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Thread: How did the Basques become R1b

  1. #51
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    Y-DNA haplogroup
    R-L2 Z49 Z142 Z150*

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    Thank you for your reply. I have been testing my y-DNA and participating in these forums for 3 years now and I know about the attacks and condescension going on.

    My take on this is: If you meet with four friends/acquaintances for coffee regularly at the local coffee shop for discussion on whatever subject, you will have four different ways of thinking or parameters about the subject and four different opinions on the supporting information. For instance: My goals are to find my ancestors country of origin and I believe I have done that by looking at history, investigation family lore, comparing y-DNA STRs and SNP, etc. What qualifies as proof? Well, the professional genealogists will not consider it proof until birth, death and marriage certificates are found. Even a census is not to be trusted 100%. In some cases they simply do not exist such as in the 17th and 18th century Colonial American wilderness. If the records did exist somewhere they were burned in a courthouse fire or lost.

    The historical records of population movements, wars, diseases can be trusted if they were written by a known reliable source.
    Linguists can make a case of similarities between languages and physical anthropology. Physical anthropologists can make a case by using cranial morphology (I use Dienekes racial calculator). Geologists use sediment layers to calculate YBP data and other scientists use radio carbon dating for finding the age of organic material. y-DNA is frustrating because after three years and several tests I have realized that some of my closest matches don't even fit my haplogroup.
    Nevertheless, we push on and look for tidbits of information and wait patiently until some genealogy society puts information up on a web site and: Finally! There it is!

    The genetic scientific crowd is sort of like Ross in "Friends". When he is junior to the other paleontologists, he is ostracized and even cannot sit with them in the lunchroom. If he happens to not agree with the other scientists' theories he is severely ostracized. When his friends tell him something like "dinosaurs didn't even exist" he is utterly insulted and goes off on a tangent. Of course, they were just messing with him!

    My career was in tele-communications technology but I was also interested in cultural anthropology and sociology and studied these subjects to some extent in college. So, I have a keen interest in anthropology, population studies and evolution, genetics as well as genealogy and have had since the 60's.

    About the arrows, I have had them shot at me before and that's OK because I can see them coming from the computer screen
    and simply dodge them and about the sense of humor, well as you can see, I have one of those too!

    As far as opinions go, I served 6 years in the USAF so that we could continue to be free to express our ideas and opinions (hopefully backed up by evidential support). So lets all meet for coffee and discuss things like the adults we are. Pull up a chair. I'll buy the coffee!

    Curtis Pigman (France - Pigmon / Greece - Pygmon)


    Quote Originally Posted by nordicfoyer View Post
    Pi gman, here's a scenerio that may clue you in to the inner-workings of the y-haplogroup scientific crowd.

    NASA announces we have been visited by space aliens from a distant galaxy, one that is THOUSANDS of light years away. The media is in a frenzy, the world view is altered for all humankind, and wars are now deemed unneccessary.

    Fifteen minutes later Spencer Wells claims that these aliens are projected to be members of his own haplogroup... hg R1b.

    Are you starting to see the pattern? If there's a subject matter that is more political, more egocentric, more illustrative of man's tendency to trumpet his ancestors success (real or imagined) over those of his neighbor's... well I want to see it.

    So wade into your Paleolithic Basque hypothesis carefully, and bring your sense of humor. You're going to need it. If you don't trust my read on the y-DNA realm, please spend five minutes reviewing any Albanian thread you can find.

    After we are all one shade of tawny brown in eight hundred or eight thousand years, this is the stuff we are going to be arguing about... if not waging battles over. Welcome to the future Pi gman! May the force be with you...

  2. #52
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    1 out of 1 members found this post helpful.
    Pi gman, nice comment... I like the coffee shop scenerio.

    BTW, my grandfather worked on planes that 'flew the hump' back in WWII. He wasn't USAF because of the timeline, but he was proto USAF anyway.

  3. #53
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    Quote Originally Posted by nordicfoyer View Post
    Pi gman, nice comment... I like the coffee shop scenerio.

    BTW, my grandfather worked on planes that 'flew the hump' back in WWII. He wasn't USAF because of the timeline, but he was proto USAF anyway.
    Thanks Nordic,
    I am a Vietnam era veteran who trained for a year and got assigned to the 6942 Tuslog Det 94 in Karamursel, Turkey. I was USAF Security Service with Top Secret clearance need to know and all that. Our job was highly classified but 10 years after my enlistment was up everything I knew and did was de-classified. The short of it is we were intercepting Russian signals. My particular assignment was to intercept and record encrypted Soviet voice associated with MIRV mobile Russian nuclear ICBMs. We had to know where they were at all times.

