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Thread: Is the high Jewish frequency of hg G representative of the pre-Arabic Levant ?

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    Quote Originally Posted by Maciamo View Post
    Thanks for bringing up the facts that there is always slightly more boys than girls at birth and that this may be a natural way to counter male losses in wars. I wanted to mention it in my reply to Anthro-inclined, then got pressed up by the time yesterday and didn't.

    I recall seeing a study about 5 years ago which stated that R1a men in India (or was it Pakistan?) were more aggressive than men belonging to other haplogroups. Unfortunately I cannot find the article anymore, but it was an important step in establishing the reasons why R1a (and probably also R1b) expanded so successfully since the Bronze Age (and also in the European colonisation, if you think about it, as the colonising nations were mostly from the R1b fringe of Europe). My point here is that R1a and R1b might procreate slightly more boys because they have slightly higher testosterone, which leads them to become more aggressive and potentially also have a higher casualty rate than men in other societies. Celtic people have been known since ancient times to argue and fight with each others all the time, and this is still true in countries that remained the most Celtic culturally as well as genetically (namely Ireland, Wales and the Scottish Highlands). All have extremely high percentages of hg R1 (over 80%). Therefore I believe that this heightened aggressiveness/testosterone is directly linked with the slightly increased ratio of male births.
    I got a chuckle out of this Maciamo, I too think R1b dominant cultures are far less aggressive than those found in say the Middle East or Africa.

    And Anthro-inclined, Lebrok is correct on his description of y-DNA (or really any type of DNA) mutations. It's a blind, random process... but one that can nevertheless provide real benefits from time to time. I don't think R1b is a hyper-aggressive lineage. I think it's a rational, calm line compared to others. Maybe this is it's mutational advantage.

    It's allowed R1b cultures to build societies that allow those seeking warfare to find it, while leaving an inner core to "pollinate" flowers left unattended. Large populations favor efficient systems and networks over individual brute strength.

    But Lebrok, the thing about us building our own DNA hospitals, don't you think this is a process better left to nature?

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    Looks like western society has more women than men

    http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/List_of...s_by_sex_ratio
    Father's Mtdna H95a1
    Grandfather Mtdna T2b24
    Great Grandfather Mtdna T1a1e
    GMother paternal side YDna R1b-S8172
    Mother's YDna R1a-Z282

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    Quote Originally Posted by zanipolo View Post
    Looks like western society has more women than men

    http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/List_of...s_by_sex_ratio
    I don't think you read the data properly. All countries have more boys than girls at birth. Western societies have more females because women live longer than men. That's all.
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    Quote Originally Posted by nordicfoyer View Post
    I got a chuckle out of this Maciamo, I too think R1b dominant cultures are far less aggressive than those found in say the Middle East or Africa.
    Now yes, because Western societies are richer, more educated, and enjoy a period of unprecedented peace. Look at the last 2000 years and reconsider.

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    For those who doubt that Y-DNA has an influence on male fertility, sperm count, and gender bias, please refer to this post.

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    Quote Originally Posted by Maciamo View Post
    I don't think you read the data properly. All countries have more boys than girls at birth. Western societies have more females because women live longer than men. That's all.
    All do have more boys on birth.
    But in the top 5 are Georgia, Azerbaijan and Armenia.
    Last edited by Ivan; 25-02-13 at 08:32.

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    Quote Originally Posted by Maciamo View Post
    Now yes, because Western societies are richer, more educated, and enjoy a period of unprecedented peace. Look at the last 2000 years and reconsider.
    I have considered the past and present. Still hold the same opinion.

    R1b's number advantage is tied to it's structuring. Look to French and Scottish societies, or even the U.S. in it's earlier days (after the Revolutionary War). This haplogroup is hyper-efficient when viewed through the lense of genetic success.

    But I don't want you to think I am paying R1b too big of a compliment, I1 heavy societies have performed well also. If R1b has evolved the "rational" gene, then I1 has evolved the "justice" gene. Is it coincidence that we have the terms:

    Fair haired--describing light colored locks... then we have

    Fair weather--describing favorable conditions
    Fair treatment--describing equitable practices
    Fair and balanced--describing Fox News

    Ok, maybe the last one isn't a great example. But you catch my drift. Maybe rational thought thought and justice are attributes brought forth, or at least enhanced, by evolution.

