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Thread: Haplogroup I in Finland

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    Haplogroup I in Finland

    I In Finland Reaches An Average Frequency Of 28 Percent, My Question Is, Was I In Finland Mostly A Result Of Recent Migrations From The Rest Of Scandinavia Or Does I In Finland Mostly Come From The Repopulation Of Northern Europe After The LGM, Meaning That It Has Been In Finland For Over 11000 YBP, Or Is It A Mix Of Both. Evidence For The Latter Is That I Has About A 40 Percent Frequency In Saami Which Is A Much Higher Average Than In Finns, And The Saami Are Thought To Descend From Post Glacial Migrants, Evidence A Recent Introduction Possibly From Sweden Is That I In Finland Is At Its Highest Frequencies As You Get Closer To Sweden And Its Highest At The Coast Of The Gulf Of Bothnia. Please Give Me Your Thoughts.

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    Regarding your question, it may make sense to specify hg I1 in Finland rather than all I in Finland because the other I's are located in more southernly pockets (Croatia and Sardinia). Is this what you had in mind?

    But the short answer to your question is it depends on who you ask. The super brains of the field have I1 origins in Denmark or Pomeria based on subclade data.

    I'm a bit of a non-conformist though and am big on maps... and the maps sure look like I1 has an epicenter in either Western Finland or Eastern Sweden (or even the islands in between the two). I also factor in legends, myths, and religious teachings. When the ancient kings of Norway, Sweden, and Denmark refered back to their homelands--they meant Finland.

    In one sense it doesn't matter too terribly much because it's really more useful to think of hg I1 as Baltic dwellers rather than land settlers. They took to the Sea like ducks to water (especially the Baltic). I have older I1 tribes making a seasonal circuit through large chunks of the Baltic for inner-tribal trade to help prepare for brutal winters. I also have early I1 going deep up into Continental rivers looking for speciality items such as Fir resin to repair boat leaks, etc. etc.

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    1 members found this post helpful.
    Finland as 30% haplogroup I1a , the Scandinavian variety. It arrived on th west coast of Finland via nearby Sweden.

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    Apparently it looks like some of the I1 in Sweden (particularly in east Sweden) is of Finnic origin and most of the I1 in Finland is not from Sweden. Apparently there appears to have been several times as much movement from Finland to eastern Sweden than the other way round throughout history and prehistory, this correlates with the levels of N1c in eastern Sweden and also people working on I1 have apparently changed their minds based on the evidence and Bothnian clade is now older, making I1 a movement from east to west:

    http://www.forumbiodiversity.com/sho...now-3000-years
    'Wise men speak only of what they know' - J.R.R. Tolkien

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    1 members found this post helpful.
    The levels of N1c in Sweden are low. There was barely any genetic influx from Finland towards Sweden. The I in Sweden came from continental Europe through northern Germany/Denmark to southern Scandinavia from where it subsequently spread, I'm sure you will find many people willing to contest your theory

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    It's not my theory, i'm just adding some more information to the discussion. It's the opinion of people who know more about it than you or i, though.

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    True lolll but anyways

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    Quote Originally Posted by Jackson View Post
    Apparently it looks like some of the I1 in Sweden (particularly in east Sweden) is of Finnic origin and most of the I1 in Finland is not from Sweden.
    They are distorting Nordtvedt's conclusion (of course full of personal nationalistic creep agenda). Nordtvedt just posted some of the I1 clades in Finland pre date for more than 3000 years ago. And nothing more.
    http://knordtvedt.home.bresnan.net/T...I1d%20L22+.pdf

    What is truth. However, its origin is still ultimate Scandinavian, like it or not. Obviously, these (Bothnian) mutations that then happened there were, of course, Finnish. No doubt of that.

    Possibly according professor Nordtvedt's last conclusion, some of I1 in Finland went there via Scandinavia during the pre-Bronze age. Movement of people, including Scandinavia, the Isle of Gotland and Finland has always existed for more than 4000 years ago. It is already well known among the Swedish, Danish and Finnish archaeologists.

