E1b1b1a1b (V-13): Balkan or Middle Eastern?

Maleth said:
According to main stream believe all homosapiens sapiens were negroid. Diet and climate and the mixing with other homosapiens could have changed the Physiognomy. Not sure maybe new theories would come out, but I think thats what we are led to believe so far.
Click to expand...
With negroid I don't mean black. I mean subsaharan type of people. Negroid is an evolved spices,is not the original man who walked on earth. E v-13 is a relatively young haplogroup so its hard to believe that it was black and then whitened. Mediterranean latitude of E-v13 is the same like South Afrika latitude (33 degrees) and blacks of South Afrika have a long way to go to whiten so the theory of geography and skin is doubtful. white skin is work of evolution. Even if the first man in Afrika was black it might not have been Negroid. So it makes absolutely no sense to declare that first e-v13 was negroid and then became Caucasoid.
 
albanopolis said:
With negroid I don't mean black. I mean subsaharan type of people. Negroid is an evolved spices,is not the original man who walked on earth. E v-13 is a relatively young haplogroup so its hard to believe that it was black and then whitened. Mediterranean latitude of E-v13 is the same like South Afrika latitude (33 degrees) and blacks of South Afrika have a long way to go to whiten so the theory of geography and skin is doubtful. white skin is work of evolution. Even if the first man in Afrika was black it might not have been Negroid. So it makes absolutely no sense to declare that first e-v13 was negroid and then became Caucasoid.
Click to expand...

I agree with you, what I am referring to that ALL modern haplogroups started off as SubSaharan/Black/Negroid (not much difference in terminology) and just mutated to what they are today. Some have been out longer then others. Its a long trail of sequences and the origins are more or less the same and just evolved by time. Its my believe too that when E-V13 mutated it the clan that bore this new mutation would have lost its adam look (so to speak).

I think Australians Aborigines were amongst the first to make the trip out of Africa and they retain much of the features. So the longer being out of Africa does not mean looking more different. It all depends on who you interbreed with and climatic conditions food and so on - like you said evolution, changing depending on the circumstances.

World English Dictionary

Negroid (ˈniːɡrɔɪd)
— adj
1. denoting, relating to, or belonging to a darker-compexioned supposed racial group of mankind. This group includes the indigenous peoples of Africa south of the Sahara, their descendants elsewhere, and some Melanesian peoples
— n
2. a member of this racial group
usage The word Negroid and other words ending in -oid relating to racial groups, such as Mongoloid , are controversial scientifically and best avoided. If you need to refer to ethnicity, it is preferable to use the specific name of the people or peoples concerned
 
Maleth said:
I agree with you, what I am referring to that ALL modern haplogroups started off as SubSaharan/Black/Negroid (not much difference in terminology) and just mutated to what they are today. Some have been out longer then others. Its a long trail of sequences and the origins are more or less the same and just evolved by time. Its my believe too that when E-V13 mutated it the clan that bore this new mutation would have lost its adam look (so to speak).

I think Australians Aborigines were amongst the first to make the trip out of Africa and they retain much of the features. So the longer being out of Africa does not mean looking more different. It all depends on who you interbreed with and climatic conditions food and so on - like you said evolution, changing depending on the circumstances.

World English Dictionary

Negroid (ˈniːɡrɔɪd)
— adj
1. denoting, relating to, or belonging to a darker-compexioned supposed racial group of mankind. This group includes the indigenous peoples of Africa south of the Sahara, their descendants elsewhere, and some Melanesian peoples
— n
2. a member of this racial group
usage The word Negroid and other words ending in -oid relating to racial groups, such as Mongoloid , are controversial scientifically and best avoided. If you need to refer to ethnicity, it is preferable to use the specific name of the people or peoples concerned
Click to expand...


