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Thread: Rus in Russia, who were they?

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    Post Rus in Russia, who were they?



    Quote Originally Posted by GloomyGonzales View Post
    Could you share with me and other guys from this forum information about Scandianvian clades present in Russia (I mean territory of ancient Russia), Belarus and Ukrain?
    That's probably a good point, showing that quick events don't register on Y-dna scale. Vikings didn't register much in Russian yDNA, even though they where a ruling elite for short time and gave name Rus to Russia. What registered are the long lasting previous events of older I1 incursions into east of Moscow, down south-east from Finland. By the same token Goth's march from Baltic Sea, through Poland, to Black Sea didn't register either. Neither Germanic tribes going to Iberia did much of an impact on Y chromosomes or a language. It was too short lasing.
    Be wary of people who tend to glorify the past, underestimate the present, and demonize the future.

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    Quote Originally Posted by GloomyGonzales View Post
    You say so silly things. How is it possible to make conclusions about movements of people on the basis of a map made just for I haplo? We should at least have information about clades of I1 and I2 located in the certain territory and their TMRCA. All your dreams about Vandals with I haplo and vikings in Russia have nothing with reality. There were no vikings in Russia coz there's no haplos in Russia and Central and Eastern Europe with typical clades for Scandinavia. Folks with I1 and I2 clades in Russia of no douts came in Russia in two migration waves: first one - Fatyanovo people (migration from Southe Baltic region ~ 5200 bp), second wave - migration with R1a-z280 germanic people from Southe Baltic region in present day Russia (~1500 - 1300 bp).

    P.S. Association of Fatyanovo culture with R1a folks is a mistake since there are no so old clades of R1a in Fatyanovo culture zone. It could be only I1 folks which later mixed with baltic and finnic people.
    Can you give area what you mean Russia?
    I mean FinnoKarelia Ucraine Crimea Samara etc are included?
    cause with term Russia my mind goes can go to Novgorod+Moschovia but also from Archangels to Ossetia.


    Both History and Linguistic is proved about Varrangians and Crimean Gothic. that is why I ask.
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    Quote Originally Posted by LeBrok View Post
    That's probably a good point, showing that quick events don't register on Y-dna scale. Vikings didn't register much in Russian yDNA, even though they where a ruling elite for short time and gave name Rus to Russia. What registered are the long lasting previous events of older I1 incursions into east of Moscow, down south-east from Finland.
    Where did you get that Rus were vikings? All guys claming Rurukid ancestry have clades typical for South Baltic region. It looks like that folks from South Baltic occupied territories of Southern Scandinavia. I guess they were Lords of Scandinavian folks (myths of Asir gods from Eastern Europe become true.)

    Here's map of R1a and N1c caldes from South Baltic region:
    http://foto.rambler.ru/photos/511dff...-78ba339b47af/


    Quote Originally Posted by LeBrok View Post
    By the same token Goth's march from Baltic Sea, through Poland, to Black Sea didn't register either. It was too short lasing.
    The problem is that we have no typical Scandinavian clades not only in Poland and Ukraine but as well in Balkans, Italy and Spain (all places where East Germanic people settled) but at the same time we have traces of migration of some R1a-Z280 clades from South Baltic region to Ukraine, Balkans, Italy and Spain. And do not forget that Goths have not been the only East Germanic tribe and these tribes were numerous enough to destroy Roman Imperia.

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    Quote Originally Posted by Yetos View Post
    Can you give area what you mean Russia?
    I mean FinnoKarelia Ucraine Crimea Samara etc are included?
    cause with term Russia my mind goes can go to Novgorod+Moschovia but also from Archangels to Ossetia.


    Both History and Linguistic is proved about Varrangians and Crimean Gothic. that is why I ask.

    I mean territory of Kievan Rus.

    Big light-green territory in center.

    http://foto.rambler.ru/photos/511e04...-3a0e0b6b8f18/

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    Quote Originally Posted by GloomyGonzales View Post
    I mean territory of Kievan Rus.