    I lived in a nearby village - Yalova, Turkey for three years and took trips that included the 7 churches of Asia Minor among others. Interesting that I have found out my haplo R1b1a L2+, Z49+ and Z142+ matches numerous samples of a population study of Phocaea and Smyrna (Izmir) Turkey. In history these were Greek city-states of Ionian Greeks. Wish I could go back for a visit! Could by my doppelgänger or cousins are there!

    From: http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Phocaea

    Phocaea, or Phokaia, (Greek: Φώκαια) (modern-day Foça in Turkey) was an ancient Ionian Greek city on the western coast of Anatolia. Greek colonists from Phocaea founded the colony of Massalia[1] (modern day Marseille, in France) in 600 BC, Emporion (modern day Empúries, in Catalonia, Spain) in 575 BC and Elea (modern day Velia, in Campania, Italy) in 540 BC.

    The ancient Greek geographer Pausanias says that Phocaea was founded by Phocians under Athenian leadership, on land given to them by the Aeolian Cymaeans, and that they were admitted into the Ionian League after accepting as kings the line of Codrus.[4] Pottery remains indicate Aeolian presence as late as the 9th century BC, and Ionian presence as early as the end of the 9th century BC. From this an approximate date of settlement for Phocaea can be inferred.[5]
    According to Herodotus the Phocaeans were the first Greeks to make long sea-voyages, having discovered the coasts of the Adriatic, Tyrrhenia and Spain. Herodotus relates that they so impressed Arganthonios, king of Tartessus in Spain, that he invited them to settle there, and, when they declined, gave them a great sum of money to build a wall around their city.[6]
    Their sea travel was extensive. To the south they probably conducted trade with the Greek colony of Naucratis in Egypt, which was the colony of their fellow Ionian city Miletus. To the north, they probably helped settle Amisos (Samsun) on the Black Sea, and Lampsacus at the north end of the Hellespont (now the Dardanelles). However Phocaea's major colonies were to the west. These included Alalia in Corsica, Emporiae and Rhoda in Spain, and especially Massalia (Marseille) in France.[5]
    Phocaea remained independent until the reign of the Lydian king Croesus (circa 560–545 BC), when they, along with the rest of mainland Ionia, first, fell under Lydian control[7] and then, along with Lydia (who had allied itself with Sparta) were conquered by Cyrus the Great of Persia in 546 BC, in one of the opening skirmishes of the great Greco-Persian conflict.
    Rather than submit to Persian rule, the Phocaeans abandoned their city. Some may have fled to Chios, others to their colonies on Corsica and elsewhere in the Mediterranean, with some eventually returning to Phocaea. Many however became the founders of Elea, around 540 BC.[8]

    So we have Ionian Greeks entering Corsica, France and Spain.

    Curtis Pigman (France - Pigmon/Pimond and Greece - Pygmon)

  4. #54
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    1 out of 1 members found this post helpful.
    Interesting, I have inferred two out four of my great grandfathers to be R1b1a2 (one at about 98% certainty and the other about 85% certainty based on geographic location and ftdna surname results). I'm thinking one might even had Basque ties due to some autosomal readings that pull toward that area.

    On a seperate note, did you ever make to Gobekli Tepe during your time in Turkey? I've started a past thread on Gobekli Tepe if you have... I'd like to hear about that area due to it's ancient archeological remains.

  5. #55
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    Quote Originally Posted by nordicfoyer View Post
    Interesting, I have inferred two out four of my great grandfathers to be R1b1a2 (one at about 98% certainty and the other about 85% certainty based on geographic location and ftdna surname results). I'm thinking one might even had Basque ties due to some autosomal readings that pull toward that area.

    On a separate note, did you ever make to Gobekli Tepe during your time in Turkey? I've started a past thread on Gobekli Tepe if you have... I'd like to hear about that area due to it's ancient archeological remains.
    I would love to see those ruins! Its beginnings are estimated to 11,000 BCE or earlier and considered by some to be the most important ruins in the world.

    I didn't make it that far east in Turkey as my security clearance prohibited me from going to certain areas. Also my 2 tours of duty in Turkey from were from 1971 to 1974 and Gobekli Tepe excavation was not begun until 1991.

    Is the thread you started on Gobekli Tepe stil active? I'll do a search and read it.

    Curtis Pigman (France - Pigmon/Pimond and Greece - Pygmon)

  6. #56
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    1 out of 1 members found this post helpful.
    I wrote today to someone of our co-bloggers that this thread was of good enough 'tenue' because i had not red the last posts - but it's true, I find some post here are very OUT OF SUBJECT

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    1 out of 1 members found this post helpful.
    Yes, I think this is a kind of published private conversation. With nothing to do with basque thread...