I agree in part
but I prefer keep the differenciation between the terms 'negroid' and 'black' - the last concerns only the skin colour
the first refers to a kit of special features underwent by the Subsaharian populations, at different levels of depth, and which make them different from the earlier men we are descendants of, as other modifications occurred among the easy-called 'europoids' or 'mongoloids' without speak of the 'australoid' people that keep on as you said a lot of "primitive" traits -
first men absolutely "black": I don't know...
as you said the date of separation of population is not always a proof of more modifications - but here we have matter to discuss and I go out of the topic
 
In another thread here, the sample of the Thracian commoner from Bronze-Age Bulgaria was around 5% North-African, no sub-saharan admixture. Today there is nothing left of that 5%, because of so much mixing since 2000 BC. If you want to see someone with 5% North-African admixture, look at the Spanish, lol.
 
kamani said:
If you want to see someone with 5% North-African admixture, look at the Spanish, lol.
Click to expand...

5% or whatever the real percentage of direct NA admixture in modern Spanish society is only a tiny ingredient in the minestrone of genetics and would hardly determine a particular look on a general basis :)
 
E1b1b is 42,000 years ago and it was already in southeast Balkans, then also E-V13 who is 10,000 BC.

It is argued in Eupedia that E1b1b (42,000 years BC) came to south east Europe straight from very north west Africa and not all way around through Anatolia and that they didn't came from Egypt. So that would mean that E-V13 didn't came from anywhere they were already in south east Europe since 42,000 years BC.
 
zanipolo said:
Everybody was black when the first Hgs left Africa, people changed to lighter coloured skin over time depending on where they lived. The skin colour changes pigmentation to take in vitamin D.
Click to expand...

This not might be true, i have read on some religious documents that first humanoid ADAM was neither black or white, rather created from the earths ground and water from all around the earth, so all the mixed type of grounds like red, brown, black, white etc. Therefore ADAM was either mixed with most types of colors. it is also scientifically proven that the firts humanoid came from Central Afrika...
 
Eldritch said:
Haplogroup E-V13 isn't Albanian nor it belongs exclusively to them, actually highest diversity of E-V13 is in today Bosnia according to Steven Bird.
And your reasoning is that of a kid.
Click to expand...

E-V13 is at the lowest rate in today Bosnia, today Bosnia has I2a of 56% and 10% E-V13 please se below...

Region/Haplogroup
I1
I2*/I2a
I2b
R1a
R1b
G
J2
J*/J1
E-V13
Albania
2
12
1.5
9
16
1.5
19.5
2
27.5
Kosovo Albanians
5.5
2.5
0
4.5
21
0
16.5
0
47.5
Albanians (Macedonia)
1
9
1.5
18.8
1.6
21.9
39.1
Greece (Peloponnese)
47
Greece (South)
3
20
2.2
19.6
5.5
43.5
Greece (North)
2
12
19
14.6
5.2
35.4
Greece (Crete)
13
8.8
17
39
8.8
Greece (Thrace)
19
22
12
19
19
Greece (ethnic Greeks)
19
16
11.7
9
17
19
Macedonia (ethnic Slavic)
1
33
1.5
5.1
15.2
1.5
24.1
Bulgaria
4
20
2
17
11
5
11
3
23.5
Bosniaks
4
56
0
16
3
2
3.5
0.5
10
Bosnian Croats
0
71
2
12
2
1
1
0
9
Bosnian Serbs
2.5
31
2.5
13.5
6
1
8.5
0
22.5
Croatia
5.5
37
1
24
8.5
2
6
1
10
Serbia
8.5
33
0.5
16
8
2
8
0.5
18
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Y-DNA_haplogroups_by_ethnic_group
 
Eldritch said:
Haplogroup E-V13 isn't Albanian nor it belongs exclusively to them, actually highest diversity of E-V13 is in today Bosnia according to Steven Bird.
And your reasoning is that of a kid.
Click to expand...

E-V13 is at the lowest rate in today Bosnia, today Bosnia has I2a of 56% and 10% E-V13 please se below...