    Maybe we're locked in a race to see who can be the most decent human being--that would be kind of cool. Gives a new slant on the term genetic evolution.
    Last edited by nordicfoyer; 25-02-13 at 03:32. Reason: add words

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    Quote Originally Posted by Ivan View Post
    All do have more boys on birth.
    But in the top 5 are Georgia, Azerbaijan and Armenia. And number of those that did not survive the age of 65 is considerably higher than in West-Europe.
    Countries that have very strong gender biases at birth nowadays are usually those where artificial gender selection is practised (i.e. pregnancies are terminated when it's a girl because the parents want a boy). China is particularly well-known for that because of the single child policy and because boys have always been favoured traditionally. The importance of male offspring is such in Chinese culture that even richer Chinese, like in Singapore, HK and Taiwan, keep practising boy selection. It is also very common in India. I don't know about the Caucasus, but it seems to be the same.

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    Quote Originally Posted by Maciamo View Post
    Countries that have very strong gender biases at birth nowadays are usually those where artificial gender selection is practised (i.e. pregnancies are terminated when it's a girl because the parents want a boy). China is particularly well-known for that because of the single child policy and because boys have always been favoured traditionally. The importance of male offspring is such in Chinese culture that even richer Chinese, like in Singapore, HK and Taiwan, keep practising boy selection. It is also very common in India. I don't know about the Caucasus, but it seems to be the same.
    Yes one child policy exist in overpopulated China, where this claim makes sense. There is nothing though, that I know of, that could be similar in the Caucasus. They live normal lives like most of us, have regular hospitals and childbirths.

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    Quote Originally Posted by Ivan View Post
    Yes one child policy exist in overpopulated China, where this claim makes sense. There is nothing though, that I know of, that could be similar in the Caucasus. They live normal lives like most of us, have regular hospitals and childbirths.
    Same in India, and yet it happens.

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    Quote Originally Posted by Maciamo View Post
    Same in India, and yet it happens.


    They actually live normal lives, closer to Central and Eastern Europe.
    Last edited by Ivan; 02-03-13 at 05:04. Reason: grammar

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    Quote Originally Posted by Ivan View Post
    Thanks for the information.

    It must hold some weight, since you had to prove your point, even in the example of this thread, where you and LeBrok apparently had to win an argument (presumably driven by the forces you have described). And you effectively proved it again, by showing us a need for domination over smaller groups, even in unproved (for now though), theories. I do respect a hint of aggressiveness as it conveys a good connection to your own ideas and thoughts. But above that I respect sense of reality, and calm strength, that usually comes after a long battle with your own aggression. This is what I liked about European groups. My opinion, I could be wrong off course, is that you should hold onto rational authority, which suits and compliments you best.

    To put it this way, the aggression you described is really more common throughout the ME (as seen in recent years), and there is a long history of such aggression. West in general looks a bit off the image you have described. My own experience is that of calm and kind types of western people. But then this can indicate otherwise.


    Nevertheless, courage, rationality, and morality are respected and praised and even more so in case of foreigners that show those qualities. The guest is sacred and protected by life in some of those cultures.

    I have a respect for the cultural and moral values of your group, as well as any proven in ancient battlefields. And honestly, I could hardly muster enough animosity, even if I tried, for a real argument.
    Interesting perspective Ivan. We might say that I represent how R1b is arguing.
    Be wary of people who tend to glorify the past, underestimate the present, and demonize the future.

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    Interesting perspective Ivan. We might say that I represent how R1b is arguing.

    Yes we might.
    Last edited by Ivan; 24-02-13 at 18:41.

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    Quote Originally Posted by Maciamo View Post
    Countries that have very strong gender biases at birth nowadays are usually those where artificial gender selection is practised (i.e. pregnancies are terminated when it's a girl because the parents want a boy). China is particularly well-known for that because of the single child policy and because boys have always been favoured traditionally. The importance of male offspring is such in Chinese culture that even richer Chinese, like in Singapore, HK and Taiwan, keep practising boy selection. It is also very common in India. I don't know about the Caucasus, but it seems to be the same.
    This comment contradicts what you say previously on sex-ratio.
    Are you only counting births of children only and not the conceived sex of children during pregnancies?,

    since China and India practice termination of females, then this termination of females happens to a high percentage while the women is pregnant, these numbers HAVE to count in the sex-ratio of male and female or else the data we speak of is a farce and a manipulation of stats.