    Finnish professor T. Lappalainen also said it in 2009:
    Migration Waves to the Baltic Sea Region
    T. Lappalainen et al.
    https://www.doria.fi/bitstream/handl...4/humangen.pdf


    Quote Originally Posted by Jackson View Post
    Apparently there appears to have been several times as much movement from Finland to eastern Sweden than the other way round throughout history and prehistory, this correlates with the levels of N1c in eastern Sweden and also people working on I1 have apparently changed their minds based on the evidence and Bothnian clade is now older, making I1 a movement from east to west:

    http://www.forumbiodiversity.com/sho...now-3000-years
    The movement of people in the past, (pre-historic times, Bronze-Age, and Iron-Age (Viking era)), was more from Scandinavia to Finland. In recent times like from the 17th century (Finnish forest immigrants in Sweden) and the industrialization of Sweden in 20th century, it was greater from Finland to Sweden.

    I1 in Finland is close to 28-30%. (depending on the source.)

    N1C in Sweden is close to 10%-12%. (depending on the source.)
    http://dna.scangen.se/index.php?show...database=other

    And the presence of some N1C clades in Sweden date over 3000 years ago. Through some pre-historic migrations via the 'Baltic countries' to the Isle of Gotland or via Saami in Northern areas. They are not necessarily all of resettlements by Finns.
    http://www.readcube.com/articles/10....j.ejhg.5201651

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    Quote Originally Posted by Jackson View Post
    It's not my theory, i'm just adding some more information to the discussion. It's the opinion of people who know more about it than you or i, though.
    'Random' internet Finnish nationalists?!!

    They distorted professor Nordtvedt's conclusion. Nordtvedt in no paper or calculation claimed that the I1 originated in Finland (just that the presence of some I1 clades there date to 3000 years). The I1 (Bothnian) mutations are another different story though.

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    But of course. Yes, the swedes/Norwegian Nordics left bigger genetic impact on Finland than Finland did to the rest of Nordics , most of the I in Finland if not virtually the totality of 28-30% is I1. If Sweden has 10% N1c note that Norway has between 2-3%, negligible levels. If Finland had indeed, as falsely stated in this study, genetically impacted the Scandinavian Nordic states, this would be visible in the genetics, which it simply isnt. They impacted Sweden, in a very minor way. The swedes on the other hand impacted Finns about 300% more.

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    Apparently N1c is relatively high in eastern Sweden, and there is some I1 Bothnian, but almost all the I1 in Finland is Bothnian, so it doesn't seem to have been a major movement from Sweden to Finland apparently. Just read through the thread i linked, they can explain it better than i can.

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    This is why the on-going research into y-haplogroups in Denmark is so important. We're waiting to see what these scientists find. Nothing is as accurate linking haplogroup membership with ancient physical remains which can firmly locate the time/place orientation with carbon dating and burial artifacts.

    Personally I'm hoping for a Denmark tie, but I'll be O.K. with a Finnish or Russian start too. Whatever the findings, hg. I1 hit it's stride while in Scandinavia.

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    1 members found this post helpful.
    Quote Originally Posted by Jackson View Post
    Apparently N1c is relatively high in eastern Sweden, and there is some I1 Bothnian,
    Apparently you're not familiar with Sweden and their ethno cultural regions. Overall Sweden has 10-12% of N1c (in some studies it reaches 15%).

    From Swedish genealogist Anders Berg project below, it was almost 10%. Here: (http://dna.scangen.se).

    Sweden as a whole, is 49,6% I1, 9,7% N1c
    http://dna.scangen.se/index.php?show...database=other

    (Ethno-cultural regions):
    Svealand 33,3% I1, 17% N1c
    http://dna.scangen.se/index.php?show...database=other

    Götaland 58,5% I1, absent N1c (I'm surpresed here!)
    http://dna.scangen.se/index.php?show...database=other

    Norrland 48,3% I1, 24,1% N1c
    http://dna.scangen.se/index.php?show...database=other


    --------
    At Karlsson study it was close to 12%- 13% of N1c.
    http://www.readcube.com/articles/10....j.ejhg.5201651


    Quote Originally Posted by Jackson View Post
    but almost all the I1 in Finland is Bothnian, so it doesn't seem to have been a major movement from Sweden to Finland apparently.
    Listen, all I1 (Bothnian) mutation is Finnish. But all I1 present in Finland (in any case, they hate this) has roots in Scandinavia. They did not arrive there from Mars. Alright?!

