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Thread: How did the Basques become R1b

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    Quote Originally Posted by Sile View Post
    Bell Beakers is about pots and not about language........if you want to talk about basque language, then see if Vasconic script is basque, but leave BB out of language discussions.
    No, I won't do that. Bell Beaker folk had much more than just pots to make them distinctive. There's every reason to believe, based on archeology, that they represented a new population movement, possibly the one that brought Vasconic language to western Europe. Since nobody knows what language Bell Beaker folk spoke, I feel free to speculate. Present me with DNA evidence that the distinctive Bell Beaker population didn't represent a population turnover and I will change my mind.

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    Quote Originally Posted by Aberdeen View Post
    No, I won't do that. Bell Beaker folk had much more than just pots to make them distinctive. There's every reason to believe, based on archeology, that they represented a new population movement, possibly the one that brought Vasconic language to western Europe. Since nobody knows what language Bell Beaker folk spoke, I feel free to speculate. Present me with DNA evidence that the distinctive Bell Beaker population didn't represent a population turnover and I will change my mind.
    Your wasting your intellectual time in chasing that the BB where one race............as for basques they have been stabilized where they reside since the neolithic times.

    http://forwhattheywereweare.blogspot...n-origins.html

    archeologists have found BB pots from morocco to poland , the only logical explanation is that BB is only about pots and the ability to learn this type of pot as one neighbour learnt from another neighbour
    có che un pòpoło no 'l defende pi ła só łéngua el xe prónto par èser s'ciavo

    when a people no longer dares to defend its language it is ripe for slavery.

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    Quote Originally Posted by LeBrok View Post
    IIRC the oldest hg I was found in Europe and it is from Neolithic times, 8kya, and it was already diversified into I2a subclade. It means that original hg I needs to be much older than that.
    The total age of hg I is estimated mathematically based on frequency and number of mutations. So far it looks very plausible.
    Agree, but I'd be much happier with archaeological DNA proofs. When we have a rubber-band-like timeline of "very plausible" events it's valuable to pin down some of them with "certainty pins".

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    Quote Originally Posted by Ike View Post
    Agree, but I'd be much happier with archaeological DNA proofs. When we have a rubber-band-like timeline of "very plausible" events it's valuable to pin down some of them with "certainty pins".
    Sure, in 10-20 years dust should settle. The good news is that so far whatever we find fits mathematical predictions of mutations, and with every year scientists are getting better in it.
    Be wary of people who tend to glorify the past, underestimate the present, and demonize the future.

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    Quote Originally Posted by Sile View Post
    Your wasting your intellectual time in chasing that the BB where one race............as for basques they have been stabilized where they reside since the neolithic times.

    http://forwhattheywereweare.blogspot...n-origins.html

    archeologists have found BB pots from morocco to poland , the only logical explanation is that BB is only about pots and the ability to learn this type of pot as one neighbour learnt from another neighbour
    Maybe it would help if you actually learned something about the BB cultural package (which was much more than just pots) and the archeological and mtDNA evidence for BB people as an intrusive population that arrived in Europe during the late Neolithic. And that nonsense about "people are not pots" has been proven wrong time and time again, as new DNA evidence shows that yet another major cultural shift was also a population turnover. And I'm sure we'll have that evidence for BB eventually - the only two Y DNA examples we have for BB are also the two earliest examples of R1b in Europe.

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    Quote Originally Posted by Aberdeen View Post
    Maybe it would help if you actually learned something about the BB cultural package (which was much more than just pots) and the archeological and mtDNA evidence for BB people as an intrusive population that arrived in Europe during the late Neolithic. And that nonsense about "people are not pots" has been proven wrong time and time again, as new DNA evidence shows that yet another major cultural shift was also a population turnover. And I'm sure we'll have that evidence for BB eventually - the only two Y DNA examples we have for BB are also the two earliest examples of R1b in Europe.
    Are you telling me that the ancients had the ability to decide which haplogroups made which type of pots?
    Are you trying to tell me, that the ancient haplogroups migrated as per 1 haplogroup at a time....and that different waves of individual haplogroups went their own ways...............tell me, how did the ancients determine which person had which haplogroup?

    the only source we have is the emergence of haplogroups in certain area of the world , within a small time frame of each other , migrating together

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    Quote Originally Posted by Sile View Post
    Are you telling me that the ancients had the ability to decide which haplogroups made which type of pots?
    Are you trying to tell me, that the ancient haplogroups migrated as per 1 haplogroup at a time....and that different waves of individual haplogroups went their own ways...............tell me, how did the ancients determine which person had which haplogroup?

    the only source we have is the emergence of haplogroups in certain area of the world , within a small time frame of each other , migrating together
    I can't tell whether you're genuinely stupid or willfully stupid. Either way, you're going into the "ignore" pile. Bye.