Region/HaplogroupI1I2*/I2aI2bR1aR1bGJ2J*/J1E-V13
Albania2121.59161.519.5227.5
Kosovo Albanians5.52.504.521016.5047.5
Albanians (Macedonia)191.518.81.621.939.1
Greece (Peloponnese)47
Greece (South)3202.219.65.543.5
Greece (North)2121914.65.235.4
Greece (Crete)138.817398.8
Greece (Thrace)1922121919
Greece (ethnic Greeks)191611.791719
Macedonia (ethnic Slavic)1331.55.115.21.524.1
Bulgaria42021711511323.5
Bosniaks456016323.50.510
Bosnian Croats07121221109
Bosnian Serbs2.5312.513.5618.5022.5
Croatia5.5371248.526110
Serbia8.5330.5168280.518
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Y-DNA_haplogroups_by_ethnic_group
 
kamani said:
I have this idea that someone in Albania or more North in the Balkans, whose lineage is heavy in E1b1b, is probably blondish looking. This is because it mixed so early in time with the paleolithic European females; plus evolution had some time to work on adaptation to climate. Taking Kosovars for example, until I saw the studies I would have never guessed 45% E1b1b. I've met quite a few of them in real life and more than half are tall, green eyes with yellow-brown hair.
Click to expand...

Very true, according to the studies Kosovar Albanians have the highest in the region 47.5% E-V13... please see some additional info below..
no one knows what colour E-V13 has since it is 10,000 years in Europe (pretty long time ago) and E is 54,000 years ago, we would never know what colour was at that time.
The very first human created is ADAM and based on facts nowadays he came from Central Africa and according to religious documents he was neither black or white, rather created from the earths ground and water from all around the earth, so all the mixed type of ground like red, brown, black, white etc.

If we carefully look at the map and the highest percentages of E-V13, We can see that on the most areas where current ethnic Albanians live E-V13 has its highest percentages, Kosovo 47.5%, Albanians from Macedonia 39.1%, south Greece 43.5% (were ethnic Albanians called Arvanitas or Arberesh live), north Greece 35.4%, Arvanitas and Peloponnese area 47%% (it is known that Arvanitas lived in Peloponnese area too), and Albania with 27.5%. While the rest of the Greece (were traditionally is known that no Albanians live there) as of those from Crete have only 8.8%, Thrace 19%, and the rest of Greece overall, ethnic Greeks of today have only 19%, it also shows that they are much more Slavicized than Albanians with R1a 16% and I2a of 19%. In addition, based on a map shown with a percentage of E-V13, south Serbia (were ethnic Albanians live) has higher percentage of E-V13, and south east and north east part of Montenegro (were ethnic Albanians live) have also higher percentage.

1: Arvanitas based on Southwest Greece (Arberesh, who spoke a dialect of the Albanian language). It is also argued that Arvanitas were also on Peloponnese area of Greece.
2: Epirus (Where Gjergj Kastrioti Skanderbeg declared that he is a descendant of Epirus king of Pyrrhus),
3: Dardania (current Kosovo)
4: Current Albania
5: West (current) Macedonia.
6: the Very South of current Serbia
7: South East and north East part of current Montenegro

R1b (kelts, 22,000 years) J2 (middle-east 15,000 years) I1 (Vikings Scandinavians 20,000 years) R1a (Slavs - Russia, Poland 23,000 years) I2a1 (Sardinia, Dalmatia 8,000 years). E (54,000 years), E1b1b (42,000 years BC). E-V13 (10,000 years BC)

