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Thread: New map of Haplogroups E1b1b + G + J + T

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    Post New map of Haplogroups E1b1b + G + J + T

    Here is the third and final map in my new series designed to show the three major components of the European population. The first map, representing all subclades of Haplogroup I, i.e. the lineages descended from the Palaeolithic and Mesolithic inhabitants of Europe. The second combined haplogroups R1a and R1b to show the impact of Indo-European migrations in the Bronze and Iron Ages.

    This third map attempts to display the total percentage of Middle Eastern and North African male lineages by merging the data for haplogroups E1b1b, G, J1, J2 and T. Most of them colonised Europe from Anatolia during the Neolithic. Haplogroup J2 may have expanded from the Levant, Anatolia and Greece during the Bronze and Iron Ages, notably thanks to the Phoenician, Greek and Roman civilisations. The Greeks probably brought J2 to South Italy and Provence, while the Romans Empire contributed to the dispersal of J2 throughout the empire.

    Last edited by Maciamo; 20-02-13 at 13:26.
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    Maciamo, what are your thoughts on R1b possibly having entered Europe in the Neolithic with these other farmers, and only becoming indo-europeanized after contact with Corded Ware R1a people? Some people in other forums seem pretty convinced about that idea.

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    Quote Originally Posted by Degredado View Post
    Maciamo, what are your thoughts on R1b possibly having entered Europe in the Neolithic with these other farmers, and only becoming indo-europeanized after contact with Corded Ware R1a people? Some people in other forums seem pretty convinced about that idea.
    I have explained many times on the forum and in my R1b history that I strongly believe that R1b (downstream of M269) arrived with the Indo-Europeans during the Bronze Age. It is possible that a small minority of older subclades, like R1b-P25 or R1b-V88 arrived during the Neolithic, but they represent less than 1% of European R1b today.

    I actually wrote all the R1b history and various supporting posts on this forum because most (if not all) "professional" population geneticists claimed that R1b was the main lineage that brought agriculture to Europe during the Neolithic. The same people claimed a few years earlier that R1b was descended straight from Cro-Magnon, and re-expanded to Western Europe from the Franco-Cantabrian refuge at the end of the last Ice Age. The problem is that these "scientists" have little or no knowledge of European prehistory, archaeology and palaeoanthropology (notably craniofacial anthropometry). That is why they can only come to the wrong conclusions.

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    I Just Wanted To Give Thanks To Maciamo For Posting The New Hap Maps, Really Helpful For Conducting Amateur Research And The Like. Also When Do You Think Haplogroup E Entered Europe, Neolithic, Epipaleolithic Or Something Else.

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    I think it would be far more beneficial if E got its own map and left the Caucasus and middle-east ( G +J + T ) markers to define there areas. I see no benefit as it is now.

    The E markers could be split between the V series and others in there own map.
    Father's Mtdna H95a1
    Grandfather Mtdna T2b24
    Great Grandfather Mtdna T1a1e
    GMother paternal side YDna R1b-S8172
    Mother's YDna R1a-Z282

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    Quote Originally Posted by zanipolo View Post
    I think it would be far more beneficial if E got its own map and left the Caucasus and middle-east ( G +J + T ) markers to define there areas. I see no benefit as it is now.

    The E markers could be split between the V series and others in there own map.
    Each of these haplogroups have had their own map for quite a while now.

    I am planning to make maps for subclades of E1b1b, but there isn't enough data for many areas, and I just can't make a map with "holes" in it.

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    Quote Originally Posted by Maciamo View Post
    Each of these haplogroups have had their own map for quite a while now.

    I am planning to make maps for subclades of E1b1b, but there isn't enough data for many areas, and I just can't make a map with "holes" in it.
    It would be interesting to see a map with (G+J+T), because there is little E1b1B in the middle east and most Anatolia, so including it somehow distorts the image.

    That said, a map if E-V13+J2 would also be interesting.

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    Quote Originally Posted by Maciamo View Post
    Each of these haplogroups have had their own map for quite a while now.

    I am planning to make maps for subclades of E1b1b, but there isn't enough data for many areas, and I just can't make a map with "holes" in it.
    What I meant was - If you remove the E from the map, then the other 3 would represent a far better and worthwhile map, especially with a maybe trend of G, T and J in central alpine europe.
    ATM, E distorts the map because E is too huge

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    Quote Originally Posted by Maciamo View Post
    Here is the third and final map in my new series designed to show the three major components of the European population. The first map, representing all subclades of Haplogroup I, i.e. the lineages descended from the Palaeolithic and Mesolithic inhabitants of Europe. The second combined haplogroups R1a and R1b to show the impact of Indo-European migrations in the Bronze and Iron Ages.

