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  1. #1
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    4 out of 5 members found this post helpful.

    Post How did the Basques become R1b

    We have discussed this topic extensively in various threads on the forum over the years, but there doesn't seem to be one thread dedicated to the subject. I will summarise my thoughts here so that I don't have to repeat myself every time.

    As I have explained in my R1b history, between 2500 and 1800 BCE Western Europe was invaded by Bronze-age Indo-European speakers carrying mostly the R1b paternal lineage.

    I could be believed that the Basques escaped this Indo-European invasion because they retained their non-IE language to this day. That is not the case.

    In Iberia, it seems that the (Proto-)Celts of the early Bronze Age simply failed to impose their language not just over the Basque and Aquitanians, but also over all Mediterranean Iberia. In fact, there is no conclusive evidence that (Proto-)Celtic was spoken in Iberia before the Iron Age, with the La Tène expansion of the Celts to Northeast Iberia. Iberian was still spoken when the Romans arrived. It was the Romanisation that eventually obliterated Iberian language around the 2nd century.

    I think it is very possible that all Iberia and Southwest France, and not just the Basques, kept their original Neolithic languages following the Bronze Age Indo-European invasions.

    The survival of the indigenous language would have been the most likely scenario if the IE/R1b invaders were predominantly men. An army of adventurous Celtic men riding horses and equipped with bronze weapons could have butchered a substantial part of the Neolithic Iberian male population and taken their women. As good conquerors they would have taken many wives or concubines each (polygamy), having a great many children each, which helped the spread of R1b Y-DNA lineages (see How did R1b become dominant in Western Europe). Children, however, learn the language of the people who raise them, and these kinds of fathers would not have been able to take care of so many children. They would have concentrated on ruling their new land and enjoying their privileges, and left the education of their offspring to the (local) women.

    After one, or a few, generation(s) their IE language would have completed disappeared, leaving only the previous Neolithic languages. It is possible, and even expected, that a few loanwords from (Proto-)Celtic entered the non-IE languages of Iberia and Southwest France to fill the gaps in vocabulary for new Bronze Age technologies brought by the Indo-Europeans. This is exactly what we see in the modern Basque vocabulary. I expect that the same happened to all other non-IE languages of the peninsula in the Bronze Age.
    Last edited by Maciamo; 09-08-13 at 12:31.
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    3 out of 4 members found this post helpful.
    Quote Originally Posted by Maciamo View Post

    As I have explained in my R1b history, between 2500 and 2000 BCE Western Europe was invaded by Bronze-age Indo-European speakers carrying mostly the R1b paternal lineage.

    I could be believed that the Basques escaped this Indo-European invasion because they retained their non-IE language to this day. That is not the case.

    R1b folks haven’t been IE horse riders at the first place they were seafarers and belonged to Cardium Pottery or Cardial Ware culture. They migrated from Levant (that’s why R1b Basques have no Caucasian component) by water route along seashore and made first European settlement in present day Albania (see map below).
    ImpressedWare.jpg


    Albania is the palace where the first European clades below R1b-L23 have appeared. It’s pretty much obvious and can be seen on the map for R1b-L151 and R1b-L51 distribution.

    http://foto.rambler.ru/photos/51179ebd-c189-9a89-7d9e-0c95bc909bcb/

    Moving along seashores R1b folks soon reached South France then Portugal and Britannia. From history we know them as Ibero-Ligurians. Spread and distribution of U152 clades mirror expansion of Ligures in inland France and Iberian peninsular.
    Later they were captured and assimilated be IE folks.