Region/Haplogroup
I1
I2*/I2a
I2b
R1a
R1b
G
J2
J*/J1
E-V13
Albania
2
12
1.5
9
16
1.5
19.5
2
27.5
Kosovo Albanians
5.5
2.5
0
4.5
21
0
16.5
0
47.5
Albanians (Macedonia)
1
9
1.5
18.8
1.6
21.9
39.1
Greece (Peloponnese)
47
Greece (South)
3
20
2.2
19.6
5.5
43.5
Greece (North)
2
12
19
14.6
5.2
35.4
Greece (Crete)
13
8.8
17
39
8.8
Greece (Thrace)
19
22
12
19
19
Greece (ethnic Greeks)
19
16
11.7
9
17
19
Macedonia (ethnic Slavic)
1
33
1.5
5.1
15.2
1.5
24.1
Bulgaria
4
20
2
17
11
5
11
3
23.5
Bosniaks
4
56
0
16
3
2
3.5
0.5
10
Bosnian Croats
0
71
2
12
2
1
1
0
9
Bosnian Serbs
2.5
31
2.5
13.5
6
1
8.5
0
22.5
Croatia
5.5
37
1
24
8.5
2
6
1
10
Serbia
8.5
33
0.5
16
8
2
8
0.5
18

In contrast, another major discovery relevant to the study of E-V13 origins was the announcement in Lacan et al. (2011) that a 7000 year old skeleton in a Neolithic context in a Spanish funeral cave, was an E-V13 man. (The other specimens tested from the same site were in haplogroup G2a, which has been found in Neolithic contexts throughout Europe.) Using 7 STR markers, this specimen was identified as being similar to modern individuals tested in Albania, Bosnia, Greece, Corsica, and Provence. The authors therefore proposed that, whether or not the modern distribution of E-V13 of today is a result of more recent events, E-V13 was already in Europe within the Neolithic, carried by early farmers from the Eastern Mediterranean to the Western Mediterranean, much earlier than the Bronze age.

Haplogroup E-V13 is the only lineage that reaches the highest frequencies out of Africa. In fact, it represents about 85% of the European E-M78 chromosomes with a clinal pattern of frequency distribution from the southern Balkan peninsula (19.6%) to western Europe (2.5%). The same haplogroup is also present at lower frequencies in Anatolia (3.8%), the Near East (2.0%), and the Caucasus (1.8%). In Africa, haplogroup E-V13 is rare, being observed only in northern Africa at a low frequency (0.9%).
—Cruciani et al. (2007)

References:
http://www.jogg.info/32/bird.htm
http://www.eupedia.com/europe/european_y-dna_haplogroups.shtml
http://www.eupedia.com/europe/Haplogroup_E1b1b_Y-DNA.shtml
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Y-DNA_haplogroups_by_ethnic_group
 
Garrick said:
It is easiest to say so.

However I speak based on facts.

In the Balkans were found skeletons dating about over 4000 years BC, and they have negroid characteristics, if you want I can put as theme.

And to be to clear, only for research purposes and facts.

I do not have a pre- Yes or No, and I'm not against these such findings.
Click to expand...


1: please show the source about the skeleton?
2: if true what DNA had the so called negroid skeleton?

please see the sources below...

In contrast, another major discovery relevant to the study of E-V13 origins was the announcement in Lacan et al. (2011) that a 7000 year old skeleton in a Neolithic context in a Spanish funeral cave, was an E-V13 man. (The other specimens tested from the same site were in haplogroup G2a, which has been found in Neolithic contexts throughout Europe.) Using 7 STR markers, this specimen was identified as being similar to modern individuals tested in Albania, Bosnia, Greece, Corsica, and Provence. The authors therefore proposed that, whether or not the modern distribution of E-V13 of today is a result of more recent events, E-V13 was already in Europe within the Neolithic, carried by early farmers from the Eastern Mediterranean to the Western Mediterranean, much earlier than the Bronze age.

Haplogroup E-V13 is the only lineage that reaches the highest frequencies out of Africa. In fact, it represents about 85% of the European E-M78 chromosomes with a clinal pattern of frequency distribution from the southern Balkan peninsula (19.6%) to western Europe (2.5%). The same haplogroup is also present at lower frequencies in Anatolia (3.8%), the Near East (2.0%), and the Caucasus (1.8%). In Africa, haplogroup E-V13 is rare, being observed only in northern Africa at a low frequency (0.9%).
—Cruciani et al. (2007)

E-V13 is (10,000 years) and you can see from the map that it was not based either in Egypt nor Africa
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Haplogroup_E-V68

If you see the map of E1b then we are definitely on the other page, this is E1b1b (42,000 years) and E (54,000 years), no one knows about what color were at that time.
The very first human created is and a descanted of all humans ADAM and based on facts nowadays he came from Central Africa and according to religious documents he was neither black or white, rather created from the earths ground and water from all around the earth, so all the mixed type of ground like red, brown, black, white etc. So it is argued its skin color was mixture of all main colors.
http://www.eupedia.com/europe/Haplogroup_E1b1b_Y-DNA.shtml
 
Garrick said:
It is easiest to say so.