    This third map attempts to display the total percentage of Middle Eastern and North African male lineages by merging the data for haplogroups E1b1b, G, J1, J2 and T. Most of them colonised Europe from Anatolia during the Neolithic. Haplogroup J2 may have expanded from the Levant, Anatolia and Greece during the Bronze and Iron Ages, notably thanks to the Phoenician, Greek and Roman civilisations. The Greeks probably brought J2 to South Italy and Provence, while the Romans Empire contributed to the dispersal of J2 throughout the empire.

    interesting map (I did something close to it at home, with less technical means, and using your data)
    1- I think the big (huge) central concentration of these 4 elements in France has to be reduced and will be reduced and precised when more data will be gathered about France
    2- if it is interesting concerning comparisons with autosomals (to be done) it remains the problem of different cultures having brought these unprecise big HGs at different times, but having had the same targets for geographic reasons
    for Y-E1b it is very important because two main ways seam envolved: the Maghreb one and the Egyptian-coastal Near-Eastern one
    thanks nevertheless

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    Quote Originally Posted by zanipolo View Post
    What I meant was - If you remove the E from the map, then the other 3 would represent a far better and worthwhile map, especially with a maybe trend of G, T and J in central alpine europe.
    ATM, E distorts the map because E is too huge
    Yet, E1b1b seem to have been an important Neolithic haplogroup. Aside from G2a, E-V13 is the only haplogroup that has been identified in actual Neolithic samples so far. Other subclades like M123 and V22 could only have come to Europe from the Southwest Asia. The only subclade worth removing would be the Northwest African M81. But even M81 could have come from the Middle East to Northwest Africa and Europe during the Neolithic, or at least its mother clades M310 or Z827, since the M81 mutation appears to be very recent (about 6000 years ago, i.e. end of Neolithic or early Bronze Age). In other words, it is very possible that all E1b1b subclades found in Europe do have their origins ultimately in the Middle East (and before that in Northeast Africa, or on either side of the Red Sea).

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    Quote Originally Posted by MOESAN View Post
    1- I think the big (huge) central concentration of these 4 elements in France has to be reduced and will be reduced and precised when more data will be gathered about France
    France has the most unreliable data on all the map in Europe, aside from Russia, Belarus and Ukraine. This is because France is the largest Western European country but data is sparse for many regions (Lorraine, Normandy, Pays de la Loire, Centre, Burgundy, Limousin, Languedoc-Roussillon). I had to extrapolate data for central France based on the data for the Île-de-France and Auvergne. From an anthropological point of view the people of the Loire Valley are more Mediterranean-looking than the other northern French. I wouldn't be surprised if we found high concentrations of Middle Eastern haplogroups in Berry and Tourraine, for example.

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    Quote Originally Posted by Maciamo View Post
    Yet, E1b1b seem to have been an important Neolithic haplogroup. Aside from G2a, E-V13 is the only haplogroup that has been identified in actual Neolithic samples so far. Other subclades like M123 and V22 could only have come to Europe from the Southwest Asia. The only subclade worth removing would be the Northwest African M81. But even M81 could have come from the Middle East to Northwest Africa and Europe during the Neolithic, or at least its mother clades M310 or Z827, since the M81 mutation appears to be very recent (about 6000 years ago, i.e. end of Neolithic or early Bronze Age). In other words, it is very possible that all E1b1b subclades found in Europe do have their origins ultimately in the Middle East (and before that in Northeast Africa, or on either side of the Red Sea).
    Ok
    Maybe i misunderstood what your aim was for these maps.

    I still maintain though that a map ( or new "aim" of maps ) splitting the E group from its V series and others would be worthwhile , both for europe and africa.
    and
    as stated G + T+ J to should any standout areas, even the 9% of G in egypt


    something like these posts attached in the link ..........maybe they have a different aim
    http://www.sudanforum.net/showthread.php?t=154182

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    I agree with Maciamo concerning phenotypes: even if not totally homogenous, the more 'mediterranean' looking (I don't evocate here the more precise 'mediter' of the autosomals polings) indicate surely a NE African - Near Eastern far origin - and except in Corsica, and at a less degree of points of Mediterranea coasts and Pyreneas (not all of them, because 'alpine' and 'dinaric' play a role too), the most impact of 'pheno-mediterranean' types are (WERE?) firstable in Perigord, and then between Eastern Poitou - Western Berry (not Eastern), Southern Touraine, and some parts of Anjou too; but a lot of these superficial 'mediterranean' looking populations contain western-mediterranean types where some paleolithical types play a light role, I suppose... as a whole I think that for autosomals, 'mediter' is important, maybe more than 'west-asian' or 'caucasus' even if this (these?) last element(s?) is far from being negligeable in France - for details, 'danubian-mediterranean' type ('mediter'? 'caucasus'? SW-asian'? Y-E1b-V13?) played an important role between Normandy, Bassin Parisian and even in North and East of France, before being erased enough by later migrations - not so much South the Loire river -

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    Interesting

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