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    Quote Originally Posted by GloomyGonzales View Post
    R1b folks haven’t been IE horse riders at the first place they were seafarers and belonged to Cardium Pottery or Cardial Ware culture. They migrated from Levant (that’s why R1b Basques have no Caucasian component) by water route along seashore and made first European settlement in present day Albania (see map below).
    ImpressedWare.jpg


    Albania is the palace where the first European clades below R1b-L23 have appeared. It’s pretty much obvious and can be seen on the map for R1b-L151 and R1b-L51 distribution.

    http://foto.rambler.ru/photos/51179ebd-c189-9a89-7d9e-0c95bc909bcb/

    Moving along seashores R1b folks soon reached South France then Portugal and Britannia. From history we know them as Ibero-Ligurians. Spread and distribution of U152 clades mirror expansion of Ligures in inland France and Iberian peninsular.
    Later they were captured and assimilated be IE folks.
    I have seen this before and do not entirely diagree with it. it does mean a landing anywhere between the Italian riviera and catalonia
    Father's Mtdna H95a1
    Grandfather Mtdna T2b24
    Great Grandfather Mtdna T1a1e
    GMother paternal side YDna R1b-S8172
    Mother's YDna R1a-Z282

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    1 out of 1 members found this post helpful.
    My last post on this site.


    How about this R1b is a western European hg, and R1a is an eastern European haplogroup.

    How about maybe because the celts lived in western europe, you're wrongly assuming a modern nation has monopoly over a y-chromosome.

    How about maybe the Slavs lived in Eastern Europe, and you're wrongfully assuming the same thing.

    How about the Indo-Europeans were a mixture of R1b, R1a, I, J, K, L, M, N, O, P, considering they were modern tribes living in the cross roads of humanity in Eurasia.

    How about there were different tribes of R1b, some pre-IE, some IE.

    Can you explain this to me, since R1b is 18,000 years old, and in Chad/Cameroon this goes up to 90% frequency, and those people are definitely not 90% white, are you saying R1b carriers were black 18,000 thousands years ago?

    Assuming you're considering them as Europeans 6000 years ago, are you saying they went from black to white in a little over 10,000 years? Think about that.

    Ill say it again, as I made this analogy before.

    Haplogroups are like stds. You can spread them around, give them to the next person, make maps out of it, but it doesn't tell you anything about the genetic content of the person. It just says they have an std.

    Goodbye to you, good sir, and all the people in this forum.

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    1 out of 1 members found this post helpful.
    Quote Originally Posted by Finalise View Post
    How about this R1b is a western European hg, and R1a is an eastern European haplogroup.
    Anciently/originally? How anciently? Who introduced it? These are the questions we're trying to answer.

    Quote Originally Posted by Finalise View Post
    How about maybe because the celts lived in western europe, you're wrongly assuming a modern nation has monopoly over a y-chromosome.
    Who is saying that "a modern nation has monopoly over a y-chromosome"? You're not responding to anybody.

    Quote Originally Posted by Finalise View Post
    How about the Indo-Europeans were a mixture of R1b, R1a, I, J, K, L, M, N, O, P, considering they were modern tribes living in the cross roads of humanity in Eurasia.
    Who is saying that the Indo-Europeans were not a mixture? (And seriously? M? You're not even trying.)

    Quote Originally Posted by Finalise View Post
    How about there were different tribes of R1b, some pre-IE, some IE.
    Did anybody say anything that would contradict this? The question is how a particular non-IE group came to be R1b dominant.

    Quote Originally Posted by Finalise View Post
    Can you explain this to me, since R1b is 18,000 years old, and in Chad/Cameroon this goes up to 90% frequency, and those people are definitely not 90% white, are you saying R1b carriers were black 18,000 thousands years ago?
    That doesn't follow under anybody's logic that I've read.

    Quote Originally Posted by Finalise View Post
    Assuming you're considering them as Europeans 6000 years ago, are you saying they went from black to white in a little over 10,000 years? Think about that.
    I would think about that... but it doesn't make any sense...

    Quote Originally Posted by Finalise View Post
    Ill say it again, as I made this analogy before.

    Haplogroups are like stds. You can spread them around, give them to the next person, make maps out of it, but it doesn't tell you anything about the genetic content of the person. It just says they have an std.
    That's nonsensical. A Y-DNA haplogroup is a part of the genetics of a man. You're also severely underestimating the amount of information Y-DNA analysis of populations can contain. It has many advantages over autosomal analysis, the most important being that it is much easier to date. It is also easier to isolate certain strains (haplogroups vs. components) and assign meaning to them.