    Quote Originally Posted by Jackson View Post
    Just read through the thread i linked, they can explain it better than i can.
    Nordtvedt has never said that the I1 originated in Finland, simply that it (some I1 clades) exists there to 3000 years ago. That it is.

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    To clarify on my initial question, was I1 in Finland before N1c. I know N entered circa 6 to 8 thousand years ago, but before this entry was Finland or the region we know today as Finland predominantly I1? And if so do modern Finns pocess these early I1 lineages?

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    Quote Originally Posted by nordicwarbler View Post
    This is why the on-going research into y-haplogroups in Denmark is so important. We're waiting to see what these scientists find. Nothing is as accurate linking haplogroup membership with ancient physical remains which can firmly locate the time/place orientation with carbon dating and burial artifacts.

    Personally I'm hoping for a Denmark tie, but I'll be O.K. with a Finnish or Russian start too. Whatever the findings, hg. I1 hit it's stride while in Scandinavia.
    If it was Finnish, the I-M253 article at the wikipedia would've been changed by the staff of FTDNA project to several days ago. They are always updating the article there and monitoring it against spammers. The origin of I to I1 is still from Denmark. I1 origin in Finland would not make sense at all given the route that the haplogroup I got to the north.

    http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Haplogroup_I-M253
    http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Haplogroup_I_(Y-DNA)

    Family Tree DNA - yDNA Haplogroup I: Subclade I1
    http://www.familytreedna.com/public/yDNA_I1

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    1 members found this post helpful.
    I agree wholeheartedly with balder. Regardless if theirs I1 subclades in Finland dating to 3,000 years ago it originally arrived there from Scandinavia via continental Denmark/Germany as is so frequently documented. Yes nordicwarbler, haplogroup I1 hit its stride in Scandinavia but it didn't arrive there from Baltic states, Russia or Finland. It arrived from the south via Germany to Denmark then Scandinavia.

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    Quote Originally Posted by adamo View Post
    I agree wholeheartedly with balder. Regardless if theirs I1 subclades in Finland dating to 3,000 years ago it originally arrived there from Scandinavia via continental Denmark/Germany as is so frequently documented. Yes nordicwarbler, haplogroup I1 hit its stride in Scandinavia but it didn't arrive there from Baltic states, Russia or Finland. It arrived from the south via Germany to Denmark then Scandinavia.
    It's classic from keyboard Finnish 'nationalists' deny or decrease to low levels any Swedish influences there. I would not deny the influence they had on my. Nor I would increase this to all astronomical levels as well (provided the historical context weighs over to our side).

    All I1 Bothnian (mutation)
    in Sweden has roots in Finland. On other hand, all I1 present in Finland had roots in Scandinavia, Denmark, (or via Sweden or Gotland) in anyways.

    http://www.goggo.com/terry/HaplogroupI1/y-Haplogroup_I1_Migration_Routes.jpg

    http://www.goggo.com/terry/HaplogroupI1/


    I1 Dispersal/Expansion Map
    :

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    Exactly, bothnian I in Sweden came from finland but long before all , I came from Scandinavia to Finland anyways.

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    Y-haplogroup I1 is Finnugric!

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    Quote Originally Posted by Balder View Post
    It's classic from keyboard Finnish 'nationalists' deny or decrease to low levels any Swedish influences there. ...
    I'm confused... are you saying I'm a Finnish nationalist? I can assure you I'm not.

    There are earlier threads where this subject is addressed in depth. The chink in the armor of the I1 Jutland/Northern Germany origin is that no ancient I1 remains have been found there (prior to about 300 A.D. or so). This could be because of how these tribes treated their deceased or because of the ocean level changes in these areas (which was extreme and would impact boat loving I1 more than other groups).

    The Denmark y-DNA studies should answer these questions, hopefully.

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    1 members found this post helpful.
    My last comment sounded awkward regarding the sea level changes... of course those didn't occur in 300 A.D.

    Please read the previous debates on this topic to get up to speed. And relax about you I1 status... we kick butt no matter what spot on the globe we live on.