    Big light-green territory in center.

    http://foto.rambler.ru/photos/511e04...-3a0e0b6b8f18/

    I see and I am litlle bit surprised or stun,

    History and Linguists mention with proves avout Viking invasion through Volga to Ucraine, also Varrangian runic system writting, and Varrangian Guard of Byzantines was Scand speaking, that is why I am a little bit lost,

    I wonder about Iceland, Iceland is also inhabited by Vikings, do we see any common similar Hg with Iceland and Kiev-Rus,
    I know Moschovia and Samara were not affected by that, I am interesting west Of Volga river, and mainly Ucraine,

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    Quote Originally Posted by GloomyGonzales View Post
    Keep on entertaining me, man. I said that there's no Scandinavian clades in Russian and Central and Eastern Europe. "Scandinavian clades" means clades typical for Scandinavia while you tell me about clades typical fro Elba -Oder region of South Baltic.

    Here's the map for I1-z140 clades.

    http://foto.rambler.ru/photos/511dcf...-8076b0bedf5b/

    Which of these I1-z140 clades are Scandinavian and at the same time present in Central and Eastern Europe? Answer is none. As I said all I1 clades in Central and Easter Europe are from Elba-Oder region. There is only one exclusion it's Karelian clade but it has nothing to do with vikings.
    Thank you for posting that map Gloomy. You completely proved my point for me. I couldn't have placed the markers better myself to illustrate Viking travel in this lineage. I may ask you to help me in some of my prior debates!

    The King of Denmark 700 A.D. (FamilyTreeDNA Anglo-Saxon project) can be inferred Z140+. But you may not consider Denmark part of Scandinavia so I can't help you there.

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    Quote Originally Posted by nordicfoyer View Post
    By the way that map misses a large chunk of Z140 in Southern Finland (Baltic Coast) and also a clump of Z140 in Northern Sweden (also on the Baltic Coast).
    Where can one find such map displaying all locations where Z140 is found?

    That would be of interest to me.

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    Quote Originally Posted by GloomyGonzales View Post
    Where did you get that Rus were vikings?
    Don't know, just heard the story few times. Here is what people say:
    According to the Primary Chronicle Rurik was one of the Rus, a Varangian tribe likened by the chronicler to Danes, Swedes, English and Gotlanders. In the 20th century, archaeologists partly corroborated the chronicle's version of events. It was discovered that the settlement of Ladoga, whose foundation has been ascribed to Rurik, was actually established in the mid-9th century, although doubt is now cast on this by the dendrochronological evidence that Ladoga existed by the mid-8th century.[citation needed]Earthenware, household utensils, and types of buildings from the period of Rurik's foundation correspond to patterns then prevalent in Jutland
    http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Rurik


    All guys claming Rurukid ancestry have clades typical for South Baltic region. It looks like that folks from South Baltic occupied territories of Southern Scandinavia. I guess they were Lords of Scandinavian folks (myths of Asir gods from Eastern Europe become true.)
    We know that south Baltic coast was occupied by Goths before they moved south to Black Sea, from 0 to 200 AD.

    In 9th century, Rurik times, south Baltic was in hands of Slavs in Pomerania to Denmark, and Prussians.

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    According Byzantine Chronicles (Σκυλιτσης, Skylitzes, Ψελλος Psellos), we have Ρως (Roos) origin from North and 'Ταγμα των Βαρραγγιων',Varragian Battalion-Guard in Con/plis,
    their writting system foolowed Runic system of Sweden, as can be found in the Lion of Porto Leone (Piraus) stolen by Venicians and now in Venice.

    we are speaking much before 3rd Rome (Ceasaria- Tsar title) the ducate of of Moschow


    I will post 4 links videos, and 1 url

    http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=X4_r-IySNKM

    http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=E6T9zVFhxkE

    http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=C06pP0rCvMs

    http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=AQT4TswIYS4

    http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Crimean_Gothic

    in the last video end is a map of what are mention as Varaggian settlements.