However I speak based on facts.

In the Balkans were found skeletons dating about over 4000 years BC, and they have negroid characteristics, if you want I can put as theme.

And to be to clear, only for research purposes and facts.

I do not have a pre- Yes or No, and I'm not against these such findings.
Click to expand...


1: please show the source about the skeleton?
2: if true what DNA had the so called negroid skeleton?

please see the sources below...

In contrast, another major discovery relevant to the study of E-V13 origins was the announcement in Lacan et al. (2011) that a 7000 year old skeleton in a Neolithic context in a Spanish funeral cave, was an E-V13 man. (The other specimens tested from the same site were in haplogroup G2a, which has been found in Neolithic contexts throughout Europe.) Using 7 STR markers, this specimen was identified as being similar to modern individuals tested in Albania, Bosnia, Greece, Corsica, and Provence. The authors therefore proposed that, whether or not the modern distribution of E-V13 of today is a result of more recent events, E-V13 was already in Europe within the Neolithic, carried by early farmers from the Eastern Mediterranean to the Western Mediterranean, much earlier than the Bronze age.

Haplogroup E-V13 is the only lineage that reaches the highest frequencies out of Africa. In fact, it represents about 85% of the European E-M78 chromosomes with a clinal pattern of frequency distribution from the southern Balkan peninsula (19.6%) to western Europe (2.5%). The same haplogroup is also present at lower frequencies in Anatolia (3.8%), the Near East (2.0%), and the Caucasus (1.8%). In Africa, haplogroup E-V13 is rare, being observed only in northern Africa at a low frequency (0.9%).
—Cruciani et al. (2007)

E-V13 is (10,000 years) and you can see from the map that it was not based either in Egypt nor Africa
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Haplogroup_E-V68

If you see the map of E1b then we are definitely on the other page, this is E1b1b (42,000 years) and E (54,000 years), no one knows about what color were at that time.
The very first human created is and a descanted of all humans ADAM and based on facts nowadays he came from Central Africa and according to religious documents he was neither black or white, rather created from the earths ground and water from all around the earth, so all the mixed type of ground like red, brown, black, white etc. So it is argued its skin color was mixture of all main colors.
http://www.eupedia.com/europe/Haplogroup_E1b1b_Y-DNA.shtml
 
noUseForAname said:
1: please show the source about the skeleton?
2: if true what DNA had the so called negroid skeleton?

please see the sources below...

In contrast, another major discovery relevant to the study of E-V13 origins was the announcement in Lacan et al. (2011) that a 7000 year old skeleton in a Neolithic context in a Spanish funeral cave, was an E-V13 man. (The other specimens tested from the same site were in haplogroup G2a, which has been found in Neolithic contexts throughout Europe.) Using 7 STR markers, this specimen was identified as being similar to modern individuals tested in Albania, Bosnia, Greece, Corsica, and Provence. The authors therefore proposed that, whether or not the modern distribution of E-V13 of today is a result of more recent events, E-V13 was already in Europe within the Neolithic, carried by early farmers from the Eastern Mediterranean to the Western Mediterranean, much earlier than the Bronze age.

