Chalcolithic to Bronze Age. It is an oft misunderstood fact since the Beaker folks moved into the Megalithic cultures of Western Europe, which were Neolithic. The Megalithic culture survived in juxtaposition throughout the Beaker period.

    The Bell-Beaker culture is an important transitional culture since it frames the period when bronze technologies first entered into Western Europe. I believe that R1b first penetrated into Germany and Western Europe during the Beaker period. They would have been only a small minority of migrants/invaders. Just like early Neolithic farmers lived side-by-side with indigenous hunter-gathers when they moved into Europe, the Bronze-age Beaker people settling a few isolated sites and traded with their Megalithic neighbours, which is why beaker pottery ended up in Megalithic sites too. However bronze technologies were not a widely adopted by the whole of Central/Western European society yet. This only happened with later advances from the Indo-Europeans (Tumulus, Hallstatt, La Tène...), when more R1b people flocked in.

    I believe that the R1b sample found in Thuringia in just one of those early adventurers who moved west from the Hungarian plain.
    Not bad. There's basically a terminology consistency issue on that question. I previously remarked there wasn't much of a difference between Late Neolithic (or the transitional period you descrive above), and the Early Bronze Age. Just a concretion, I never gave it more relevance than that.

    Your scenario seems plausible, although we cannot discard a surprising Neolithic finding. Let's assume you're right (I think so):

    - Do you think R1b carried the West Asian related components (we can include: West Asian, Caucasus, Gedrosia, South Asian, etc. depending on the run), which seem to have something to do with IE?

    - If yes, ¿Why then the Basques lack them most times?

    Just want to know your point of view, some of us already posted some things.

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    0 out of 1 members found this post helpful.
    Quote Originally Posted by Knovas View Post
    I'm afraid there's no discussion: both R1a and R1b split from R1, so your point that R1a inhabited Iberia earlier than elsewhere and changed gradually to R1b, was completely wrong. You were speculating, I know, but not me. My focus was this one, I did no say anything about other things you posted.

    I had read this today:
    http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Haplogr...73_%28Y-DNA%29

    I was wrong in the terminology, I could see how r1b was older than r1a, OK, but maintain my idea, so you change R1a by M173. Some M173 people cames to Iberia and was mutated to M343 before the biggest IE migration waves were arrived into Iberia. And I agree with Maciamo about the antique r1b founded in Turkey cames from western voyagers, but before Germany they stays in Iberia.

    In the other hand, I must to search sources that I had read about the ancient horses in Iberia, and how its were the most powerful equestrian strains over Europe, so there nobody brought the horses to Iberia, but the oposite.

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    I was going to make a longer reply here about my own views, but I'm going for something slightly different.

    Family Tree DNA
    's R1b data is fairly large - large enough to have, in my opinion, a fairly representative sample size. Maciamo made this tree of R1b. If you don't like his, you can look for an other elsewhere. In any case, combine the two informations and you get a rough idea of what potential migration patterns R1b may have taken. I do not know if you will come to the same conclusions as I have, but to me it looks like R1b's expansion pattern in western Europe does not add up with the expansion pattern of the Beaker-Bell Culture. The common consensus of all semi-recent papers is that R1b arrived in Western Europe in the Neolithic or later. Since it failed to turn up in Neolithic sites with exception of the Beaker-Bell site in Germany (which is more Chalcolithic than Neolithic), it's only a logical conclusion that R1b arrived afterwards.

    Wether the Beaker-Bell Culture and/or the carriers of R1b were Indo-Europeans, or not, I'm leaving you to decide for yourself.

    With regard for Celtic presence in Iberia, I disagree with Maciamo's statement that Celtic (or Indo-European) presence arrived in Iberia only in the iron age. Presence in the north and west of Iberia is so dense and there is no clear sign of a pre-Indo-European presence in western Iberia. To me thus suggests that Indo-European-speaking peoples arrived in Iberia already in the Bronze Age. The Basques of Antiquity - in contrast - lived in a more easterly area than today (Navarre, western to central Pyrenees, SW France).

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    In my opinion basques are the same indoeuropeans whose arrived to SW Iberia, then happened the mutation to R1b, migrating to the north, so basques were R1b (IE) which adopted the language of their hand to hand neighbors, the iberians (southern cromanoids) so basque language is indeed the Iberian pre-IE language (or cromanoid language)

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    About the ancient and independent autochthonous horse domestication in the Iberian peninsula:

    http://www.horseshowcentral.com/hors...an_horse/333/1
    http://www.soscaballolosino.com/Entr...0ecuestres.htm
    http://www.plosone.org/article/info%...l.pone.0018194

    This fact would support the hypothesis about Iberian origin of celtic culture and their warhorses.