    Roos (Rus) and Roxolani (Ruslans) is still what makes me wondering.

    so the historical and Linguistic we have proves, now Genetically I can not tell positive or negative,
    But among Crimean Greeks we find extraordinary Blondism.
    it can be after normal mixing, or by absorving the remain of Varrangians,
    Last edited by Yetos; 16-02-13 at 13:31.

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    Quote Originally Posted by LeBrok View Post
    Don't know, just heard the story few times. Here is what people say:

    http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Rurik



    We know that south Baltic coast was occupied by Goths before they moved south to Black Sea, from 0 to 200 AD.

    In 9th century, Rurik times, south Baltic was in hands of Slavs in Pomerania to Denmark, and Prussians.

    The problem is that according to y-dna Goths could not come from Scandinavia but folks from South Baltic did migrate in Scandinavia. Mabye you do not know but the first runes were found in South Poland then they were used in Poland and in East Europe and only then runes appeared in Scandinavia. If you remember Scandinavian myths it was Wodin who brought runes in Scandinavia and Wodin was from East Europe.

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    Quote Originally Posted by spruithean View Post
    Where can one find such map displaying all locations where Z140 is found?

    That would be of interest to me.
    Spruithean, there's a few of these Z140+ maps floating around, probably because of the size of the subclade. The problem is that they are often in Russian (Russians seem to take genetic histories pretty seriously I've noticed) so it helps if you speak the language which I do not. I'll keep my eyes peeled for links...

    But in the meantime FamilyTreeDNA projects page can serve as "do it yourself" station to build data on more defined lines.

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    Has anybody seen the links I post.


    Quote Originally Posted by GloomyGonzales View Post
    The problem is that according to y-dna Goths could not come from Scandinavia but folks from South Baltic did migrate in Scandinavia. Mabye you do not know but the first runes were found in South Poland then they were used in Poland and in East Europe and only then runes appeared in Scandinavia. If you remember Scandinavian myths it was Wodin who brought runes in Scandinavia and Wodin was from East Europe.
    I don't know about that,

    It can be,

    1) so you suggest Roxolani become Rus and return? as possible?

    2) my personal, yet unaproved, believe that Visigoths Βησιοι-Getae and Vikings could be connected among them?

    3) a Baltic or Slavic that went Germanised speaking and return? or a Germaic speaking from Baltic that went and return?

    ps did you see the links I post?

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    Quote Originally Posted by Yetos View Post
    Has anybody seen the links I post.




    I don't know about that,

    It can be,

    1) so you suggest Roxolani become Rus and return? as possible?

    2) my personal, yet unaproved, believe that Visigoths Βησιοι-Getae and Vikings could be connected among them?

    3) a Baltic or Slavic that went Germanised speaking and return? or a Germaic speaking from Baltic that went and return?

    ps did you see the links I post?
    From what i read

    rus = vikings that where asked to govern russians, be their kings.
    roxolani = 1 of the many tribes which are part of sarmatians, alani are another tribe of the sarmatians.
    visigoths - west goths, originally baltic people ( pure goths) and gepids.
    ostrogoths = east goths, goths from the black sea, getae, northern thracians, remaining sarmatians etc.

    correct me if I am wrong
    Father's Mtdna H95a1
    Grandfather Mtdna T2b24
    Great Grandfather Mtdna T1a1e
    GMother paternal side YDna R1b-S8172
    Mother's YDna R1a-Z282

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    Wodin who brought runes in Scandinavia
    There is a study Wodin is Hg R1a and forms the aristocracy of Sweden.