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    Quote Originally Posted by Aberdeen View Post
    I can't tell whether you're genuinely stupid or willfully stupid. Either way, you're going into the "ignore" pile. Bye.
    lol

    here you go , for your "summary"
    More recently, data and calculations from Myres et al. (2011),[79] Cruciani et al. (2011)[80] Arredi et al. (2007),[81] and Balaresque et al. (2010)[82] suggest a Late Neolithic entry of M269 into Europe.

    These hypotheses appear to be corroborated by more direct evidence from ancient DNA. For example, Early Neolithic Y-DNA from Spain did not reveal any R1b, but rather E-V13 and G2a,[82] whilst a similar study from a French pre-Beaker Neolithic site revealed haplgroup G2a and I-P37.[83] It is only later, from a German Bell Beaker site dated to the third millennium BCE, that the first evidence for R1b is detected. Ancient Y-DNA results for the remains of Beaker people from Iberia have yet to be obtained.


    Whilst such studies are insightful, even if the dates postulated by authors are correct, they do not necessarily imply that the spread of a particular genetic marker represents a distinct population, 'tribe' or language group. As such, 'genetic studies' have often drawn criticisms not only from archaeologists and cultural anthropologists, but also from fellow population geneticists.[32]

    some need to keep their personnel dream..........but when all these speculations are done and dusted, one thing remains.......BB is about pots and the link between people and these types of pots. To link a type of pot to a haplogroup or language is wrong

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    Quote Originally Posted by Sile View Post
    Your wasting your intellectual time in chasing that the BB where one race............as for basques they have been stabilized where they reside since the neolithic times.

    http://forwhattheywereweare.blogspot...n-origins.html

    archeologists have found BB pots from morocco to poland , the only logical explanation is that BB is only about pots and the ability to learn this type of pot as one neighbour learnt from another neighbour

    It might be the correct explanation but i don't think it's the *only* logical explanation.

    IIRC Vinca were the first coppersmiths and Vinca disappeared but maybe some of them escaped whatever led to their disappearance and spread around Europe as a caste of coppersmiths and artisans like the African blacksmith castes.

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    Quote Originally Posted by Sile View Post
    lol

    here you go , for your "summary"
    More recently, data and calculations from Myres et al. (2011),[79] Cruciani et al. (2011)[80] Arredi et al. (2007),[81] and Balaresque et al. (2010)[82] suggest a Late Neolithic entry of M269 into Europe.

    These hypotheses appear to be corroborated by more direct evidence from ancient DNA. For example, Early Neolithic Y-DNA from Spain did not reveal any R1b, but rather E-V13 and G2a,[82] whilst a similar study from a French pre-Beaker Neolithic site revealed haplgroup G2a and I-P37.[83] It is only later, from a German Bell Beaker site dated to the third millennium BCE, that the first evidence for R1b is detected. Ancient Y-DNA results for the remains of Beaker people from Iberia have yet to be obtained.


    Whilst such studies are insightful, even if the dates postulated by authors are correct, they do not necessarily imply that the spread of a particular genetic marker represents a distinct population, 'tribe' or language group. As such, 'genetic studies' have often drawn criticisms not only from archaeologists and cultural anthropologists, but also from fellow population geneticists.[32]

    some need to keep their personnel dream..........but when all these speculations are done and dusted, one thing remains.......BB is about pots and the link between people and these types of pots. To link a type of pot to a haplogroup or language is wrong


    lack of ancient DNA, fellows:
    we have more mt-DNA than Y-DNA for ancient times - + 2 x Y-R1B or 0 x Y-R1b (or any sort of Y-DNA) don't mean too much things compared to the span of time and the territories to cover -

    and BB did not cover all Western Europe and the subsequent cultures labelled BBs were perhaps only influenced and boosted by genuine BBs - surely BBs had DNA and types but were they numerous enough to change the genetic landscape of Western Europe?
    the mt-DNA (kind of H) change in Germany put on their account were they entirely caused by them or by slightly older and younger moves (Atlantic Megalithers with a cultural and maybe partly demic push towards East?)
    the Trichterbecher (Funnel) people shew in some analysis an intermediary position between "sardinian" and "basque" what points towards Atlantic (I know: it could be their Hunt-Gath'rs part which could give this result, things are not simple) -
    concerning Y-R1b, WE DON'T KNOW FOR NOW WHERE THEY PASSED THROUGH INTO EUROPE!?! they came from East, but "East" is vague - there has been more than a "va-et-vient" W>>E + E>>W in Northern Europe between middle Neolithic and Bronze so... today, the last surveys concerning ancient DNA did not show any Y-R1b yet except the 2 in Germany...
    I think the most of Y-R1b bearers came from the Steppes and not from Anatolia, what doesn't disprove the passage of someones through South - and I think we can imagine than a first wave of Y-R1b could have spoken a not-I-E language (here I think in Basque)?
    I'm still a bit confused about this exciting (and boring) problem of basque language and Y-R1b; all the way, the Basques if not identical keep showing some affinities with occidental Celts and the BB problem doesn't seem providing clues for now -

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    I seriously thought I was one of the few people weird and crazy enough to care about this worthless shit. I'm amazed and overjoyed.

