Haplogroup I, is it European?

[Anthro-inclined]

I have never seen any study which implies high frequency of Y-DNA I in Dagestan. Can you post it?

I Posted It Just Up The Page, But Since I Like Ya Here It Is Again: http://dienekes.blogspot.ca/2009/12/...nders.html?m=1
Links Dead So Here's a graph of the results. Its hard to see but DA are the dargingians and the largest chunk is I.

 

[Malsori]

I Posted It Just Up The Page, But Since I Like Ya Here It Is Again: http://dienekes.blogspot.ca/2009/12/...nders.html?m=1
Links Dead So Here's a graph of the results. Its hard to see but DA are the dargingians and the largest chunk is I.

According to this study. The Darginians who compose 15% of the population of Dagestan have 56% Y-DNA I. Turks have 26% and Iranians from Teheran 36%.

http://www.familytreedna.com/pdf/caucasus.pdf

They seem unlikely percentages to me. I have heard before the about the Iranian/Tehran high percentage of Y-DNA I is due to some mistake.

 

[Anthro-inclined]

According to this study. The Darginians who compose 15% of the population of Dagestan have 56% Y-DNA I. Turks have 26% and Iranians from Teheran 36%.

http://www.familytreedna.com/pdf/caucasus.pdf

They seem unlikely percentages to me. I have heard before the about the Iranian/Tehran high percentage of Y-DNA I is due to some mistake.

Cant Really Dispute With You On This Topic, If Its Your Opinion That The Study Is False, Then There Isnt Much Else I Have To Offer, But Thanks For The Info On The Caucasus, Ive Been Trying To Find A Good Paper On It For Awhile Now.

 

[nordicwarrior]

It's not true. The research was flawed, Current works don't confirm those results.

You've got a good point Kardu... I'm going to back off my initial claims, but let me give some background info. that may be helpful. My dad got his DNA tested as soon as he heard about the process, which was at least seven years ago (maybe more). When he got his initial results back, I misunderstood the readings and had us being members of the Lak people. I researched the Lak tribe like crazy and found that they did have very interesting M170* readings which put them as some of the first hg I. I think the Lak diversity still stands, but not the higher population percentages that the later test indicated.

The high hg I readings in Iran have always thrown me for a loop. I have no answer (and yes I've heard those studies may have been flawed as well) other than to say the area needs to be studied further, with more accurate and modern methods.

 

[zanipolo]

You've got a good point Kardu... I'm going to back off my initial claims, but let me give some background info. that may be helpful. My dad got his DNA tested as soon as he heard about the process, which was at least seven years ago (maybe more). When he got his initial results back, I misunderstood the readings and had us being members of the Lak people. I researched the Lak tribe like crazy and found that they did have very interesting M170* readings which put them as some of the first hg I. I think the Lak diversity still stands, but not the higher population percentages that the later test indicated.

The high hg I readings in Iran have always thrown me for a loop. I have no answer (and yes I've heard those studies may have been flawed as well) other than to say the area needs to be studied further, with more accurate and modern methods.

in regards to I-M170 some say Balkan and Crimea ( of the Gravettian culture )

but 2011 and 2012 studies of I have West Asia (Terreros 2011 and Fernandes 2012).

so for I to be European, it must have started around the north and west parts of the black sea

 

[Kardu]

You've got a good point Kardu... I'm going to back off my initial claims, but let me give some background info. that may be helpful. My dad got his DNA tested as soon as he heard about the process, which was at least seven years ago (maybe more). When he got his initial results back, I misunderstood the readings and had us being members of the Lak people. I researched the Lak tribe like crazy and found that they did have very interesting M170* readings which put them as some of the first hg I. I think the Lak diversity still stands, but not the higher population percentages that the later test indicated.

The high hg I readings in Iran have always thrown me for a loop. I have no answer (and yes I've heard those studies may have been flawed as well) other than to say the area needs to be studied further, with more accurate and modern methods.

All right, that's what I've heard personally from Kazima Bulayeva who is a population geneticist from Dagestan and adminsiters their DNA project:

Me: And btw, since we are talking about Daghestan genetic studies, is there any foundation in Nasidze's claim that there was incredible amount of haplogroup I among Dargins? Or it was some lab error?







Kazima Bulayeva
Most likely -error...I have a lot of dargins data...I just did not want criticize him and did not accent on differences. I know how Ivan collected data among Dargins-it was not right collections...