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    Reply

    Quote Originally Posted by zanipolo View Post
    From what i read

    rus = vikings that where asked to govern russians, be their kings.
    roxolani = 1 of the many tribes which are part of sarmatians, alani are another tribe of the sarmatians.
    visigoths - west goths, originally baltic people ( pure goths) and gepids.
    ostrogoths = east goths, goths from the black sea, getae, northern thracians, remaining sarmatians etc.

    correct me if I am wrong
    I agree with you on the Rus, Visogoths, and Ostrogoths. I haven't done enough research on Roxolani to know their origins.

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    Quote Originally Posted by oriental View Post
    There is a study Wodin is Hg R1a and forms the aristocracy of Sweden.
    Yes, I agree R1a brought Wodin/Odin (discussed in the Norse pantheon). I also agree that R1a was the aristocracy of parts of Scandanavia, but past tense. The royal R1b lineage has surpassed both I1 and R1a in modern times--doesn't this line now occupy every House in Europe (not just Scandanavia) at this point?

    In terms of R1a being credited with developing Runes... hg I is most associated with stone moving and carving (over thousands of years) so I don't quite buy into this statement. Are there published sources that indicate this R1a/Rune association?

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    Quote Originally Posted by zanipolo View Post
    From what i read

    rus = vikings that where asked to govern russians, be their kings.
    roxolani = 1 of the many tribes which are part of sarmatians, alani are another tribe of the sarmatians.
    visigoths - west goths, originally baltic people ( pure goths) and gepids.
    ostrogoths = east goths, goths from the black sea, getae, northern thracians, remaining sarmatians etc.

    correct me if I am wrong
    yes, that is how it goes. from the data/sources and rest.

    But Βησιοι are also mention as Thracian Getae,
    so either Βησιοι = Visi Either Bhsioi = Ostro either Βησιοι non connected Visi or Ostro or Viki, yet simmilarity and neighborhoud among βησιοι Visigoths Vikings as name simmilar only, makes me suspicious.

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    Quote Originally Posted by GloomyGonzales View Post
    The problem is that according to y-dna Goths could not come from Scandinavia but folks from South Baltic did migrate in Scandinavia. Mabye you do not know but the first runes were found in South Poland then they were used in Poland and in East Europe and only then runes appeared in Scandinavia. If you remember Scandinavian myths it was Wodin who brought runes in Scandinavia and Wodin was from East Europe.
    Check this link, it is an incredible find from Pomerania. Shows complicated cultural mixture of Viking, Polish and connection to Kievan Russ. Very fresh from last years dig. It's in polish so use translate button, chrome translated it very well I must say.

    http://www.polskieradio.pl/8/650/Art...kladali-Polske



    Edit.
    Sorry, the discovery is not in Pomerania, it's about 200 km from the sea, but on Vistula river, which make a sense for Viking travel, but not much with Pomerania.



    - Nowhere in Poland, something like that was not there before. We were looking on, anywhere in Europe, something similar was not - tells the talon Professor Andrzej Buko, director of the Institute of Archaeology and Ethnology, who directed excavations in Bodzia on Kujawach.
    At the cemetery there are graves of people whose funeral rites combines elements of Scandinavian, Slavic , the eastern steppe peoples, Byzantine, Great Moravia, and those that can only be found in the tombs of the sixth, seventh century of the British Isles ...
    - One-third of these graves has wooden coffin boxes. It is a thing unique. During this time, the Polish lands these boxes coffin is not. This is a custom very, very late - says prof. Buko about the discovery of butts dating back to the tenth, eleventh century AD.



    the cemetery are buried at least 14 men, 21 women and 14 children. The average life of women was between 22 to 35 years and men 35 to 55 years. All are strangers, do not come from these areas.Extremely rich equipment graves indicates that the butts were buried representatives of contemporary social elites.
    Apart remains were found two kaptorgi, or silver puzderka, which in the early Middle Ages stored relics and amulets. They are decorated with the symbol of an eagle, maybe it was the coat of arms of these people. However, scientists from the Polish and other countries are not anywhere equivalent for this particular symbol.
    was in the tombs also include gold weight, extremely rare item found in medieval graves. Gold plated beads, made ​​probably in Constantinople, scientists count in the hundreds.

