How did the Basques become R1b

[firetown]

Honestly ? I don't have a clue. Maybe some form of adaptation or natural selection ? Isolation ? Endogamy ? Why did some Europeans suddenly decide to grow red hair ? Or turn white ?

I can only go by what I read - namely that they are whg + enf + that tinge of something else.

Then something has to be wrong. Maybe it is the chart of rh- frequencies listed in the other thread. Otherwise it wouldn't make sense at all that whg and enf formed them.

But then again... according to the chart, rh negative frequencies would have gone down drastically in most of europe. So the question then would be to identify that "something else".

[gidai]

3.2: The Y chromosome haplogroup has changed without a considerable alteration of the autosomic admixture and mitochondrial haplogroups. This is too difficult to accept because 90% of basques are R1b-P312 ...

I think this his can explain this point.
https://www.eupedia.com/forum/thread...l=1#post551805

[firetown]

AND THAT THE r1B CELTS WERE ORIGINALLY SCYTHIANS FROM THE PONTIC STEPS- A HORSE AND CATTLE CULTURE!!

Looking at the timelines of the migrations, it would make more sense to state that both, the Scythians and the Celts are descendants of the Yamna people.

[Conastoga]

"So Basque never became R1b; Basque always was R1b, just everybody else became IE." Now, take in account Younger Dryas Event and refuges south. Take into account of Agazzis Glacial Lake last outburst c. 6,200 BCE raising sea levels significantly. The Atlantic climatic optimum c. 6,500 BCE needs considering while realizing it changes about 4,000 BCE during which time gardening has became significant in Iberian Peninsula. The Atlantic Maritime Culture ranged from c. 5,500 BCE into the middle Bronze Age. The sites range along the coast of Northern Spain and western French coast, around Ireland and the British Isles and into Scandinavia. I'm suggesting taking into account the weather periods and archaeological sites. I've seen several dates establishing the rise of R1b, several before Younger Dryas Catastrophe. And, archaeology knows about things that should really be considered. R1b just very well might taken refuge in the Iberian from the Last Glacial Maximum (LGM) and Younger Dryas while R1a took refuge through the Balkans/Anatolia. Those Asians you mentioned may well have taken refuge form the Steppes through Afghanistan across northern Indian's most "green lands" into Burma/Myanmar. I got a hunch Basque descend from Hunter-gatherers taking refuge in the Iberian Peninsula. After all, the "Ghost Theory" of a unknown population across Eurasia takes in account of the peopling of Native Americans having R1b and the X hablogroups rather it be during optimum climate before the Younger Dryas or after 9,600 BCE. I'm suggesting Basque may very well be considered indigenous LGM hunter-gatherer refugees later with a connection that Maritime Culture so many with little archaeological knowledge know about. Please excuse my "wordy" and digressive nature. Thank you kindly.

[Leptismagna]

Hi, Eupedia membership!

[GRDTobin]

As far as Basque L21 goes, there’s a plausible medieval contribution: the prolific Albret/Labrit family, whom I suspect to be a (self-conscious) part of the wide-ranging Late Antique British diaspora.

[GRDTobin]

Caps-lock key requires attention.

[GRDTobin]

A common cultural origin might explain what the Bretons and Alans appreciated in each other after 451.

[MOESAN]