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    Quote Originally Posted by Ziober View Post
    I think Iberia was the most populated place in Europe at the time of IE migrations into europe because de glaciations. And I think R1a was IE, R1b was Iberian mutation on R1a.
    I'm not following your thinking. R1b and R1a are parallel mutations under R1. Are you saying R1 is Iberian?

    Quote Originally Posted by Ziober View Post
    So R1a cames to Iberia several time before the IE biggest migration waves.
    What happened to the R1a in Iberia?

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    0 out of 2 members found this post helpful.
    Hi Mikewww. I wanted to say that the mutation on M173 to M343 happened in iberia, so I'm saying R1b was originated in Iberia. There are people in the thread wondering how was possible to bring horses in ancient boats, then I told how was no needed to brought horses into Iberia, cause there are signs of a parallel independent domestication of horse in the Iberian peninsula.

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    Quote Originally Posted by Ziober View Post
    Hi Mikewww. I wanted to say that the mutation on M173 to M343 happened in iberia, so I'm saying R1b was originated in Iberia. There are people in the thread wondering how was possible to bring horses in ancient boats, then I told how was no needed to brought horses into Iberia, cause there are signs of a parallel independent domestication of horse in the Iberian peninsula.
    R1b did not originate in Iberia. Why do you still keep believing this? There is no data to back such a claim up. You can also check the tree of R1b again: http://www.eupedia.com/images/content/R1b-tree.gif - all the more ancient subclades of R1b are found outside of Western Europe. There is not even a particularly good reason to assume that it entered Europe via Iberia. If you take a look at the data from Family Tree DNA which I posted earlier, the only really abundant subclade of R1b is P312, and as it was speculated in another thread, much of it probably is part of subclade DF27.

    Also, as LeBrok pointed out, only mitochondrial horse lineages seem to have an independent origin in Iberia, which means that local mares were interbred with stallions from the steppe, not that horses were domesticated independently. If it was, how is this connected with R1b?

    Back on the original topic, it should be pointed out that we do not know at what point the Basques became R1b-dominant.

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    0 out of 2 members found this post helpful.
    You can continue with that outdated northicist IE supremacy theories from early XX century Central Europe ideas. But I must to tell you that celtithity was originated in the iberian peninsula by the R1b people.

    What are you trying tp prove with that your own made map?. I couldn't understood... It say nothing about R1b origins, adding that it had built by you or your ideology mates.

    In Iberia wasn't extincted the horses in holocene period, in the rest of europe done. Here were 2 horse species capable to be rode. Here are Paleolithic cave paints with horse domestication scenes. Today ramain 2 races from that wild authochthonous iberian horses, the lusitanian and the sorraia mustangs. If in the actual horse selection there are mtcdADN is because there were a specie apt to ride on, as the females the males. This is a common sense matter.

    About the basques I'll repeat the same. The basques of today weren't the original basque speakers, they were probably southern cromanoids, the basques were their close neighbors whose adopted that language as own, but the basques of today descend from the first celts.

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    Quote Originally Posted by Ziober View Post
    You can continue with that outdated northicist IE supremacy theories from early XX century Central Europe ideas. But I must to tell you that celtithity was originated in the iberian peninsula by the R1b people.
    Funny, that accusation makes no sense, because I wasn't even talking about the Celtic languages. I was only talking about the origin of R1b, which didn't originate on the Iberian peninsula.

    I find the accusation especially funny because I argued earlier that Celtic languages were actually spoken in Bronze Age iberia:

    Quote Originally Posted by Taranis View Post
    With regard for Celtic presence in Iberia, I disagree with Maciamo's statement that Celtic (or Indo-European) presence arrived in Iberia only in the iron age. Presence in the north and west of Iberia is so dense and there is no clear sign of a pre-Indo-European presence in western Iberia. To me thus suggests that Indo-European-speaking peoples arrived in Iberia already in the Bronze Age. The Basques of Antiquity - in contrast - lived in a more easterly area than today (Navarre, western to central Pyrenees, SW France).

    What are you trying tp prove with that your own made map?. I couldn't understood... It say nothing about R1b origins, adding that it had built by you or your ideology mates.
    Maciamo isn't an "ideological mate" because there is no ideology involved: I was merely talking about the distributions of the various subclades of R1b. But if you do not like Maciamo's tree, you can also take this tree from ISOGG. Work yourself up that tree, you will realize that the most ancient subclades of R1b are found nowhere near Iberia.

    In Iberia wasn't extincted the horses in holocene period, in the rest of europe done. Here were 2 horse species capable to be rode. Here are Paleolithic cave paints with horse domestication scenes. Today ramain 2 races from that wild authochthonous iberian horses, the lusitanian and the sorraia mustangs. If in the actual horse selection there are mtcdADN is because there were a specie apt to ride on, as the females the males. This is a common sense matter.