    Particularly intrigued researchers tomb 25 year old warrior. It has shattered skull. They found him in a fetal position, his hands holding silver, ornate sword.
    Shortly into his body is a body of a young woman. We can only guess that it probably died, to be buried with a man. After the right hand of the warrior is buried a young woman. Time, in which she died is difficult to estimate.
    Tomb is oriented north-south direction, which would indicate the former Viking rites. However, the man found objects suggest that he had to be very closely related to the Kievan Rus.
    Perhaps it was one of the Viking warriors hired ruler of Kievan Rus Swiatopelk Cursed, perhaps it was his son? Surely he had to be closely associated with the court of Boleslaw the Brave.
    - In my opinion, the role of the Vikings in the formation of the Polish state is well documented archaeologically - said prof. Buko in "Treasury of Polish Science" - aside butts, I went back a few days ago from Wolin, where colleagues from the resort instytutowego in Szczecin conduct research. There we have a sensational discovery, hundreds of finds related directly to Scandinavia Viking. Such a class finds no one had seen. usc / photos come from the archives of the Institute of Archaeology and Ethnology of the Polish Academy of Sciences
    Last edited by LeBrok; 21-06-14 at 16:52.

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    Quote Originally Posted by GloomyGonzales View Post
    The problem is that according to y-dna Goths could not come from Scandinavia but folks from South Baltic did migrate in Scandinavia. Mabye you do not know but the first runes were found in South Poland then they were used in Poland and in East Europe and only then runes appeared in Scandinavia. If you remember Scandinavian myths it was Wodin who brought runes in Scandinavia and Wodin was from East Europe.
    Not according to this wiki page:

    http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Runic_script

    Runes from territory of Poland are connected to East Germanic tribes living there pre 5th century AD.

    By 9th century we might have mixture of left over East Germanics mixed with Slavs after Slavic expansion. There are also strong culturally Viking centers like Wolin. Well, more like Viking way of life, because the deities are of Slavic kind, like Swiatowit.
    http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Wolin

    Pomerania for long time stayed pagan and mostly independent fighting and revolting against polish kings from 1000 to 1200.

    There is also a possibility that Viking influence came later with conquest of Baltic shores between 700 to 1000 AD. With time their settlements were taken over by Pomeranian Slavs adopting sea fairing culture. Or Vikings conquering Pomeranian Slavs and ruling them as elites only.

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    In terms of R1a being credited with developing Runes
    Here is Dr. Faux:

    http://www.davidkfaux.org/CentralAsi...NAEvidence.pdf

    It is a little dated as it was done in 2007 five or six years ago.

    Recalling back to the archaeological and historical evidence discussed above, it was
    noted that the Heruls and their associates (e.g., Huns) were thought to have begun new
    dynasties in Scandinavia beginning circa 450 AD. Sigurdsson has reported in the Norse
    – Icelandic Sagas that the men from Asia became the aristocrats of Sweden and Norway.
    It may be of significance that the linguistic evidence seen in the rune stones (“ErilaRrunes”)
    dated to this time in Scandinavia (the earliest are 4 from Sweden and 5 from
    Norway, and the earliest of these dated to the 5th Century), and thought to be connected
    with the Wolthan Cult arriving from the south, often contain the word “Eruli”, which is
    another variant of Herul. Rune stones, with essentially the same script, has been found
    on items such as a silver bowl in a Saka – Sarmatian grave circa 400 BC,
    indistinguishable, according to Kimball – Davis, from their Germanic counterparts.
    Artuns (1994) provides evidence that the rune stones of Norway have their origins in the
    Middle East.

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    Faux is haplogroup R and gears much of his writing towards his own haplogroup. Many if not most of us are guilty of this same transgression, nevertheless I would need another source Oriental.