"So Basque never became R1b; Basque always was R1b, just everybody else became IE." Now, take in account Younger Dryas Event and refuges south. Take into account of Agazzis Glacial Lake last outburst c. 6,200 BCE raising sea levels significantly. The Atlantic climatic optimum c. 6,500 BCE needs considering while realizing it changes about 4,000 BCE during which time gardening has became significant in Iberian Peninsula. The Atlantic Maritime Culture ranged from c. 5,500 BCE into the middle Bronze Age. The sites range along the coast of Northern Spain and western French coast, around Ireland and the British Isles and into Scandinavia. I'm suggesting taking into account the weather periods and archaeological sites. I've seen several dates establishing the rise of R1b, several before Younger Dryas Catastrophe. And, archaeology knows about things that should really be considered. R1b just very well might taken refuge in the Iberian from the Last Glacial Maximum (LGM) and Younger Dryas while R1a took refuge through the Balkans/Anatolia. Those Asians you mentioned may well have taken refuge form the Steppes through Afghanistan across northern Indian's most "green lands" into Burma/Myanmar. I got a hunch Basque descend from Hunter-gatherers taking refuge in the Iberian Peninsula. After all, the "Ghost Theory" of a unknown population across Eurasia takes in account of the peopling of Native Americans having R1b and the X hablogroups rather it be during optimum climate before the Younger Dryas or after 9,600 BCE. I'm suggesting Basque may very well be considered indigenous LGM hunter-gatherer refugees later with a connection that Maritime Culture so many with little archaeological knowledge know about. Please excuse my "wordy" and digressive nature. Thank you kindly.

do have a look at Maciamo Eupedia about Y-R1b - it could help you -

[Piro Ilir]

According to our linguists, S.A. Starostin and I. Garshin, http://www.garshin.ru/linguistics/la...ian/index.html Basque language belongs to the Dene-Caucasian language group, alongside with other languages noted in the discussion (believe me, I read all 8 pages!), most of speakers of them belongs to the Y-DNA haplogroup C.

On the pictures:
1. Dene-Caucasian languages according to the "glosso-chronological" research,
2. Today's distribution of the C Y-DNA Haplogroup,
3. Modern people who has C Y-DNA Haplogroup,
4. A hunter from La Brania-Arintero (pre-historic Spain),
5. A hunter from Sunghir (pre-historic Russia).

Attachment 9840Attachment 9841Attachment 9842Attachment 9843Attachment 9844

Soviet era scholars are generally biased. Too politically motivated. Albanian and Albanians were considered of Caucasian stock by them. Basque is autochtonous, and has nothing to do with Caucasus, at least since hunter gatherings times.

[Angela]

I talk loudly, and write the same way!!!������

TURN DOWN THE VOLUME!

Was that loud enough? You have no clue what you're talking about and you're disrupting threads with nonsense questions. Do some reading before you opine.

Some of what you're doing is tantamount to spamming.

[Carlos]

There is a group of Basque scholars and the rest of Spain who defend that the Basque is the Iberian and the Iberian the Basque and that there could possibly be different ways of speaking it according to the distance between the territories. They have come to the conclusion that the Ibero came from a Altaic language, turkish or tungus, would be to define or the drift that would have taken in Iberia logically. I was reading these hypotheses the same day that in some of my personal oracles I had taken out myself a two and a half percent of ancestral Altaic and also some Altaic tungus, so I saw that hypothesis feasible.

[Carlos]

I think that the way to see the Basques today in its origin, exceptionality, mysticism, mystery e.t.c. it comes from the hand of the German Nazis. When half of France is occupied by the Nazis a large number of German soldiers who were not from the SS occupy the area and lead a pleasant life between the French Basque country and Spanish, they are distracted, they go to eat, walks, sports, e.t.c. they have the necessary time to look at the Basque population and see in them a fact differentiated from the rest of the French or Spaniards, maybe because of the language, they are moments of leisure where they discover that the swastika is also used in some decorative motifs of the Basque country, The Nazis put the Basques on the map and in the view of the world with their ideas most often wrong. The publicity is great, when one is half on vacation is very happy and evidently in the north of Spain eats well as in many other places, but that publication lasts until our days, but good in the end that is another subject. Returning to the subject, perhaps the Nazis had the idea of ​​occupying the north of Spain until they reach Galicia, are moments in which there is a siesta of the Nazis with the Basque territories on both sides, but the Russians attack and the Nazis withdraw of the Basque area because they have to gather all their troops to counteract the Russians. It is a moment in which Basque nationalists, already spoiled by leisure Nazism, want to take advantage of the opportunity and send letters to Germany asking to be protected in the new order that would be established in Europe, Basque nationalism believed that Nazism would finally win, in finish. These letters asking for protection and exalting the similarities between the German and Basque people exist and are full of annotations on the margins made by the Germans even in mockery. For the Nazis it was a moment of leisure for the Basque Country but they had no interest beyond, what they could win or what they would have that interest with the Basques.