    About the basques I'll repeat the same. The basques of today weren't the original basque speakers, they were probably southern cromanoids, the basques were their close neighbors whose adopted that language as own, but the basques of today descend from the first celts.
    Sorry, but if the "Celts" really domesticated horses independently, why do the Celtic languages have a common word for "horse" shared with other branches of Indo-European?

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    0 out of 2 members found this post helpful.
    Quote Originally Posted by Taranis View Post
    Funny, that accusation makes no sense, because I wasn't even talking about the Celtic languages. I was only talking about the origin of R1b, which didn't originate on the Iberian peninsula.
    Well, this is your think against mine, because the origin of M173 is unknown.

    Quote Originally Posted by Taranis View Post
    I find the accusation especially funny because I argued earlier that Celtic languages were actually spoken in Bronze Age iberia:






    Maciamo isn't an "ideological mate" because there is no ideology involved: I was merely talking about the distributions of the various subclades of R1b. But if you do not like Maciamo's tree, you can also take this tree from ISOGG. Work yourself up that tree, you will realize that the most ancient subclades of R1b are found nowhere near Iberia.
    These trees only show the chronological order of the subclades, no more, no less. I don't know what do you pretend to prove with these...
    When you said "r1b (origin)are found nowhere near to Iberia" you must to say " r1b origin aren't found near to nowhere, and I think you know so good that, so you are confusing at readers, only that.





    Quote Originally Posted by Taranis View Post
    Sorry, but if the "Celts" really domesticated horses independently, why do the Celtic languages have a common word for "horse" shared with other branches of Indo-European?
    I'm saying horse was domesticated in Iberia time ago before celt was an identity, probably by cromagnoids. I don't know if cromagnoids taught celts to domesticate its or was an independent event. I think the M-173 subclade arrives to iberia by boats maybe in neolithic or copper age, and then happend the mutation to M-343 asociated to celts into the iberian peninsula, probably in the SW.

    On this source you all can read how the origins of R-M173 remain unclear:
    http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Haplogr...73_%28Y-DNA%29
    Last edited by Ziober; 19-02-13 at 16:19. Reason: add source

  21. #46
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    Personally, I am not really concerned about horses and where they were domesticated unless it can be tied to population movements and it probably can.

    I have just discovered this site about cro-magnon man: http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Cro-Magnon. In the article:

    "The name derives from the Abri de Cro-Magnon (French: rock shelter of Cro-Magnon, the big cave in Occitan) near the commune of Les Eyzies-de-Tayac-Sireuil in southwestern France, where the first specimen was found.[6] Being the oldest known modern humans (Homo sapiens sapiens) in Europe, the Cro-Magnons were from the outset linked to the well-known Lascaux cave paintings and the Aurignacian culture whose remains were well known from southern France and Germany."



    What is interesting to me about that is I have traced my surname (although without definite proof) to the Tulle area of Correze in France very near where this skeleton was found near ( Les Eyzies-de-Tayac-Sireuil in southwestern France). Also, there is a photo (above) of a reconstructed Cro-Magnon 30,000 YPB on that site and if you put a Greek nose on him I would look very similar (I am much more handsome though!). The brow ridge on him is more pronounced on him than me but I do have (and all of the male members of my family) the extreme receding hair line, the high forehead, the high cheek bones and wide face and my hat size is at least XL. Interestingly enough my blood type is A negative which fits right in with the Basques who have one of the highest rates of rhesus negative blood types in the world.

    The comparison of my STR markers and SNPs are close but I can't really tell. Should I join the Basque y-DNA project.

    Curtis Pigman (France - Pigmon / Greece - Pygmon)
    Quote Originally Posted by Ziober View Post
    You can continue with that outdated northicist IE supremacy theories from early XX century Central Europe ideas. But I must to tell you that celtithity was originated in the iberian peninsula by the R1b people.



    What are you trying tp prove with that your own made map?. I couldn't understood... It say nothing about R1b origins, adding that it had built by you or your ideology mates.

    In Iberia wasn't extincted the horses in holocene period, in the rest of europe done. Here were 2 horse species capable to be rode. Here are Paleolithic cave paints with horse domestication scenes. Today ramain 2 races from that wild authochthonous iberian horses, the lusitanian and the sorraia mustangs. If in the actual horse selection there are mtcdADN is because there were a specie apt to ride on, as the females the males. This is a common sense matter.

    About the basques I'll repeat the same. The basques of today weren't the original basque speakers, they were probably southern cromanoids, the basques were their close neighbors whose adopted that language as own, but the basques of today descend from the first celts.

  22. #47
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    Quote Originally Posted by Pi gman View Post
    Personally, I am not really concerned about horses and where they were domesticated unless it can be tied to population movements and it probably can.