  8. #58
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    1 out of 1 members found this post helpful.
    My apologies, although I did get slightly back on track with my possible Basque autosomal results. I'll be more mindful in the future...

    Question, if the Basque speakers had to be grouped with another language, would it be closer to Latin, German, or Celtic/Gaelic?
    Which of these three tongues has the most in common with Basque?

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    My apologies as well. At least our off topic conversion is serving as a catalyst to en-vigor the conversion about how the Basques became R1b!

    As far as I know nobody really know how long the Basques have been in the area of the Pyrenees mountains of France&Spain.

    There is a map that shows R1b1a in the Levant forming around 17,000 Y.B.P. Possibly they made their way around Turkey via Gobekli Tepe (13,000 YBP) and into the Greek city states of Asia Minor (Phocaia, Smyrna, and Pergamon) and into Greece. These Ionian Greeks then founded the areas of Marseilles, Perpignan, and Corsica in 600 B.C.E as trading ports as well and established their trading ports in Catalonia, Spain (575 B.C.E) near the Pyrenees mountains.

    Now that we have some more meat for the subject we should all share a bottle of red wine! Cheers!

    Curtis Pigman (France - Pigmon/Pimond / Greece - Pygmon)

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    Quote Originally Posted by nordicfoyer View Post
    My apologies, although I did get slightly back on track with my possible Basque autosomal results. I'll be more mindful in the future...

    Question, if the Basque speakers had to be grouped with another language, would it be closer to Latin, German, or Celtic/Gaelic?
    Which of these three tongues has the most in common with Basque?
    Here is an interesting answer from Yahoo Answers:

    Traditionally, Basque was considered a linguistic isolate, meaning that it's not related to any other language spoken on Earth. Some linguists still regard it as a linguistic isolate.

    However, there is a growing school of linguists who argue that every language is related to some other language in the world. Therefore, there are no languages which can truly be called "linguistic isolates."

    In 1966, a famous Russian linguist, V. Illych-Svitych , announced the first evidence that Basque was distantly related to Chinese. He and his research team were overjoyed by the findings.

    Since that time, some other linguists around the world have joined him in arguing that Basque is distantly related to Chinese and even some North American Indian language families like Uto-Aztecan and Athabaskan which includes the Navajo and Apache languages.

    In the 1990's, an Italian scholar, G.M. Facchetti, found compelling evidence that Basque together with Etruscan was related to the North Caucasian group of languages spoken in the area where Russian, Turkey and Iran all come together. One linguist proposed a hypothetical language called "Proto-Daghestanian" spoken here which he says was the common ancestor of Basque, Etruscan and all the North Caucasian languages like Abkhazian, Chechen, Ingush, Circassian etc.

    Cheers,
    Curtis Pigman (France - Pigmon/Pimond / Greece - Pygmon)

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    1 out of 1 members found this post helpful.
    Mama, papa is understandable even if it is Cantonese for Mom and Pop. Hindi would Ma, Bap, Baba, Pitaji ('ji' respectful term) for Mom and Dad. Kaw or kao for dog and Khuta or Khoota in Hindi for dog.

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    1 out of 1 members found this post helpful.
    Maciamo,

    I agree that R1b is decidedly a foreign, and likely, Indo-European origin into Western Eruope. But can we be even a little sure that the Basque language isn't also foreign to Europe? Why is everyone so sure that Iberians have had such a lengthy linguistic continuity in SW Europe?
    If R1b-V88 adopted various Semetic languages, possibly spreading them to parts of Africa,

    Could it be that the Basque language was once a North African fringe language adopted by R1b people who eventually migrated to West Europe? Perhaps their original Y haplogroup mix was different, and only recently came to be dominated by R1b?

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    Quote Originally Posted by Pi gman View Post
    In the 1990's, an Italian scholar, G.M. Facchetti, found compelling evidence that Basque together with Etruscan was related to the North Caucasian group of languages spoken in the area where Russian, Turkey and Iran all come together. One linguist proposed a hypothetical language called "Proto-Daghestanian" spoken here which he says was the common ancestor of Basque, Etruscan and all the North Caucasian languages like Abkhazian, Chechen, Ingush, Circassian etc.
    (France - Pigmon/Pimond / Greece - Pygmon)
    It's not even proved that North-West Caucasian languages (Abkhazian, Circassian) are at all related to North-East Caucasian languages (Chechen-Ingush). Current DNA data also does not support the idea that those peoples are genetically related.
    So to generalize this relationship to Basque and Etruscan is not right imho.