    Your STD analogy only works to a point. Actually, if we were to sample virus strains and determine their phylogeny, we would have a very good understanding of how they were passed historically, as well as the point of origin... of the virus. If you want to find points of origins of human paternal lineages, obviously Y-DNA is much more useful than STDs.

    Quote Originally Posted by Finalise View Post
    Goodbye to you, good sir, and all the people in this forum.
    See ya.

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    1 out of 1 members found this post helpful.
    Quote Originally Posted by Finalise View Post
    My last post on this site.

    This is the 3rd "last post" you mentioned.

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    Quote Originally Posted by Finalise View Post
    My last post on this site.


    How about this R1b is a western European hg, and R1a is an eastern European haplogroup.

    How about maybe because the celts lived in western europe, you're wrongly assuming a modern nation has monopoly over a y-chromosome.

    How about maybe the Slavs lived in Eastern Europe, and you're wrongfully assuming the same thing.

    How about the Indo-Europeans were a mixture of R1b, R1a, I, J, K, L, M, N, O, P, considering they were modern tribes living in the cross roads of humanity in Eurasia.

    How about there were different tribes of R1b, some pre-IE, some IE.

    Can you explain this to me, since R1b is 18,000 years old, and in Chad/Cameroon this goes up to 90% frequency, and those people are definitely not 90% white, are you saying R1b carriers were black 18,000 thousands years ago?

    Assuming you're considering them as Europeans 6000 years ago, are you saying they went from black to white in a little over 10,000 years? Think about that.

    Ill say it again, as I made this analogy before.

    Haplogroups are like stds. You can spread them around, give them to the next person, make maps out of it, but it doesn't tell you anything about the genetic content of the person. It just says they have an std.

    Goodbye to you, good sir, and all the people in this forum.
    The funny part to me is before bronze age collapse invasions like this were virtually impossible or anyway incredibly slow, and after it we already know most of what there is to know, all of which says this is all just crap. Aside from this site I have never seen anyone let alone a group of people so sure they know so much about IE origins, and have such an out there whacko impossible theory.

    So too bad to see you go, this kind of view is not the norm.

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    I'd like to add:

    - We have late Neolithic R1b from del Bell Beaker site in Germany, so definetely predates the Bronze Age. Just a remark, I know it's probably irrelevant if it's a late Neolithic or an Early Bronze Age event.

    - Taking autosomal tests as reference, the Basques along with Sardinians seem to be the least affected by the IE invasions. One could wonder if there were many different IE waves, and the first speakers in Europe were not the carriers of some components. Or in other words, there wasn't much of a difference between the first IE invaders and the Neolithic population regarding genetics.

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    Quote Originally Posted by Knovas View Post
    I'd like to add:

    - We have late Neolithic R1b from del Bell Beaker site in Germany, so definetely predates the Bronze Age. Just a remark, I know it's probably irrelevant if it's a late Neolithic or an Early Bronze Age event.
    I think bell beaker culture was originated in SW Iberia. Brought to Europe by celts describing a circle as the clock direction, from west facade into actual France, then Germany, finally from Germany to NE Iberia. The first were tartessian, vettons, celticis, gaellics. The "back to home" cames from Central Europe hallsatt people entering Iberia and becaming celtiberians (actual catalonia, aragon, soria, la rioja, NE castilla la mancha)

    http://www.worldfamilies.net/forum/i...10990.320;wap2

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    Quote Originally Posted by Knovas View Post
    I'd like to add:

    - We have late Neolithic R1b from del Bell Beaker site in Germany, so definetely predates the Bronze Age. Just a remark, I know it's probably irrelevant if it's a late Neolithic or an Early Bronze Age event.
    I thought BB R1b represents an additional problem for the IE R1b theory. Do you mean that the R1b in that one Bell Beaker was inherited from very first Bronze age IE invaders and that Bell Beakers were originally not R1b?