I think that in that Nazi leisure advertising of the moment and perhaps because of their ideas of occupying the north of Spain, for what they were interested in staying in a friendly way in the Basque part of Spain without raising too many suspicions before Franco is where such an exaggerated vision resides of exceptionality with the Basques.

If they agree, click like

[Tamakore]

The interesting thing about Basque language and culture is that it's the exception that proves the rule. It seems to have an ability to withstand linguistic "steamrollers" that is unique, in Europe at least.

Perhaps the first linguistic steamroller that the Basque language survived was associated with the first farmers who arrived in Iberia via the Mediterranean route. These farmers would have a spoken a language related to languages in the Near East from whence they came (something Hamo-Semitic? Elamo-Dravidian?). Even those who speculate about early language families associated with the spread of farming, such as Nostratic, do not try to include Basque in their super-family, it's just too different. On this basis I'm assuming that Basque pre-dates farming in Western Europe.

Basque may even pre-date the Mesolithic expansion from South East Europe after the last Ice Age. Perhaps Basque descends from a language spoken by the Magdalenians who originated in Iberia 19,000 years ago. If so, the Mesolithic linguistic steamroller could be the first they resisted.

Another linguistic steamroller was that associated with the Bell Beakers bringing the earliest Indo-European languages to Western Europe. Perhaps the Bell Beakers spoke proto-Italo-Celtic. Whatever they spoke, it was an Indo-European language that Basque withstood.

Then there was the Iron Age expansion of Celtic languages over much of Western Europe. There may have been other non-Celtic languages in Iberia that resisted the Iron Age Celts, but if so they eventually died out, since Basque is the only pre-Iron Age language that survives. Next came the Roman steamroller, and as a result most of the people in continental Western Europe colonized by the Romans speak a Latin language today. Again, Basque stands out as an exception. Since Roman times Basques have continued to resist attempts to assimilate them and wipe out their language, although it seems that the Basque speaking region has been reduced in size over the centuries.

So what gives the Basque language this unique ability to defy the rule that conquerors tend to impose their language on the conquered? Some might point to the Pyrenees as a mountain refuge where Basques could retreat when under attack and keep their language alive. This might have been one factor, but there are other mountain ranges in Europe where no pre-Indo-European languages survive. My theory is that Basque culture had some way of absorbing invaders and converting some of the male elites among the invaders to the Basque language. I don't know how this happened, but Basques have a rich tradition of oral poetry. Perhaps instead of pointless resistance, the Basques seduced invaders with the beauty of their culture and their women. Making love not war, with a welcoming and hospitable attitude. Even their attitude towards the Nazi invaders might be an example of this cultural difference.

I'm only speculating, but this would explain how the Basques became R1b. They welcomed and seduced invaders, absorbing them into their culture, language and gene pool. While Basques are genetically distinctive in some ways, neither their Y haplogroups nor their mtDNA haplogroups reflect pre-Neolithic Spain or France. Genetically they are probably now quite different from the people who spoke proto-Basque thousands of years ago, but the language has survived due to unique features of Basque culture.

[JacobP]

I think Iberia was the most populated place in Europe at the time of IE migrations into europe because de glaciations. And I think R1a was IE, R1b was Iberian mutation on R1a. So R1a cames to Iberia several time before the IE biggest migration waves.

Well...haplogroups don't exactly work that way.R1b is a seperate haplogroup from R1a,not a mutation,they just happen to be related.The peoples who carried the R1b hg. predate the IE expansion into europe,yet at the exact same time,the IE people carried both R1b and R1a hgs.The only difference being that these were two different subgroups of the R1b hg.One,which was carried by the pre-IE people of iberia,and the other one being carried by the IEs.