    Since China and India's population is nearly a third of the world population, then stats for these areas can tilt the scales one way or the other

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    There was a male preference throughout history. Why recently the British monarchy wanted a change to have the first child born to be the monarch regardless of sex. Henry VIII had so many wives because he was seeking a male heir. Probably he had syphilis as so many of his babies died. Also the Sarmations sold their daughters to the highest bidder. In agricultural pastoral, nomadic hunter-gatherer societies males were tasked with dangerous,high-risk missions e.g. hunting for meat or climbing high trees for honey, fighting off invaders or predators, etc. Being stronger and bigger also allowed them to dominate. This is especially true with mammals but with reptiles, dinosaurs, insects it is the reverse. The biggest meanest theropod or tyrannosaurus rex was a female like the skeleton of the one in Chicago - a 40-foot ferocious female terror.
    Last edited by oriental; 27-02-13 at 00:58.

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    Quote Originally Posted by sparkey View Post
    Rather than speculating about Jews, it may be more useful to compare Lebanese communities, which we have good studies about, like here.

    Comparing Maronites (presumably more representative of the pre-Arab Levant than most populations) and Lebanese Muslims (presumably having some Arab influence) gives the following haplogroup shifts:

    Maronite->Muslim
    E1b: +5%
    G: +3% (!)
    I: -2%
    J1: +3%
    J2: -8%
    L: -2%
    R: 0%
    T: 0%

    I don't think I've seen evidence that the ancient Levant had substantial G. I'd continue with the "expansion within the diaspora" hypothesis, personally.
    The Maronites are only one small community in the Levant. The data I cited for the Levant includes all the studies I know for Syria, Lebanon, Palestine and Jordan. The average for hg G is 3.5% for both Muslims and Christians.

    We will see what proportion of G turns up in future ancient DNA samples from the Near East.

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    I Don't Know If This Is Of Any Use To Anyone, But There Is A Group Of People In Lebanon, Israel And Syria Known As The Druze, They Adhere To An Abrahamic Religion Different From Judaism, Christianity, And Islam. They Are Believe To Represent Genetically An Ancient Population In The Middle East, Haplogroup G reaches a frequency of 10% in the Israeli population, so maybe this can help the theory that G is an ancient remnant.

    https://sites.google.com/site/haplog...l-distribution

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    Europe got its name from the Phoenicians:

    Europa Legend:

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    http://www.phoenician.org/europa_legend.htm

    After the Sea Peoples phenomenon the Phoenicians played a big role in European development.

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    Quote Originally Posted by Anthro-inclined View Post
    I Don't Know If This Is Of Any Use To Anyone, But There Is A Group Of People In Lebanon, Israel And Syria Known As The Druze, They Adhere To An Abrahamic Religion Different From Judaism, Christianity, And Islam. They Are Believe To Represent Genetically An Ancient Population In The Middle East, Haplogroup G reaches a frequency of 10% in the Israeli population, so maybe this can help the theory that G is an ancient remnant.

    https://sites.google.com/site/haplog...l-distribution
    The Druze are somewhat of an isolate population whose origin is a bit difficult to ascertain due to their isolation. I'm not sure how good of a representation of the ancient Levant they are. Their own origin stories tell of Persian origins, and they may drift a little closer to Persians than other Levantines do, but they aren't anything like a bridge between Levantines and Persians on genetic maps.

    Anyway, regarding their high levels of G, Ted Kandell has:

    Quote Originally Posted by Ted Kandell
    The Druze of the Galilee have a high percentage of G2a, >20%, but the Druze of Lebanon have only one single G and he is clearly G1 (probably G1a). The Druze G2a haplotypes are very likely to be G2a4 of the "Northwest Arabian" variety.
    As far as I can tell, that means that there's an important expansion of a possibly foreign G haplotype within the Druze of Israel, but otherwise G isn't a typical Druze haplogroup.