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    Quote Originally Posted by Maciamo View Post
    The survival of the indigenous language would have been the most likely scenario if the IE/R1b invaders were predominantly men. An army of adventurous Celtic men riding horses and equipped with bronze weapons could have butchered a substantial part of the Neolithic Iberian male population and taken their women. As good conquerors they would have taken many wives or concubines each (polygamy), having a great many children each, which helped the spread of R1b Y-DNA lineages (see How did R1b become dominant in Western Europe). Children, however, learn the language of the people who raise them, and these kinds of fathers would not have been able to take care of so many children. They would have concentrated on ruling their new land and enjoying their privileges, and left the education of their offspring to the (local) women.
    Replace the horses with boats and this sounds alot like the Vikings. Or the Anglo-Saxons. Or even the Normans. What comes around goes around I guess.

    R1b hasn't always been the sedate, cultured haplogroup we see today. And here I was feeling guilty about I1's past rampages.

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    Finalise, you should reconsider leaving the site. Just because you have a differing opinion from another individual (or group), that's no reason to excuse yourself from the exchange of ideas. Life is about contrasting viewpoints, if everyone agreed all the time wouldn't we all get bored quickly?

    Plenty of language experts on Eupedia would love nothing more than to dissect past perfect tenses of Latin verbs with you. That's not my thing, but I don't begrudge others for their niche interests-- nor should you. So please continue to contribute on this site, and use your sense of humor as a shield to protect you from any errant blows.

    Now back to R1b Basque... I don't see how this tribe could maintain such a seperate identity by travelling through an over-land route. I'm thinking they originally arrived in Iberia by boat (via Med. Sea) with not much interaction along the way. And their current population advantage comes from implementing more complex organizational networks over time rather than pressing military advantages.

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    I still think it is possible that R1b in Western Europe can be a late Neolithic fenomenon before the arrival of Indo-European languages. It is possible for people in a large area to take their language from a small ruling elite (see Hungarians, Romance people).

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    There was already R1b during the late Neolithic. If they were IE speakers or not, that's another issue, but seems pretty much a Celtic marker (or mostly carried by Celts), who clearly spoke IE. On the other hand, what it's an evidence is that, despite the high R1b levels among Basques, they fall definetely outside the modern European variation when checking autosomal tests. That means overall they were the least affected by the successive migrations, and possibly R1b has little to do with some components, specially the West Asian genetic signature, the one which seems to correlate with the IE irruption into Europe. But as I said, maybe the initial wave only carried a haplogroup (R1b), and we could be dealing with a population fairly similar to the Neolithic pre-IE inhabitants in genetic terms. That would explain why the Basques still show such a curious peculiarity, and points to the need of another explanation for the autosomal results.

    If the answer is that only some types of R1b carried the West Asian related components, then I am not enough versed to speculate which ones and why the Basques were not impregned by them. That would probably consist on checking common subclades which Basques lack or simply possess at very low levels.

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    Sennevini and Knovas--both of your last comments work with my Med. boat theory. Travel over water gets them to Iberia faster and earlier than wandering on foot (or even horse).

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    I think there are two ways in which R1b could have reached Western Europe, all of which is just guessing, but we have to start somewhere:

    I: They came from Balkan/Anatolia and travelled along the Danube and Rhine, spreading over the more sparse populated Western Europe, profiting in population growth from their late neolithic agriculture for which there was a lot of space in Western Europe.

    II: they came from the sea directly (also from Balkan/Anatolia) in Western Europe, but, because the variance of R1b is higher in France than Iberia, I prefer the place of arrival then more in Southern France.

    For now, if R1b can be connected with a pre-Indo-European rapid spreading late neolithic culture, I would prefer the Danube setting, but I certainly think we should not underestimate the faring skills of the people in this time.

    The arrival of Indo-European just seems slightly to late for me to have tremendous effect on the population (even in the more changeable Y-dna) as a whole. As said, language can be taken from a powerful (small) elite, of which there are examples.
    That does not mean I disregard spread of language with spread of people; no, of course, when for example pioneers take possession of a land (as in America, but also in the neolithic), they will take their language with them.