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    My hypothesis:

    I think R1b were nonconformist people whose were exploring to settle where they wish, always looking for a better way of life. Spreading from their original core in SW Iberia, and probably an important part of them were seduced by basque-aquitanian country way of life,country which in the surroundings were inhabited in those times by cromagnoids whose had speaks the language known as basque, So the R1b basques became sedentary with very attachment about their land, adopting a foreign language, the cromanoid language. R1b and cromagnoids were mixed forming the modern celtiberians (all around Iberia, not only in basque country). Another R1b people continued their voyage to French Brittany, Ireland, Scotland, Wales, England. Then became another expansion from the isles to Norway, and from Brittany-Aquitania to Central Europe. the R1b Central European people spreads to north Italy, the East Europe and Catalonia-Aragón-Rioja-Navarra in Iberia. The most plausible origin of R1b was in the SW of Iberia. At this point is very important to considerate the celtic "castros"(spanish word) in Cogotas I y II, and all about Vettons in general.

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    To Me , It Seems Absurd To Keep Lumping The Basques With The Cromagnons. Other Than U8a There Is Nothing That Sets The Basques Apart From Other Western Europeans In Terms Of Genetic Composition. The Most Prevelant Argument For The Basques Being A Relic Cro Magnon Population Is Theur Language, But This Proves Nothing, Many Neolthic And Bronze Age Cultures With Languages That Were Non Indoeuropean Dotted Europe Well Into The Iron Age, And Most Were Recent Arrivals, Or Stem From The Neolithic, And The Area Of Iberia Experienced Many Neolithic Introductions, Its Not Like Its Isolated Like Scandinavia.A Language That Corrisponds To The Time Of The Vascone Language( Precursor To Basque ) Is Etruscan Which Probably Came From Palestine Post Neolithic. So What Is So Special About The Basques That Screams Cro Magnon Descendent? Has Already Come Up I Go Through This Giant

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    Quote Originally Posted by Anthro-inclined View Post
    To Me , It Seems Absurd To Keep Lumping The Basques With The Cromagnons. Other Than U8a There Is Nothing That Sets The Basques Apart From Other Western Europeans In Terms Of Genetic Composition. The Most Prevelant Argument For The Basques Being A Relic Cro Magnon Population Is Theur Language, But This Proves Nothing, Many Neolthic And Bronze Age Cultures With Languages That Were Non Indoeuropean Dotted Europe Well Into The Iron Age, And Most Were Recent Arrivals, Or Stem From The Neolithic, And The Area Of Iberia Experienced Many Neolithic Introductions, Its Not Like Its Isolated Like Scandinavia.A Language That Corrisponds To The Time Of The Vascone Language( Precursor To Basque ) Is Etruscan Which Probably Came From Palestine Post Neolithic. So What Is So Special About The Basques That Screams Cro Magnon Descendent? Has Already Come Up I Go Through This Giant
    I don't know if you are talking about Pi gman's words or mine. If you had talk about mine, you are very wrong. I did never said basques are the descendants of cromagnoids. I told basques (and the most of modern Spaniards, are the result of a R1b x cromanoid
    Mixture, being R1b dominant.

    The basque language is that could be the cromanoid language.

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    1 out of 1 members found this post helpful.
    Quote Originally Posted by Ziober View Post
    I don't know if you are talking about Pi gman's words or mine. If you had talk about mine, you are very wrong. I did never said basques are the descendants of cromagnoids. I told basques (and the most of modern Spaniards, are the result of a R1b x cromanoid
    Mixture, being R1b dominant.

    The basque language is that could be the cromanoid language.
    Wasnt Pointing The Rant At Anyone In Paticular, Just At The General Idea Of Basques Being Descendents Of Paleolithic Populations More So Than Other Europeans. Also To Reference Youre Comment On The Basque Language Being A Paleolithic European Remnant, There Is No Linguistic Evidence To Support This, As We Have No Knowledge Of Paleolithic European Languages, All The Talk Of It Could Be The Only Native European Language Is Story Telling. Genetic Evidence Says Otherwise, And The Evidence That Shows Many Neolithic Mjgrations Into Iberia, Says That The Language Is Likely Is A Migrant From North Africa Or The Middle East, And Came In The Bronze Or Neolithic Age.

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    The middle east component in modern spaniards is insignificant. Before the IE people came to Iberia, here were very important civilizations as "El Algar" and "Los Millares" so developed as the Middle East ones. Add to this the independent domestication of horse and we get another core of development. Favourable to spread.