Haplogroup E-V13 is the only lineage that reaches the highest frequencies out of Africa. In fact, it represents about 85% of the European E-M78 chromosomes with a clinal pattern of frequency distribution from the southern Balkan peninsula (19.6%) to western Europe (2.5%). The same haplogroup is also present at lower frequencies in Anatolia (3.8%), the Near East (2.0%), and the Caucasus (1.8%). In Africa, haplogroup E-V13 is rare, being observed only in northern Africa at a low frequency (0.9%).
—Cruciani et al. (2007)

E-V13 is (10,000 years) and you can see from the map that it was not based either in Egypt nor Africa
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Haplogroup_E-V68

If you see the map of E1b then we are definitely on the other page, this is E1b1b (42,000 years) and E (54,000 years), no one knows about what color were at that time.
The very first human created is and a descanted of all humans ADAM and based on facts nowadays he came from Central Africa and according to religious documents he was neither black or white, rather created from the earths ground and water from all around the earth, so all the mixed type of ground like red, brown, black, white etc. So it is argued its skin color was mixture of all main colors.
http://www.eupedia.com/europe/Haplogroup_E1b1b_Y-DNA.shtml
Click to expand...


I doupt that the iberian E is common with balcanic and italian E
balcanic and italian E is from Levant/Cyprus, the oldest found in konya 4000 ky,

there is an analysis from dienekes,

http://dienekes.blogspot.gr/2008/07/expansion-of-e-v13-explained.html
http://dienekes.blogspot.gr/2009/05/y-chromosome-haplogroup-e-m78-subtyping.html
 
Yetos said:
I doupt that the iberian E is common with balcanic and italian E
balcanic and italian E is from Levant/Cyprus, the oldest found in konya 4000 ky,

there is an analysis from dienekes,

http://dienekes.blogspot.gr/2008/07/expansion-of-e-v13-explained.html
http://dienekes.blogspot.gr/2009/05/y-chromosome-haplogroup-e-m78-subtyping.html
Click to expand...

If you mean "you doubt" than its just your opinion...I dont do opinions here but rather try to only present scientific facts...

i addition i dont understand "balcanic and italian E is from Levant/Cyprus" Do you maybe mean E haplogroup is from Cyprys?

I have have already commented on that blog with some scientific facts....
 
Ike said:
Are we sure there are no E-V13 subgroups? That info would help a lot.
Click to expand...
The Ave07 haplotype was also compared with current Eb1b1a2 haplotypes previously published (10–14). It appeared identical at the seven markers tested to five Albanian, two Bosnian, one Greek, one Italian, one Sicilian, two Corsican, and two Provence French samples and are thus placed on the same node of the E1b1b1a1b-V13 network as eastern, central, and western Mediterranean haplotypes (Fig. S1).
Click to expand...

http://dienekes.blogspot.com/2011/11/y-haplogroups-e-v13-and-g2a-in.html
 
Eldritch said:
The Iberian one is E-V13, like the one found in Greece.
Click to expand...

there are scientific inconsistencies to support that claim, have a look of Maciamo (the creator of Eupedia) noted...

quote_icon.png
Originally Posted by Cobol19
I think E1b1b was probably hanging out in West Asia for a while until the movement happened to Europe, and among them there was likely J2 men as well.



"MAciamo"
That was what I thought before too. But that does not explain why E1b1b has a higher frequency than J2 in Western Iberia or the Southern Balkans. J2 is far more common than E1b1b in West Asia (ratio of almost 3:1). It also fails to explain why there is so little E-V13 in West Asia and the Levant. Furthermore, if Neolithic farmers and herders were only G2a, then how did E1b1b reach Iberia at all from the Middle East ?

Finally, the Dodecad admixture found a common Mediterranean element for South Europeans, North Africans and Middle Easterners alike. It is almost undeniable that this Mediterranean element comprises most or all E1b1b in Europe, and some E1b1b in North Africa (the E-M78, I would think). The best correlation is E-M78 + T + I(xI1/I2b). If European E1b1b came through Southwest Asia (Levant) and West Asia (Anatolia, Caucasus) and mixed with J2 or other haplogroups there before reaching Europe, we would expect much more West Asian and Southwest Asian admixture in Europeans. Instead, there is more Mediterranean admixture.
 
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