    To stay on topic: if we see the spread of R1b as suggested by me, Basque may have been a language spread in neolithic by R1b-people.

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    2 out of 2 members found this post helpful.
    Quote Originally Posted by Sennevini View Post
    I think there are two ways in which R1b could have reached Western Europe, all of which is just guessing, but we have to start somewhere:

    I: They came from Balkan/Anatolia and travelled along the Danube and Rhine, spreading over the more sparse populated Western Europe, profiting in population growth from their late neolithic agriculture for which there was a lot of space in Western Europe.

    II: they came from the sea directly (also from Balkan/Anatolia) in Western Europe, but, because the variance of R1b is higher in France than Iberia, I prefer the place of arrival then more in Southern France.

    For now, if R1b can be connected with a pre-Indo-European rapid spreading late neolithic culture, I would prefer the Danube setting, but I certainly think we should not underestimate the faring skills of the people in this time.
    I also think that the seafaring abilities of people 5000 years ago would have been sufficient for them to travel long distances across the Black Sea and Mediterranean. However the size of the ships would have been small and they could never have launched a massive migration or invasion by sea. Neolithic farmers certainly used ships to colonise the Mediterranean coast and islands, but I seriously doubt that the Indo-Europeans from the Pontic Steppe did, apart maybe for moving along the Black Sea coast. A small contingent of immigrants landing in France or Iberia would never have been able to take over the whole of Western Europe in a few centuries. That is just not possible. Additionally the archaeological record doesn't show any new Bronze Age or steppe culture springing out of nowhere in France or Iberia, but clearly shows a slow progression from Ukraine and Romania along the Danube, then from Germany to all Western Europe. There is not the slightest doubt about that in my mind.

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    Quote Originally Posted by Maciamo View Post
    I also think that the seafaring abilities of people 5000 years ago would have been sufficient for them to travel long distances across the Black Sea and Mediterranean. However the size of the ships would have been small and they could never have launched a massive migration or invasion by sea. Neolithic farmers certainly used ships to colonise the Mediterranean coast and islands, but I seriously doubt that the Indo-Europeans from the Pontic Steppe did, apart maybe for moving along the Black Sea coast. A small contingent of immigrants landing in France or Iberia would never have been able to take over the whole of Western Europe in a few centuries. That is just not possible. Additionally the archaeological record doesn't show any new Bronze Age or steppe culture springing out of nowhere in France or Iberia, but clearly shows a slow progression from Ukraine and Romania along the Danube, then from Germany to all Western Europe. There is not the slightest doubt about that in my mind.
    Then how do you explain the utter disconnectedness of the Basque language? I agree that most of R1b arrived by the method you've mentioned, but here we are talking only about the Basque people. A large fleet of ships wouldn't be needed-- just 40 or so kayaks or canoes would be more than enough to get the job done. If Iberian was lightly populated at the time of their arrival, the founder population wouldn't have to be very large. Especially if they had a more efficient organizational/governing system than the existing tribe(s).
    Last edited by nordicfoyer; 13-02-13 at 13:10. Reason: added words

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    Quote Originally Posted by nordicfoyer View Post
    Then how do you explain the utter disconnectedness of the Basque language? I agree that most of R1b arrived by the method you've mentioned, but here we are talking only about the Basque people. A large fleet of ships wouldn't be needed-- just 40 or so kayaks or canoes would be more than enough to get the job done. If Iberian was lightly populated at the time of their arrival, the founder population wouldn't have to be very large. Especially if they had a more efficient organizational/governing system than the existing tribe(s).

    I think Iberia was the most populated place in Europe at the time of IE migrations into europe because de glaciations. And I think R1a was IE, R1b was Iberian mutation on R1a. So R1a cames to Iberia several time before the IE biggest migration waves.

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    Quote Originally Posted by Ziober View Post
    I think Iberia was the most populated place in Europe at the time of IE migrations into europe because de glaciations. And I think R1a was IE, R1b was Iberian mutation on R1a.
    I'm not following your thinking. R1b and R1a are parallel mutations under R1. Are you saying R1 is Iberian?