    The evidence about basque such a possible cromanoid language is the nonexistent links between basque and every known language.

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    Wasnt Pointing The Rant At Anyone In Paticular, Just At The General Idea Of Basques Being Descendents Of Paleolithic Populations More So Than Other Europeans. Also To Reference Youre Comment On The Basque Language Being A Paleolithic European Remnant, There Is No Linguistic Evidence To Support This, As We Have No Knowledge Of Paleolithic European Languages, All The Talk Of It Could Be The Only Native European Language Is Story Telling. Genetic Evidence Says Otherwise, And The Evidence That Shows Many Neolithic Mjgrations Into Iberia, Says That The Language Is Likely Is A Migrant From North Africa Or The Middle East, And Came In The Bronze Or Neolithic Age.
    Sorry but why are u capitalizing the beginning of every single word. It is kinda annoying when trying to read your sentences.

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    Quote Originally Posted by Templar View Post
    Sorry but why are u capitalizing the beginning of every single word. It is kinda annoying when trying to read your sentences.
    Its My Phone, Automatically Caps All My Words, Been Too Lazy To Fix It.

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    Quote Originally Posted by Ziober View Post
    My hypothesis:

    I think R1b were nonconformist people whose were exploring to settle where they wish, always looking for a better way of life. Spreading from their original core in SW Iberia, and probably an important part of them were seduced by basque-aquitanian country way of life,country which in the surroundings were inhabited in those times by cromagnoids whose had speaks the language known as basque, So the R1b basques became sedentary with very attachment about their land, adopting a foreign language, the cromanoid language. R1b and cromagnoids were mixed forming the modern celtiberians (all around Iberia, not only in basque country). Another R1b people continued their voyage to French Brittany, Ireland, Scotland, Wales, England. Then became another expansion from the isles to Norway, and from Brittany-Aquitania to Central Europe. the R1b Central European people spreads to north Italy, the East Europe and Catalonia-Aragón-Rioja-Navarra in Iberia. The most plausible origin of R1b was in the SW of Iberia. At this point is very important to considerate the celtic "castros"(spanish word) in Cogotas I y II, and all about Vettons in general.
    I find it funny how you think R1b originated in the Iberian peninsula just because you happen to live there. All the evidence suggests that R1b came with the Indo-Europeans. R1b diversity isn't very high in Spain, nether is R1b frequency the highest there. Haplogroup I is the best candidate of being the oldest Y haplogroup in Europe. Everyone in the forum has put enough effort and evidence into pretty much proving that completely. Read all the old threads that have to do with haplogroups and their respective ages.

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    Quote Originally Posted by Anthro-inclined View Post
    Its My Phone, Automatically Caps All My Words, Been Too Lazy To Fix It.
    Ah, okay that makes sense.

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    Quote Originally Posted by Ziober View Post
    The middle east component in modern spaniards is insignificant. Before the IE people came to Iberia, here were very important civilizations as "El Algar" and "Los Millares" so developed as the Middle East ones. Add to this the independent domestication of horse and we get another core of development. Favourable to spread.

    The evidence about basque such a possible cromanoid language is the nonexistent links between basque and every known language.
    How Is It Being An Isolate Evidence, Could Have Entered In The Bronze Age, Like Many Pre Indo European Iberian Languages, With All The Others DyiNg Out After The Gallo Ramon Expansion Leaving Basque As The Only Remanant Of The Arrival. As I Referenced In One Of My Previous Posts, Estruscan Has No Connection To Other Languages, But We Can Link The Arrival Of The Estruscans To A Bronze Or Iron Age Migration From Palestine.

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    Y-DNA haplogroup
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    1 out of 1 members found this post helpful.
    migration from Palestine for Etruscans? cultural influences, maybe - or a surprising but possible link to a population of the Greece-Anatolia borders, linked to the so called Phillistins -I believe they were part of the big trouble produced by the "Sea Peoples" at one time - linguistical possible links to anatolian pre-I-E languages could make sense (even if personal names could seam hellenic) -
    Y-R1b west european subHGs doesn't seam born in Iberia - but Basques show definitely more links to N-W Europeans (heavy neo-celticremannts) than others Iberians, even if there is no broad genetic canyon separating Spaniards and Basques - and the relatively high level of so called 'gedrosia' component among Basques as in Neo-Celts popul

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    -ations is interesting too, as said yet by Spongetaro - as a whole, Western Europe and Scandinvai show more Gedrosia than other parts of Europe, closer enevrtheless to gedrosia gravity center... I have not made ma choice yet.

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