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    Quote Originally Posted by Maciamo View Post
    As I have explained in my R1b history, between 2500 and 1800 BCE Western Europe was invaded by Bronze-age Indo-European speakers carrying mostly the R1b paternal lineage.
    It's a very possible scenario, but it's necessary to take into account also that there was a R1b1 man inhumated inside an early cardial cave in the high Pyrenees (Els Trocs), accoring to "Massive migration from the steppe is a source for Indo-European languages in Europe"... it's necessary so to think about other possibilities, as that Neolithic G's were agriculture practicers and R1b were herders, being the first group always more abundant; other possibility would be that G's had their own inhumation rites and by that the archaelogists are getting more G's...

    The issue is yet open.

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    Quote Originally Posted by berun View Post
    ...it's necessary to take into account also that there was a R1b1 man inhumated inside an early cardial cave in the high Pyrenees (Els Trocs)...
    Not M269, though (the kind of R1b that dominates Europe). We have that centuries prior to El Trocs, out in what's now Russia.

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    Have you guys looked at the DNA results from ancient Basque burial grounds?

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    Why are my posts still subject to moderation?

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    all your writings dont explain why were basques speaking object-verb language and they have r1b . some writers say basques are asimilated celts or indo european people . at the time there isnt any power public who have assimilted indo-europeans in spain or south france . basques reality shows that oldest r1b forms werent speaking indo-european languages
    Last edited by A Ulubatlı Hasan; 30-01-17 at 08:15.

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    Quote Originally Posted by A Ulubatlı Hasan View Post
    all your writings dont explain why owere basques speaking ...
    Sums it up pretty well, such explanations can not satisfy. Conquerors humping a hundred local women each, and then don't care about their offsprings is just too hilarious to be true. Not to mention that they had to slaughter almost completely the male population of the indigenous people, for which I see no evidence, especially if we cannot see such harsh breaks in the culture at the arrival of the newcomers. The R1b-cowboys seemed to be far less aggressive compared to their eastern brothers of the east-european forrest plains.

    But most of all, I am absolutely certain that Daddy-King won't like Son-Prince to quibber in this strange local language to his subjects or even worse, to his 'soldiers'. That's a no-go for a conqueror. However you try to fit this theory in a conceivable manner, you have to fail.

    Trying to solve the problem I want to make a few proposals, which have enough likelihood and are not in conflict with common sense:
    1. The iberoceltic migrants never conquered the Basque country. No conquest, no 'occupation' of the language.
    2. The Basques in their Pyreneaen valleys had some hard time living there with lots of disasters - illness, avalanches, floods, hunger , you name it. Regular bottlenecks will be the consequences.
    3. Regularly the peopling of the valleys went down and people from the surrouding lowlands migrated into the mountain valleys. This is the way some R1b-farmers came into the Basque country.
    4. The isolation of the people there lead to genetic degeneration. Genetic diseases, infertility, you know. The newcomers, (maybe even carrying diseases, with which the indigenous people had some distress) with better genes were certainly procreating more successfully and therefore gradually increase in size, got assimilated within 3-4 generations, and despite their different haplogroup they became Basques, culturally and languagewise. Continued repetition of this lets the percentage of R1b grow until they are by far the most frequent haplogroup. The language is kept intact, but it will be enhanced with a lot of foreign vocabulary imported by the migrants, which obviously is the case with the Basque language.

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    http://forwhattheywereweare.blogspot...chive.html?m=1

    A post from blogger Maju about the Basque / DF27 issue. I agree mainly except for the area of formation. The Gascon-French side of the clade can be explained by the expanding Wascones in the sixth century.

    For those thinking that their R1b is debt by IE just is worth to look how Basques have 70% DF27 and their Cantabric neighbours (also in mountain isolated areas but allways Indoeuropean as Celtic or Latin) drop to 42%.

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    Quote Originally Posted by berun View Post
    http://forwhattheywereweare.blogspot...chive.html?m=1

    A post from blogger Maju about the Basque / DF27 issue. I agree mainly except for the area of formation. The Gascon-French side of the clade can be explained by the expanding Wascones in the sixth century.