    Quote Originally Posted by Ziober View Post
    So R1a cames to Iberia several time before the IE biggest migration waves.
    What happened to the R1a in Iberia?

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    "So Basque never became R1b; Basque always was R1b, just everybody else became IE." Now, take in account Younger Dryas Event and refuges south. Take into account of Agazzis Glacial Lake last outburst c. 6,200 BCE raising sea levels significantly. The Atlantic climatic optimum c. 6,500 BCE needs considering while realizing it changes about 4,000 BCE during which time gardening has became significant in Iberian Peninsula. The Atlantic Maritime Culture ranged from c. 5,500 BCE into the middle Bronze Age. The sites range along the coast of Northern Spain and western French coast, around Ireland and the British Isles and into Scandinavia. I'm suggesting taking into account the weather periods and archaeological sites. I've seen several dates establishing the rise of R1b, several before Younger Dryas Catastrophe. And, archaeology knows about things that should really be considered. R1b just very well might taken refuge in the Iberian from the Last Glacial Maximum (LGM) and Younger Dryas while R1a took refuge through the Balkans/Anatolia. Those Asians you mentioned may well have taken refuge form the Steppes through Afghanistan across northern Indian's most "green lands" into Burma/Myanmar. I got a hunch Basque descend from Hunter-gatherers taking refuge in the Iberian Peninsula. After all, the "Ghost Theory" of a unknown population across Eurasia takes in account of the peopling of Native Americans having R1b and the X hablogroups rather it be during optimum climate before the Younger Dryas or after 9,600 BCE. I'm suggesting Basque may very well be considered indigenous LGM hunter-gatherer refugees later with a connection that Maritime Culture so many with little archaeological knowledge know about. Please excuse my "wordy" and digressive nature. Thank you kindly.

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    Quote Originally Posted by nordicfoyer View Post
    Then how do you explain the utter disconnectedness of the Basque language? I agree that most of R1b arrived by the method you've mentioned, but here we are talking only about the Basque people.
    Like I explained at the beginning of this thread. During the first invasion of Iberia by R1b, the male-only elite assimilated the local culture and language within a few generations, just like the Germanic tribes who invaded the Roman Empire. Celtic languages may only have taken hold during the Iron Age, when the La Tène culture "receltisied" northern and western Iberia.

    Quote Originally Posted by nordicfoyer View Post
    A large fleet of ships wouldn't be needed-- just 40 or so kayaks or canoes would be more than enough to get the job done. If Iberian was lightly populated at the time of their arrival, the founder population wouldn't have to be very large. Especially if they had a more efficient organizational/governing system than the existing tribe(s).
    How would have horses have travelled on canoes ? Btw, Neolithic Iberia was not that lightly populated. Mediterranean regions were always much more populated than northern Europe and especially the steppes.

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    Quote Originally Posted by Maciamo View Post
    Like I explained at the beginning of this thread. During the first invasion of Iberia by R1b, the male-only elite assimilated the local culture and language within a few generations, just like the Germanic tribes who invaded the Roman Empire. Celtic languages may only have taken hold during the Iron Age, when the La Tène culture "receltisied" northern and western Iberia.
    Not a great comparison from any angle... modern day Iberia is full of R1b, but where is the Germanic markers in the Roman Empire lands?

    Horses absolutely love canoes, as long as you train them from an earlier age. They can be trained to row using their teeth and hoofs. R1b were fantastic horse whisperers.