 

[Anthro-inclined]

in regards to I-M170 some say Balkan and Crimea ( of the Gravettian culture )

but 2011 and 2012 studies of I have West Asia (Terreros 2011 and Fernandes 2012).

so for I to be European, it must have started around the north and west parts of the black sea

Good Input, Its Good Were Keeping The Views On I Varied, Also Lets Try To Shift Focus From Dagestan Back To The Initial Toic Of Where The Origin For I . Who Truly Knows The Validity Of The Study For Sure, But This Is Only One Point For A Non Euro Origin For I. Lets Remeber Things That We Should See Going Along With A Haplogroups Origin Point Like Diversity, Early Clades And Parent Haplogroups.

 

[nordicwarrior]

Good Input, Its Good Were Keeping The Views On I Varied, Also Lets Try To Shift Focus From Dagestan Back To The Initial Toic Of Where The Origin For I . Who Truly Knows The Validity Of The Study For Sure, But This Is Only One Point For A Non Euro Origin For I. Lets Remeber Things That We Should See Going Along With A Haplogroups Origin Point Like Diversity, Early Clades And Parent Haplogroups.

I like that idea Anthro-inclined, but please let's not totally discard the Dagestan/Daghestan tribe, even at low numbers their diversity is remarkable, and they are considered to be an ancient sheltered population due to their mountainous surroundings. But we are still early in the hg I hunt so it's best to keep options on the table--like Balkans, Iran, etc.

 

[Anthro-inclined]

I like that idea Anthro-inclined, but please let's not totally discard the Dagestan/Daghestan tribe, even at low numbers their diversity is remarkable, and they are considered to be an ancient sheltered population due to their mountainous surroundings. But we are still early in the hg I hunt so it's best to keep options on the table--like Balkans, Iran, etc.

I Agree Completeley, I Still Vest Importance In Dagestan For Finding I's Origin, And By All Means If You Feel You Can Defend It And Show Its Relavence To The Topic Of I For Sure Voice Your Opinion. I Was Just Concerned That The Oppistion Towards The Dagestan Subject Was Detracting From The Overall Goal Of The Thread.

 

[MOESAN]

what is "Europe" definition? - what is an HG "origin place"?
Y-I is from Y-IJ (IJK?) cousin to Y-G, descended all of them (I believe) from Y-F
the remote origin is surely between N-E and Caucasus, or not too far from there, I suppose
but the european (geographically) Y-I SNPs (Y-I2a1, I2a2, I1, seam to me very ancient in Europe, and it's there they encreased very dramatically - I have some difficulty to imagine "our" SNPs come here a few centuries ago! so Y-I is "european" for the most, having in mind that nothing is perpetual...
some Y-I2b and I2c (am I wrong in naming, it si changing so fast?), not too rare in N-E an surroundings, are found too in WC-Europe (Germany etc...) and the Y-I2a1b of Eastern Europe-Steppes seam to me linked to I-E or pseudo-I-E movements (Bronze Age)
let's wait the ancient DNA discoveries (it's not going too quickly!)

 

[Alan]

this is indeed a interesting topic and as you anthro inclined, I believe that this Haplogroup originated somewhere in the Near East and expanded during Neolithic period to Europe. And if you ask why today this Haplogroup is not that frequent anymore. Well probably because of the same reason why Haplogroup G2a which once almost dominated whole Neolithic Europe is in present Europe. Most probably replaced by J2 bearers.

 

[zanipolo]

I like that idea Anthro-inclined, but please let's not totally discard the Dagestan/Daghestan tribe, even at low numbers their diversity is remarkable, and they are considered to be an ancient sheltered population due to their mountainous surroundings. But we are still early in the hg I hunt so it's best to keep options on the table--like Balkans, Iran, etc.

Check the history of the Varna culture from 4500BC ( east bulgaria ), they surely could have brought G, I, R and other ydna markers through the balkans, through North italy, into southern france and northern Iberia via trade......trade brings migration.......this is what the scholars state.

 

[Nobody1]

at Zanipolo

No, the Varna culture has absolutely nothing to do with any Hg Y spread to North or West Europe, since the culture itself never spread West or North.
Varna was a distinct (Pre-Indo-European) culture of the East Balkans corresponding to Karanovo VI.
It was exclusively Black sea area, nowhere else.

And yes, Trade brings Migrations.

Varna was the first PRE-Indo-European culture that had extensive trade with the Indo-Europeans (Kurgan I) of the further east (Pontic-Caspian Steppe), and therefor prompted the Indo-European migration waves into Europe of Kurgan II and Kurgan III.