    For those thinking that their R1b is debt by IE just is worth to look how Basques have 70% DF27 and their Cantabric neighbours (also in mountain isolated areas but allways Indoeuropean as Celtic or Latin) drop to 42%.
    Basque_French
    Lengyel_LN 0.563
    Western_HG 0.082
    Yamnaya_Samara 0.355
    chisq 15.364 tail_prob 0.166411

    Chalcolithic European Y DNA

    Basque country, SW France=100% I2a, G2a, H2
    Russia=90%+ R1b.

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    Your results are quite different than that of Genetiker... someone might fail, or both.
    Your Russian R1b are still in the steppes. They didn't change address.

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    no answer of mine
    - Y-R1b still appears recent in Iberia, and FOR THE MOST come from just North (South France? earlier from Alps?); I don't exclude some rarest R1b subclades (archaic forms and other lineages) came to Iberia before that at very low rates - the "Basque" Y-R1b seems to me come from North as others
    - the question of language is still there - since long ago I think, without any certainty, in a possible non-IE speaking part of more western Y-R1b; NO affirmation here -
    - why some western tribes of Y-R1b from somewhere in Western Steppes (rather than Anatolia) would not have reached western Europe without IE language when their relatives stayed in East has been lately indo-europeanized somewhere in Eastern Europe / Western Steppes ? - some tribes were in contact in the Steppes, with DNA exchanges I think, and some stayed finno-ugric when others spoke IEan and maybe others farther East some kind of turkic - not to say a language change is done in a short time what I don't believe at all.

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    Quote Originally Posted by MOESAN View Post
    ...why some western tribes of Y-R1b from somewhere in Western Steppes (rather than Anatolia) would not have reached western Europe without IE language when their relatives stayed in East has been lately indo-europeanized somewhere in Eastern Europe / Western Steppes ? - some tribes were in contact in the Steppes, with DNA exchanges I think, and some stayed finno-ugric when others spoke IEan and maybe others farther East some kind of turkic - not to say a language change is done in a short time what I don't believe at all.
    I think there is overwhelming evidence that all R1-people were Indoeuropean speakers from the beginning. Wherever they went, you find the traces of IE languages throughout the whole Eurasian continent. There is no need to twist ones mind to justify a different thesis.

    Linguists have tried a lot to find a connection between languages of the East and Basque - caucasian, uralic, turkic languages - and failed completely. The most probable explanation is still that Basque is an autochthonic language which has gathered some portion of its vocabulary from surrounding IE and nonIE languages.

    To account for the strange fact that old Iberian languages had retained their integrity despite the R1b-'invasion' we must look at the geography of western Europe. While the west and north of Europe has little barriers for the R1b migrants except for the Channel separating the UK from the continent, the European south has the Alpes and the Pyrenean mountains. You can't simply run over them with a big horde of people and cattle (or whatever). So the immigration was slow and the local population could not be outnumbered easily. The population density and the social organisation of the indigenous people on one hand, and the amount of newcomers and the time intervall, in which they came, decided, whose language became the dominant one. If the immigrants' population size grew slow compared to the population of the local population, they were assimilated before they outnumbered them, accepted the language of them and were already locals, before the next wave of newcomers arrived.

    It's not a coincidence that almost all known nonIE languages of ancient Europe (Tartessian, Iberian, Basque, Rhaeto-Etruscan, North-Picenic, Ligurian, Sikanic) were located south of the Alps and the Pyrenean mountains. The invaders couldn't move fast enough into the territories to force their language and culture upon the residents before they were assimilated.

  23. #173
    MarkoZ
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    Quote Originally Posted by ngc598 View Post
    I think there is overwhelming evidence that all R1-people were Indoeuropean speakers from the beginning. Wherever they went, you find the traces of IE languages throughout the whole Eurasian continent. There is no need to twist ones mind to justify a different thesis.
    It's one thing to say that the European clades of R1b & R1a were involved in the spread of Indo-European languages, but it's simply impossible that R1 was Indo-European speaking from the beginning.

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    Quote Originally Posted by MarkoZ View Post
    It's one thing to say that the European clades of R1b & R1a were involved in the spread of Indo-European languages, but it's simply impossible that R1 was Indo-European speaking from the beginning.
    Then my question:
    Which known R1-folk(s) did NOT speak an IE language from the beginning of their existence? (Evidence required!)

  25. #175
    MarkoZ
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    Quote Originally Posted by ngc598 View Post
    Then my question:
    Which known R1-folk(s) did NOT speak an IE language from the beginning of their existence? (Evidence required!)
    Apart from them many Turkic groups (who might have inherited their Y-DNA from Indo-Iranian speakers), there appear to be old clades of R1 all over Central & South Asia as far as Bhutan with no ovious association to Indo-European languages.

    That's not the real problem with the R1 = Indo-European equation though. It's the 15,000+ year gaps between the emergence of R1 and the breakup of PIE.

    That's not to say that your conclusions about R1b in Basques aren't reasonable, btw.

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