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    Quote Originally Posted by sparkey View Post
    The Druze are somewhat of an isolate population whose origin is a bit difficult to ascertain due to their isolation. I'm not sure how good of a representation of the ancient Levant they are. Their own origin stories tell of Persian origins, and they may drift a little closer to Persians than other Levantines do, but they aren't anything like a bridge between Levantines and Persians on genetic maps.

    Anyway, regarding their high levels of G, Ted Kandell has:



    As far as I can tell, that means that there's an important expansion of a possibly foreign G haplotype within the Druze of Israel, but otherwise G isn't a typical Druze haplogroup.
    I Would Have To Agree, Since I Have Less Knowledge, On Their Origins. However Id Like To Also Add That The Druze Have Tales That Claim That Their Origin In The Middle East Goes Back For Tens Of Thousands Of Years, But To Further Your Point On A Recent Origin For The Druze Is That Haplogroup L Makes Up 35% Of Their Y DNA, Which Is South Asian In Origin. Thought Id Just Add That, But Thanks For The Feedback To.

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    Quote Originally Posted by Maciamo View Post
    I don't know about the Caucasus, but it seems to be the same.
    While in general there is a slight bias for wishing to have male offspring as heirs and warriors in Caucasian mentality, selective abortion is totally out of question due to religion and general traditional culture.

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    Quote Originally Posted by zanipolo View Post
    We all realise , ( I hope we do ) that ALL humans are conceived as females and the creation of a male begins after 6 weeks of pregnancy.
    http://www.examiner.com/article/we-r...-females-first
    Do you mean that if we'd test a 3 weeks old fetus it'd have XX chromosomes even if it would develop in male afterwards?

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    Quote Originally Posted by Anthro-inclined View Post
    I Would Have To Agree, Since I Have Less Knowledge, On Their Origins. However Id Like To Also Add That The Druze Have Tales That Claim That Their Origin In The Middle East Goes Back For Tens Of Thousands Of Years, But To Further Your Point On A Recent Origin For The Druze Is That Haplogroup L Makes Up 35% Of Their Y DNA, Which Is South Asian In Origin. Thought Id Just Add That, But Thanks For The Feedback To.
    The 35% figure came from a study that only sampled 20 Israeli Druze. The new gold standard for Druze sampling is Shlush 2008, which had a much larger sample of Israeli Druze, and found only 5%, with the frequencies increasing near Mt Carmel. Lebanese Druze from the same study had 8% L, which is roughly the same as the Maronites, who also have high levels relative to other Lebanese. That makes me think that L was higher in the ancient Levant, but probably nothing like 35% levels.

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    Quote Originally Posted by sparkey View Post
    The 35% figure came from a study that only sampled 20 Israeli Druze. The new gold standard for Druze sampling is Shlush 2008, which had a much larger sample of Israeli Druze, and found only 5%, with the frequencies increasing near Mt Carmel. Lebanese Druze from the same study had 8% L, which is roughly the same as the Maronites, who also have high levels relative to other Lebanese. That makes me think that L was higher in the ancient Levant, but probably nothing like 35% levels.
    Interesting, Makes Sense That 35% Is Ridiculous Because Its Highest Regional Averages Are 25% In South Pakistan And The Himalyas, But Other Than Its High Distribution In The Druze And Other Alleged Ancient Populations, What Makes You Believe That It Has An Ancient Mid East Origin, As It Formed In South Asia And Seems To Be Mostly Isolated There. Also At What Time Do You Think L Arrived In The Middle East.

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    Quote Originally Posted by Anthro-inclined View Post
    Interesting, Makes Sense That 35% Is Ridiculous Because Its Highest Regional Averages Are 25% In South Pakistan And The Himalyas, But Other Than Its High Distribution In The Druze And Other Alleged Ancient Populations, What Makes You Believe That It Has An Ancient Mid East Origin, As It Formed In South Asia And Seems To Be Mostly Isolated There. Also At What Time Do You Think L Arrived In The Middle East.
    You're right, I shouldn't be so loose with terms like "ancient." All that a relatively high frequency of L in both Maronites and Druze compared to regional Muslims indicates is that it may have been relatively high pre-Arab Conquest... not necessarily all that ancient. I'd need to look at subclade diversity to give a better date.

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