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    Quote Originally Posted by nordicfoyer View Post
    Faux is haplogroup R and gears much of his writing towards his own haplogroup. Many if not most of us are guilty of this same transgression, nevertheless I would need another source Oriental.
    yours does not open.....did you mean this
    http://www.davidkfaux.org/CentralAsi...NAEvidence.pdf

    in regards to heruli.........
    Heruli were the forefathers of modern Samogitians. In prehistoric times they were called "Hirri" or "Giriai", which means "Forest Dwellers"
    The Herulian language is very similar to the Samogitian dialect; it also resembles the Courish dialect.

    1. HERULIAN:TABES MUS,KAS TUES EKSZAN
    2. Samogitian:Teivs mus, kors tu es's auksta
    3. Lithuanian: Teve musu, kurs tu esi aukstai
    4. English: Father our who art high

    Are the ancient Heruli first a baltic people who created the runes and later became germanic via language or .....??

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    Quote Originally Posted by LeBrok View Post
    Not according to this wiki page:

    By 9th century we might have mixture of left over East Germanics mixed with Slavs after Slavic expansion. There are also strong culturally Viking centers like Wolin. Well, more like Viking way of life, because the deities are of Slavic kind, like Swiatowit.
    http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Wolin

    There is also a possibility that Viking influence came later with conquest of Baltic shores between 700 to 1000 AD. With time their settlements were taken over by Pomeranian Slavs adopting sea fairing culture. Or Vikings conquering Pomeranian Slavs and ruling them as elites only.

    There's not any special Viking culture there's culture of Baltic region. The problem is that some guys trying to userp it and position it as Scandinavian and on this basis build stupid theories about Vikings living in Central and Eastern Europe. For a while genetic testing shows us completely different story from what we have heard for many years it shows that Baltic region was controlled by guys from South Baltic and Scandinavian folks did not settle in Central and Eastern Europe.

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    Gloomy, what did you think about Yetos' videos? You seem like you're back peddling about your claims that the Vikings never went to Russia. I have no Russian heritage (that I know of), I'm just following what the archelogists have found, what the genetics say, and what the oral histories have indicated. I admitted my goof on assuming the hg I in N. Africa is from the Vandals (although there's still a very good chance it is), you should own up to your false claims that the Scandinavian Vikings never made it to Russia.

    Here's some numbers from the Viking Project on FamilytreeDNA:
    Of the roughly 330 I1 families on the site--23 identified as being located in either Russia, Belarus, Ukraine, Poland, or Lithuania (roughly 7%)

    Interestingly, the NC1 lines had no Russian hits, but 2 from Latvia. (Much smaller sample than I1)

    I didn't tally the R1a lines, but they seemed comparable to I1 in the Russian percentages. (A light smattering.)

    **EDIT**
    I just did a count on R1a (to be fair)... on the same Viking Project R1a had 94 family names and nine were from either the Russian Federation, Poland, or Lithuania for a 9.57% total. (None were from Belarus or the Ukraine.)

    Of the sizable R1b haplogroup listed on the Viking Project, none had a tie to the Eastern countries.
    Last edited by nordicfoyer; 19-02-13 at 17:12. Reason: added stats

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    Polish nobles came from Sarmatians? Some came from Scandinavia.
    Of course, it is well documented that the Russian nobility were Swedish Vikings. In the case of Poland, the evidence is weaker. (link removed)
    "Since Vikings were responsible for founding the state of the Rus, some people have wondered if a they could have also been the founders of a Polish state.
    There are some arguments for that theory:1. In one early written documents, Mieszko I is called "Dagome", which could be a Norman name, derived from Dagon.2. Some Viking weapons have been found in Poland.3 There were Viking settlements in Pomerania, the most important of which was Jomsborg.4 Several Polish noblemen had runes on their coats of arms."

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