R1b is from the Neolithic (PRE-Indo-European) Linear Pottery Culture

http://rspb.royalsocietypublishing.org/content/early/2011/08/18/rspb.2011.1044.full

from the study:
"that the R-M269 haplogroup may have spread with the Neolithic, and more specifically with the Linearbandkeramik, a Neolithic agricultural industry that spread throughout northern Europe, from Hungary to France, around 7500 years ago." [5.500 BC]

Thats 1000 years before Varna and 2000 years before the Indo-European expansion/migration (Kurgan III); and a further 2000 years before the (proper) Indo-European Bronze age cultures of Europe, resulting into the Indo-European Keltic, Italic, Nordic, Illyrian, Thracian etc. complex.

 

[sparkey]

Hold your horses, this...

R1b is from the Neolithic (PRE-Indo-European) Linear Pottery Culture

http://rspb.royalsocietypublishing.org/content/early/2011/08/18/rspb.2011.1044.full

from the study:
"that the R-M269 haplogroup may have spread with the Neolithic, and more specifically with the Linearbandkeramik, a Neolithic agricultural industry that spread throughout northern Europe, from Hungary to France, around 7500 years ago." [5.500 BC]

...is speculative and very likely incorrect. We have a couple of ancient samples from LBK, one of which was G2a, and the other was some sort of F, but not R1b (Haak 2010). Perhaps even more telling, later pre-Chalcolithic Western and Central European samples have not turned up R1b either, most notably Treilles and La Pierre Fritte, both circa 3000 BCE, which between them turned up a lot of G2a and I2a.

Furthermore, you're taking Busby 2011 out of context. That paper doesn't agree that LBK spread R1b, it's just mentioning there that that was the position supported my Myers et al. Seriously, Busby 2011 is the paper famous for destroying the early-Neolithic-farmer hypothesis with a diversity analysis. Read this from the abstract:

Our analysis reveals no geographical trends in diversity, in contradiction to expectation under the Neolithic hypothesis, and suggests an alternative explanation for the apparent cline in diversity recently described.

I have my issues with the Busby 2011 paper, notably how they suggest that STR dating values are too young without any supporting evidence to back that up. But I think they're spot on with the diversity analysis.

 

[Nobody1]

at Sparkey

Thats exactly why i quoted Busby 2011, if i wanted to make it easy i would have just quoted Myres 2011 or Balaresque 2010.

Not only does Busby 2011 quote the conclusions of Myres 2011 and Belaresque 2010 (R1b being introduced via the Neolithic expansion), but it even Concludes himself:

"A recent analysis of radiocarbon dates of Neolithic sites across Europe [46] reveals that the spread of the Neolithic was by no means constant, and that several ‘centres of renewed expansion’ are visible across Europe, representing areas of colonization, three of which map intriguingly closely to the centres of the sub-haplogroups foci."

The only reason Busby 2011, is not all in favor (poss. even against) the Neolithic expansion theory of R-S269, is that it claims that there is no Correlation between S127 and xS127; something Balaresque 2010 has shown to be different.

As for Linear-Pottery, the studies of Myres and Balaresque do not claim that Linear Pottery spread R1b across Europe, the studies suggest that with Linear Pottery (earliest) began the spread across Europe. And neither Myres, Balaresque or even Busby claim that the Neolithic was a homogeneous expansion, ‘centres of renewed expansion’

 

[nordicwarrior]

...Varna was the first PRE-Indo-European culture that had extensive trade with the Indo-Europeans (Kurgan I) of the further east (Pontic-Caspian Steppe), and therefor prompted the Indo-European migration waves into Europe of Kurgan II and Kurgan III....Thats 1000 years before Varna and 2000 years before the Indo-European expansion/migration (Kurgan III); and a further 2000 years before the (proper) Indo-European Bronze age cultures of Europe, resulting into the Indo-European Keltic, Italic, Nordic, Illyrian, Thracian etc. complex.

Nobody, what's your opinion of Gobekli Tepe in Turkey? It beginnings stretch back to 11,000 BCE. This is a big site, and large portions remain buried. At some point GT has to factor into genetic movements.

 

[Nobody1]

at Nordicwarbler

I consider Gobekli Tepe to be just as interesting and mysterious as most other sites of the Fertile Crescent,
Interesting of course, because it was a Pre-Neolithic (hunter gatherer) religious site/settlement (transitioning to Neolithic agriculture) and mysterious in terms that it was, like Catal Huyuk or the Mureybet settlements simply abandoned.

Also the fact that Gobekli Tepe was Pre-Semitic as well as Pre-Indo-European, makes it interesting in connection with the the equally Non Semitic Sumerians and the Non Semitic (Pre-Indo-European) Hatti.
The entire History of the Fertile Crescent (Neolithic - Bronze age) is highly interesting, especially the vast trade links between Mesopotamia and the Harappan civ. of the Indus-valley. Both were later conquered and largely exploited by the Invading Indo-Europeans [Hittites and Aryans].