[CrazyDonkey]

They carry the R1b-clade not associated with Indo-Europeans/Yamnaya.

According to Maciamo's map: P312<--L11<--L51<--L23<--M269 (Indo-Europeans/Yamnaya)

https://www.eupedia.com/europe/Haplo...1b_Y-DNA.shtml

[Osmond]

I think that the way to see the Basques today in its origin, exceptionality, mysticism, mystery e.t.c. it comes from the hand of the German Nazis. When half of France is occupied by the Nazis a large number of German soldiers who were not from the SS occupy the area and lead a pleasant life between the French Basque country and Spanish, they are distracted, they go to eat, walks, sports, e.t.c. they have the necessary time to look at the Basque population and see in them a fact differentiated from the rest of the French or Spaniards, maybe because of the language, they are moments of leisure where they discover that the swastika is also used in some decorative motifs of the Basque country, The Nazis put the Basques on the map and in the view of the world with their ideas most often wrong. The publicity is great, when one is half on vacation is very happy and evidently in the north of Spain eats well as in many other places, but that publication lasts until our days, but good in the end that is another subject. Returning to the subject, perhaps the Nazis had the idea of ​​occupying the north of Spain until they reach Galicia, are moments in which there is a siesta of the Nazis with the Basque territories on both sides, but the Russians attack and the Nazis withdraw of the Basque area because they have to gather all their troops to counteract the Russians. It is a moment in which Basque nationalists, already spoiled by leisure Nazism, want to take advantage of the opportunity and send letters to Germany asking to be protected in the new order that would be established in Europe, Basque nationalism believed that Nazism would finally win, in finish. These letters asking for protection and exalting the similarities between the German and Basque people exist and are full of annotations on the margins made by the Germans even in mockery. For the Nazis it was a moment of leisure for the Basque Country but they had no interest beyond, what they could win or what they would have that interest with the Basques.


I think that in that Nazi leisure advertising of the moment and perhaps because of their ideas of occupying the north of Spain, for what they were interested in staying in a friendly way in the Basque part of Spain without raising too many suspicions before Franco is where such an exaggerated vision resides of exceptionality with the Basques.

If they agree, click like

Huh? I always thought Nazi Germany disliked the Basque people. Didn't they once bomb Gipuzkoa and/or some other areas of Basque country? Also, Nazi Germany and Franco's Spain were allies in the Spanish civil war. So would that not mean the Germans were enemies of the Basques? I had always heard this, before.

Also, the Basques and Scandinavian Germans (or Nordic's) always had a rivalry or long grudge in Europe; Spanning multiple centuries, as well. For a while, it was possible to legally kill a human being in Iceland as long as that human being was of Basque ancestry and nothing else. Iceland only recently removed that bizarre freedom. (In other words; It was legal to kill people of Basque heritage in Iceland, until recently.)

[firetown]

So what gives the Basque language this unique ability to defy the rule that conquerors tend to impose their language on the conquered? Some might point to the Pyrenees as a mountain refuge where Basques could retreat when under attack and keep their language alive. This might have been one factor, but there are other mountain ranges in Europe where no pre-Indo-European languages survive. My theory is that Basque culture had some way of absorbing invaders and converting some of the male elites among the invaders to the Basque language. I don't know how this happened, but Basques have a rich tradition of oral poetry. Perhaps instead of pointless resistance, the Basques seduced invaders with the beauty of their culture and their women. Making love not war, with a welcoming and hospitable attitude. Even their attitude towards the Nazi invaders might be an example of this cultural difference.

I think it's much more simple than that. The invaders produced offspring, the Basque women brought them up without much presence of the fathers.

I'm only speculating, but this would explain how the Basques became R1b. They welcomed and seduced invaders, absorbing them into their culture, language and gene pool. While Basques are genetically distinctive in some ways, neither their Y haplogroups nor their mtDNA haplogroups reflect pre-Neolithic Spain or France. Genetically they are probably now quite different from the people who spoke proto-Basque thousands of years ago, but the language has survived due to unique features of Basque culture.