    Actually with my theory I have the Basque as the first group into Iberia from R1b lines, and they would have moved in without horses. Other branches of R1b would have brought horses later. This is the only way to account for the strangeness of the Basque language.
    Last edited by nordicfoyer; 14-02-13 at 21:25. Reason: improve sentence structure

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    Quote Originally Posted by Maciamo View Post
    I also think that the seafaring abilities of people 5000 years ago would have been sufficient for them to travel long distances across the Black Sea and Mediterranean. However the size of the ships would have been small and they could never have launched a massive migration or invasion by sea. Neolithic farmers certainly used ships to colonise the Mediterranean coast and islands, but I seriously doubt that the Indo-Europeans from the Pontic Steppe did, apart maybe for moving along the Black Sea coast. A small contingent of immigrants landing in France or Iberia would never have been able to take over the whole of Western Europe in a few centuries. That is just not possible. Additionally the archaeological record doesn't show any new Bronze Age or steppe culture springing out of nowhere in France or Iberia, but clearly shows a slow progression from Ukraine and Romania along the Danube, then from Germany to all Western Europe. There is not the slightest doubt about that in my mind.
    can we see ht35 hotspots as earlier spread i.e. spread before L51 subbranches like u106 ,L21, s116 u152 and DF27 developed?
    if that is the case then we can see hotspots of ht35 as original settlement points of R1b in Europe?



    sea route was from Asia minor to south Greece and Albania then to south Italy, and sea coasts of France and Iberia as well as in celtic Iberia in Spain
    land route was dwelling in Dacia before spreading via Danube route to west Europe

    Basques are not hotspot in this original spread. So it is either that Basques were separate wave e.g. DF27 or they were subjugated or infiltretated later in more peacful times which enabled them to keep the language




    If DF27 is original Basque marker, Basques could have originally been spread over all Spain (losing first Celtic Iberia to IE invaders) and France with their teritory shrinking in time due to IE speaking R1b arrivals same as we withness Basque language area shrinking in modern times. This would imply that some branches of R1b spoke non IE language. Etruscans also were non IE speakers and came from R1b rich area of Asia minor. So Asia minor must have had both non IE and IE speaking R1b branches. However DF27 not being present in Asia minor but being already there in south Greece and Sicily implies that the DF27 branch emerged after R1b moved from Asia minor to Europe. So it could be that indoeuropeastion of R1b happened in Asia minor, while DF27 escaped indoeuropisation while being settled in south Greece and Sicily. It would be interesting to investigate links between Basque language and Etruscan.

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    1 out of 1 members found this post helpful.
    Quote Originally Posted by howyesno View Post
    can we see ht35 hotspots as earlier spread i.e. spread before L51 subbranches like u106 ,L21, s116 u152 and DF27 developed?
    if that is the case then we can see hotspots of ht35 as original settlement points of R1b in Europe?

    [...]

    sea route was from Asia minor to south Greece and Albania then to south Italy, and sea coasts of France and Iberia as well as in celtic Iberia in Spain
    land route was dwelling in Dacia before spreading via Danube route to west Europe

    Basques are not hotspot in this original spread. So it is either that Basques were separate wave e.g. DF27 or they were subjugated or infiltretated later in more peacful times which enabled them to keep the language

    [...]

    If DF27 is original Basque marker, Basques could have originally been spread over all Spain (losing first Celtic Iberia to IE invaders) and France with their teritory shrinking in time due to IE speaking R1b arrivals same as we withness Basque language area shrinking in modern times. This would imply that some branches of R1b spoke non IE language. Etruscans also were non IE speakers and came from R1b rich area of Asia minor. So Asia minor must have had both non IE and IE speaking R1b branches. However DF27 not being present in Asia minor but being already there in south Greece and Sicily implies that the DF27 branch emerged after R1b moved from Asia minor to Europe. So it could be that indoeuropeastion of R1b happened in Asia minor, while DF27 escaped indoeuropisation while being settled in south Greece and Sicily. It would be interesting to investigate links between Basque language and Etruscan.
    DF27 arrived in Greece probably after 1204 AD with Catalans, search Duchy of Athens.

    Assuming that this map is correct, that haplogroup seems more likely to have originated in Iberia than anywhere else. I would like to test the hypothesis that it originated in N. Italy or Central Europe though. It seems theoretically possible to me.

    [Those who consider possible a maritime route for the expansion of certain R1b subclades, should consider movements that involve parts of N. Africa]

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