Eupedia Forums
Site NavigationEupedia Top > Eupedia Forum & Japan Forum
Results 1 to 19 of 19

Thread: Y Chromosomes of Corded Ware at Wroclaw-Jagodno (SW Poland)

  1. #1
    Regular Member Achievements:
    Veteran5000 Experience Points

    Join Date
    12-11-12
    Posts
    21
    Points
    5,902
    Level
    22
    Points: 5,902, Level: 22
    Level completed: 71%, Points required for next Level: 148
    Overall activity: 0%


    Country: United States



    Y Chromosomes of Corded Ware at Wroclaw-Jagodno (SW Poland)

    Two teeth coming from fossil human skeletons were examined in the Molecular Technology Institute of Forensic Medicine Department, Wroclaw Medical University. It was stated that both teeth came from two men on the basis of the gene of amelogenin variants study. Determining polymorphisms of SNP type from chromosome Y resulted in categorizing skeleton from grave no. 1 with very high probability into haplogroup G, whereas skeleton from grave no. 2 with very high probability into one of three haplogroups J, I or E.

    Bohdan Gworys et al.
    sciencedirect.com/science/article/pii/S0305440313000459

  2. #2
    Advisor Achievements:
    Three FriendsVeteranTagger First Class50000 Experience PointsRecommendation First Class
    Awards:
    Discussion Ender
    LeBrok's Avatar
    Join Date
    18-11-09
    Location
    Calgary
    Posts
    10,329
    Points
    110,111
    Level
    100
    Points: 110,111, Level: 100
    Level completed: 0%, Points required for next Level: 0
    Overall activity: 0%

    Y-DNA haplogroup
    R1b Z2109
    MtDNA haplogroup
    H1c

    Ethnic group
    Citizen of the world
    Country: Canada-Alberta



    Thanks, great find. Any idea of carbon dating of these teeth?
    Be wary of people who tend to glorify the past, underestimate the present, and demonize the future.

  3. #3
    Regular Member Achievements:
    OverdriveVeteran10000 Experience Points

    Join Date
    19-04-12
    Posts
    384
    Points
    10,417
    Level
    30
    Points: 10,417, Level: 30
    Level completed: 78%, Points required for next Level: 133
    Overall activity: 0%


    Country: Finland



    Very surprised to say the least.
    I expected some R1a and we have this.

  4. #4
    Satyavrata Achievements:
    Three FriendsRecommendation First ClassVeteran50000 Experience PointsTagger First Class
    Maciamo's Avatar
    Join Date
    17-07-02
    Location
    Lothier
    Posts
    8,692
    Points
    689,607
    Level
    100
    Points: 689,607, Level: 100
    Level completed: 0%, Points required for next Level: 0
    Overall activity: 10.0%


    Ethnic group
    Italo-celto-germanic
    Country: Belgium - Brussels



    3 out of 3 members found this post helpful.
    Quote Originally Posted by LeBrok View Post
    Thanks, great find. Any idea of carbon dating of these teeth?
    Jean Manco gives the age of 2800 BCE on her list of ancient Eurasian DNA. That would be the very onset of the Corded Ware Culture in south-west Poland, probably juxtaposing with the Neolithic Globular Amphora culture. These two samples are far more likely men from that latter Neolithic culture than the Corded Ware newcomers. The abstract is ambiguous about the culture to which the skeletons belong.

    Quote Originally Posted by Gworys et al.
    The aim of this study is to estimate the influence of general environmental conditions on human organism at the final stage of the Neolithic period – in the Corded Ware culture.
    I think we are dealing with a transition period that starts showing influence of the expanding Corded Ware culture, but that is still a Neolithic culture.
    My book selection---Follow me on Facebook and Twitter --- My profile on Academia.edu and on ResearchGate ----Check Wa-pedia's Japan Guide
    ----------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------
    "What is the use of living, if it be not to strive for noble causes and to make this muddled world a better place for those who will live in it after we are gone?", Winston Churchill.

  5. #5
    Regular Member Achievements:
    1000 Experience Points1 year registered
    Anthro-inclined's Avatar
    Join Date
    13-11-12
    Location
    Toronto
    Posts
    226
    Points
    2,342
    Level
    13
    Points: 2,342, Level: 13
    Level completed: 64%, Points required for next Level: 108
    Overall activity: 3.0%


    Country: Canada



    Yet Another Example Of Haplogroup G's Dominance In Neolithic Europe. As For The Second Skeleton, It Seems Likely That Its I As J Is Not Prevelent In Poland And Likely Entered Europe Shortly Before This, And If It Was E Wouldnt They Be Able To Identify The UEP That Characterizes DE Descendents.