    I have just discovered this site about cro-magnon man: http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Cro-Magnon. In the article:

    "The name derives from the Abri de Cro-Magnon (French: rock shelter of Cro-Magnon, the big cave in Occitan) near the commune of Les Eyzies-de-Tayac-Sireuil in southwestern France, where the first specimen was found.[6] Being the oldest known modern humans (Homo sapiens sapiens) in Europe, the Cro-Magnons were from the outset linked to the well-known Lascaux cave paintings and the Aurignacian culture whose remains were well known from southern France and Germany."



    What is interesting to me about that is I have traced my surname (although without definite proof) to the Tulle area of Correze in France very near where this skeleton was found near ( Les Eyzies-de-Tayac-Sireuil in southwestern France). Also, there is a photo (above) of a reconstructed Cro-Magnon 30,000 YPB on that site and if you put a Greek nose on him I would look very similar (I am much more handsome though!). The brow ridge on him is more pronounced on him than me but I do have (and all of the male members of my family) the extreme receding hair line, the high forehead, the high cheek bones and wide face and my hat size is at least XL. Interestingly enough my blood type is A negative which fits right in with the Basques who have one of the highest rates of rhesus negative blood types in the world.

    The comparison of my STR markers and SNPs are close but I can't really tell. Should I join the Basque y-DNA project.

    Curtis Pigman (France - Pigmon / Greece - Pygmon)
    Oh I forgot to mention in the previous post. In this Wikipedia article: http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Origin_of_the_Basques
    Origin of the Basques

    "This hypothesis states that, after the glaciations, the survivors of the Cro-Magnon in the European continent searched for warmer places, such as present-day Ukraine and the southwest of the continent,[1] settling in the region of the Pyrenees[2] and the south of France, due the mitigation of the cold due the Foehn effect.[2] These settlements near the Pyrenees conformed the proto-Basque people.


    Distribution of Paleolithic settlements in Europe.


    Starting in the year 16,000 BCE, the warmer climate allowed the expansion of proto-Basque groups, or proto-Europeans, across the entire continent and the north of Africa,[1][3] and expanding the Magdalenian culture across Europe.
    This hypothesis is supported by three different research works, one of them genetic (based on the studies of Forster and Stephen Oppenheimer), the other two linguistic (the works of Theo Venneman)[citation needed].
    The Finnish linguist Kalevi Wiik proposed in 2008 that the current Basque language is the remainder of a group of "Basque languages" that were spoken in the Paleolithic in all western Europe.[4] and that retreated with the progress of the Indo-European languages. According to Wiik, this theory coincides with the homogeneous distribution of the Haplogroup R1b in Atlantic Europe.[5]
    Paleogenetic investigations

    The geneticist Spencer Wells, director of the Genographic Project of the National Geographic Society has pointed out that, genetically, the Basques are indistinguishable of the rest of Iberians,[6] a fact that has been later confirmed by a study led by Jaume Bentranpetit, at the Pompeu Fabra University, in Barcelona.[7]"



    So, as you can see this puts it all together in a hypothetical sort of way.

    Curtis Pigman (France - Pigmon / Greece - Pygmon)

  23. #48
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    2 out of 2 members found this post helpful.
    Pi gman, here's a scenerio that may clue you in to the inner-workings of the y-haplogroup scientific crowd.

    NASA announces we have been visited by space aliens from a distant galaxy, one that is THOUSANDS of light years away. The media is in a frenzy, the world view is altered for all humankind, and wars are now deemed unneccessary.

    Fifteen minutes later Spencer Wells claims that these aliens are projected to be members of his own haplogroup... hg R1b.

    Are you starting to see the pattern? If there's a subject matter that is more political, more egocentric, more illustrative of man's tendency to trumpet his ancestors success (real or imagined) over those of his neighbor's... well I want to see it.

    So wade into your Paleolithic Basque hypothesis carefully, and bring your sense of humor. You're going to need it. If you don't trust my read on the y-DNA realm, please spend five minutes reviewing any Albanian thread you can find.

    After we are all one shade of tawny brown in eight hundred or eight thousand years, this is the stuff we are going to be arguing about... if not waging battles over. Welcome to the future Pi gman! May the force be with you...

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    Before the attacks begin...

    Yes I'm as guilty as anyone else. Let the arrows commence.

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    3 out of 3 members found this post helpful.
    Basques speak probably the most genuine language in Europe, and it's not true at all that they are indistinguishable from the rest of Iberians: in fact, they are, since they fall clearly outside of the normal European variation, as do the Sardinians. They seem to be the most well preserved populations in Europe nowadays, but this has very little to do with Y-DNA (a single ancestor) and, no need to say, claiming they are direct Cro-Magnon's descent and things like this...you know, that's all exageration.

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