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    Quote Originally Posted by nordicwarbler View Post
    I'm confused... are you saying I'm a Finnish nationalist? I can assure you I'm not.
    I wasn't referring to you.


    Quote Originally Posted by nordicwarbler View Post
    There are earlier threads where this subject is addressed in depth. The chink in the armor of the I1 Jutland/Northern Germany origin is that no ancient I1 remains have been found there (prior to about 300 A.D. or so). This could be because of how these tribes treated their deceased or because of the ocean level changes in these areas (which was extreme and would impact boat loving I1 more than other groups).

    The Denmark y-DNA studies should answer these questions, hopefully.
    Agreed. It's always good to have a certain criticism (and also some ceticism) to any theory. However, I doubt very seriously whether the haplotype I1's origin being in Finland. Sounds a bit far fetched and delusional to be true. Considering all the origin and route that the I has made to reach to the North.

    Here an interesting argument:
    Despite its young TMRCA, this clade could have its origin in a Mesolithic migration of Haplogroup I* from South-Eastern Europe about 5,000 BC. This is by no means certain. Although we have found no-one alive today carrying just one or two of the many markers that define I1, each one of these markers may define a lineage that has died out in the male line.

    So all that is left is the healthy lineage I1, which appears to pop up out of nowhere in southern Jutland about 2,200 BC and is found today in Scandinavia and among descendants of the Vikings.

    There is no trail of earlier clades from South-Eastern Europe. So in theory Haplogroup I could have arrived from any southern Ice Age refuge as soon as Scandinavia was left habitable by the shrinking glaciers.

    It is only the fact that the spread of Haplogroup I overall leans towards Eastern Europe that has inclined researchers to look south-east for its Ice Age refuge. An alternative explanation proferred by some geneticists is that I1 is the male companion to mtDNA U5b1b1a, which seems to have travelled in the Mesolithic from Iberia to Scandinavia.
    http://www.buildinghistory.org/dista...logroupi.shtml

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    Quote Originally Posted by gyms View Post
    Y-haplogroup I1 is Finnugric!
    It pre date any 'modern' ethno linguistic origins. Though, it is found in all places invaded by the ancient Germanic peoples.



    Professor Nordtvedt last 2013 chart on spread of I and I1:


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    1 members found this post helpful.
    I know that mtdna h and v migrated from Iberia to Scandinavia but heavily doubt U5 did, maybe though I'm not a geneticist so I can't say yes or no.maybe what the study cited says is true, maybe I1 was long ago during gravettian culture more widespread in continental Europe but some LGM type winter disaster destroyed them other than the survivors who some who ended up in Scandinavia but I doubt it. At the same time it would make sense considering hg I came to Scandinavia via continental Europe anyways

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    H

    Country: Italy



    Wow can you look at that... If this map is indeed correct we can draw so many conclusions from it. So Bosnian-herzegovinans I-M26 arrived to Sardinia by crossing over to Italy .it arrived to Iberia afterwards, also some how ending up in England,where it left negligible levels. It neither dominated in Italy nor Spain even though lots of the I in Spain is of this variety it must amount to like 4-5% of spaniards. It dominated in Sardinia though, only. The red L233 branch moved from Balkans through continental Europe to Netherlands then England. It must be an ancient unsuccessful movement destroyed by LGM, a negligible branch. Most of these branches must be found at negligible levels, destroyed by the LGM. Also the green lines going across Italy that's a weird branch that must own very low levels of men from those countries , weird. Even at low frequencies , English French and Spanish and definitely Sardinians have I-M26. There are also other groups of I2 or I that are odd like the English I-M284 or I-L38 which "hooked" onto Celtic cultures near the la tene culture area and are found at very very low frequencies in the Rhineland and British isles. Also I-M284 is linked to the la tene culture and before that to Romanian Dacian tribes that where I-M223 positive. I-M223 of which I-M284 is a subclade, is found at its highest frequencies circa 4% of Germans, Dutch, Belgians and Danes, this branch as I noted above came from Dacian tribes and subsequently began moving towards Czech Republic, some of it even ending up in France at low frequencies.
    Last edited by adamo; 15-04-13 at 22:58.

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