  6. #6
    Satyavrata Achievements:
    Three FriendsRecommendation First ClassVeteran50000 Experience PointsTagger First Class
    Maciamo's Avatar
    Join Date
    17-07-02
    Location
    Lothier
    Posts
    8,692
    Points
    689,607
    Level
    100
    Points: 689,607, Level: 100
    Level completed: 0%, Points required for next Level: 0
    Overall activity: 10.0%


    Ethnic group
    Italo-celto-germanic
    Country: Belgium - Brussels



    Quote Originally Posted by Anthro-inclined View Post
    Yet Another Example Of Haplogroup G's Dominance In Neolithic Europe. As For The Second Skeleton, It Seems Likely That Its I As J Is Not Prevelent In Poland And Likely Entered Europe Shortly Before This, And If It Was E Wouldnt They Be Able To Identify The UEP That Characterizes DE Descendents.
    If it is I, it is most likely the Eastern European I2a1. My hypothesis is that Neolithic farming was brought to the Balkans by immigrants from the Near East, but that neighbouring indigenous I2a1 populations quickly picked up the new technologies or merged with the newcomers, so that cultures that spread north of the Danube, like the Cucuteni-Trypolye, but also the Globular Amphora, were probably in large part composed of I2a1 lineages.

    I don't see why the sample couldn't be J. G2a is rare in Poland today too. Most of the European J1, as sparse as it is now, is almost certainly of Neolithic origin. J2 is still unclear.

    So my guess is either I2a1 or J1 as the most likely candidates.

  7. #7
    Regular Member Achievements:
    1000 Experience Points1 year registered
    Anthro-inclined's Avatar
    Join Date
    13-11-12
    Location
    Toronto
    Posts
    226
    Points
    2,342
    Level
    13
    Points: 2,342, Level: 13
    Level completed: 64%, Points required for next Level: 108
    Overall activity: 3.0%


    Country: Canada



    1 out of 1 members found this post helpful.
    Quote Originally Posted by Maciamo View Post
    If it is I, it is most likely the Eastern European I2a1. My hypothesis is that Neolithic farming was brought to the Balkans by immigrants from the Near East, but that neighbouring indigenous I2a1 populations quickly picked up the new technologies or merged with the newcomers, so that cultures that spread north of the Danube, like the Cucuteni-Trypolye, but also the Globular Amphora, were probably in large part composed of I2a1 lineages.
    This to me also seems like the most plausible result of the findings.

    Quote Originally Posted by Maciamo View Post
    I don't see why the sample couldn't be J. G2a is rare in Poland today too. Most of the European J1, as sparse as it is now, is almost certainly of Neolithic origin. J2 is still unclear.

    So my guess is either I2a1 or J1 as the most likely candidates.
    I don't think J1 or J2 will be uncovered, because i haven't seen any ancient DNA that would support J in this area, at such an early point. But rather (I think) its presence in Poland is due to genetic drift, and not correlated with any particular cultural migration.
    Also, i thought you would have agreed with it not being J, as you reference in this migration map from 4500 to 5000 YBP, you say otherwise about the main HG's within the corded ware culture. As you list I,G and even E, but not any J.


  8. #8
    Elite member Achievements:
    Three FriendsVeteran25000 Experience Points

    Join Date
    25-10-11
    Location
    Brittany
    Age
    70
    Posts
    4,350
    Points
    36,287
    Level
    58
    Points: 36,287, Level: 58
    Level completed: 70%, Points required for next Level: 363
    Overall activity: 17.0%

    Y-DNA haplogroup
    R1b - L21/S145*
    MtDNA haplogroup
    H3c

    Ethnic group
    more celtic
    Country: France



    Quote Originally Posted by Anthro-inclined View Post
    This to me also seems like the most plausible result of the findings.