I don't see the seductions part. They slaughtered the Basque men and took the women. You make it sound very romantic.

[Hawk]

What if they do carry the language of R1b (Iberians spoke non IE and had plenty of R1b as well), what if the other R1b clades got Indo-Europeanized by CHG migrants from South? We should not forget that David Reich thinks the origin of PIE is South Caucasus.

[firetown]

What if they do carry the language of R1b (Iberians spoke non IE and had plenty of R1b as well), what if the other R1b clades got Indo-Europeanized by CHG migrants from South? We should not forget that David Reich thinks the origin of PIE is South Caucasus.

Y-DNA G presence in Proto-Basques does indicate Caucasus ancestry.

[Carlos]

Huh? I always thought Nazi Germany disliked the Basque people. Didn't they once bomb Gipuzkoa and/or some other areas of Basque country? Also, Nazi Germany and Franco's Spain were allies in the Spanish civil war. So would that not mean the Germans were enemies of the Basques? I had always heard this, before.

Also, the Basques and Scandinavian Germans (or Nordic's) always had a rivalry or long grudge in Europe; Spanning multiple centuries, as well. For a while, it was possible to legally kill a human being in Iceland as long as that human being was of Basque ancestry and nothing else. Iceland only recently removed that bizarre freedom. (In other words; It was legal to kill people of Basque heritage in Iceland, until recently.)

https://verne.elpais.com/verne/2015/...93_692828.html

Well it's true, go.

Pretty savagery

[Carlos]

Other ancient Basque samples even get Carthaginian. And ilergetes, El Argar, Vettones (Cogotas), La Loma del Puerco, and all of them obtain vascones and the vascones obtain them.


What motorcycle have you wanted to sell with the vascones? Where was the wall?


Some of the results of this Basque sample

246. Early Medieval Andalusia (760 AD) ..... 22.96 - I3585 -
235. Carthago Al-Andalus Alhama de Granada (1200 AD) ..... 22.18 - I7457
225. Portuguese Cordoba Caliphate (1050 AD) ..... 21.96 - I12514 -
219. Iberian Cordoba Caliphate (1050 AD) ..... 21.74 - I7498
180. Medieval Iberian (580 AD) ..... 20.45 - CL23
161. Tartessian Archaic Andalusia (600 BC) ..... 19.22 - I12561
159. Latin Aristocrat Castel di Decima (800 BC) ..... 19.15 - R1016 -
155. Iberian El Argar Bronze Age (1500 BC) ..... 18.96 - I8136
154. Latin Tribe Ardea (650 BC) ..... 18.83 - R851 -
141. Portugal Middle Bronze Age (1580 BC) ..... 18.03 - MonteGato104
139. Bronze Age Loma del Puerco (1800 BC) ..... 17.97 - I7162 -
138. Etruscan Civitavecchia (650 BC) ..... 17.97 - R473 -

etc

[firetown]

https://verne.elpais.com/verne/2015/...93_692828.html

Well it's true, go.

Pretty savagery

That's probably why they waited so long to get rid of the law knowing it would be brought up in the news.

[celtiberian-II]

Huh? I always thought Nazi Germany disliked the Basque people. Didn't they once bomb Gipuzkoa and/or some other areas of Basque country?

Also, Nazi Germany and Franco's Spain were allies in the Spanish civil war. So would that not mean the Germans were enemies of the Basques? I had always heard this, before.

The Nazi army bomb Guipuzkoa, Barcelona, Madrid, Valencia and many other places in Spain.
Nazi and Franco's troops were allies against the Spanish people. Very sad.

[kmak]

I think that R1b is not originally Proto-IE but IEized by R1a peoples. R1b originally speak grandfather of Proto-Vasconic or grandfather of Proto-Vasconic like languages.