    I don't think J1 or J2 will be uncovered, because i haven't seen any ancient DNA that would support J in this area, at such an early point. But rather (I think) its presence in Poland is due to genetic drift, and not correlated with any particular cultural migration.
    Also, i thought you would have agreed with it not being J, as you reference in this migration map from 4500 to 5000 YBP, you say otherwise about the main HG's within the corded ware culture. As you list I,G and even E, but not any J.

    its presence in Poland is due to genetic drift
    what are you meaning saying that??? drift upon which HG? -
    or maybe are you meaning an individual introduction)
    sorry... I'm confused

  9. #9
    Elite member Achievements:
    Three FriendsVeteran25000 Experience Points

    Join Date
    25-10-11
    Location
    Brittany
    Age
    70
    Posts
    4,350
    Points
    36,287
    Level
    58
    Points: 36,287, Level: 58
    Level completed: 70%, Points required for next Level: 363
    Overall activity: 17.0%

    Y-DNA haplogroup
    R1b - L21/S145*
    MtDNA haplogroup
    H3c

    Ethnic group
    more celtic
    Country: France



    all that is still very scarce and doesn't prove anything - we need more and more ancient DNA in every site - (I take drugs to temper my upset nerves and my impatience: by chance I have some good wine at home!) -
    concerning northern neolithic, I agree Y-I2a1 would have been part of the game, but I don't forget y-E1b-V13 too and maritime new waves of megalithers on coasts (Y-J1? + some Y-R1b??? these last ones less sure) - all that upon a Y-I1 and I1a2 stuff? only more data can break confusion: it is mathematical

  10. #10
    Regular Member Achievements:
    1000 Experience Points1 year registered
    Anthro-inclined's Avatar
    Join Date
    13-11-12
    Location
    Toronto
    Posts
    226
    Points
    2,342
    Level
    13
    Points: 2,342, Level: 13
    Level completed: 64%, Points required for next Level: 108
    Overall activity: 3.0%


    Country: Canada



    My Mistake Incorrect Terminology On Genetic Drift. Probably Just Entered By Way Of Southern Europe By Small Migrations, I See No Direct Evidence Of A Major Late Neolithic Migration Of J Into This Area, As It Seems That Its Entry Is Most Likely More Recently.

  11. #11
    Satyavrata Achievements:
    Three FriendsRecommendation First ClassVeteran50000 Experience PointsTagger First Class
    Maciamo's Avatar
    Join Date
    17-07-02
    Location
    Lothier
    Posts
    8,692
    Points
    689,607
    Level
    100
    Points: 689,607, Level: 100
    Level completed: 0%, Points required for next Level: 0
    Overall activity: 10.0%


    Ethnic group
    Italo-celto-germanic
    Country: Belgium - Brussels



    1 out of 1 members found this post helpful.
    Quote Originally Posted by Anthro-inclined View Post
    I don't think J1 or J2 will be uncovered, because i haven't seen any ancient DNA that would support J in this area, at such an early point. But rather (I think) its presence in Poland is due to genetic drift, and not correlated with any particular cultural migration.
    Also, i thought you would have agreed with it not being J, as you reference in this migration map from 4500 to 5000 YBP, you say otherwise about the main HG's within the corded ware culture. As you list I,G and even E, but not any J.
    I also think that I2a1 is more likely than J. All I am saying is that J is not impossible, even if J people only made up a tiny fraction of Neolithic farmers in Eastern Europe.

  12. #12
    Regular Member Achievements:
    1000 Experience Points1 year registered
    Anthro-inclined's Avatar
    Join Date
    13-11-12
    Location
    Toronto
    Posts
    226
    Points
    2,342
    Level
    13
    Points: 2,342, Level: 13
    Level completed: 64%, Points required for next Level: 108
    Overall activity: 3.0%


    Country: Canada



    Quote Originally Posted by Maciamo View Post
    I also think that I2a1 is more likely than J. All I am saying is that J is not impossible, even if J people only made up a tiny fraction of Neolithic farmers in Eastern Europe.
    I Agree, As Anything Is Possible, And Much Like You I Think That I Is Most Likely To Be Uncovered But Understand That It Cannot Be A Certainty. All I Was Trying To State In The Intial Post Was That It Seems That The Probability Of It Turning Out To Be J Is Highly Unlikely.

  13. #13
    Elite member Achievements:
    VeteranThree FriendsRecommendation Second Class25000 Experience Points
    Awards:
    User with most referrers

    Join Date
    14-11-10
    Posts
    2,504
    Points
    25,862
    Level
    49
    Points: 25,862, Level: 49
    Level completed: 32%, Points required for next Level: 688
    Overall activity: 13.0%

    Y-DNA haplogroup
    R1a1a1
    MtDNA haplogroup
    HV2a1 +G13708A

    Ethnic group
    Kurdish
    Country: Germany



    0 out of 1 members found this post helpful.
    Great findings, but the question for me now is, what does it say about the Corded Ware = Indo European connection some people believe.

  14. #14
    Satyavrata Achievements:
    Three FriendsRecommendation First ClassVeteran50000 Experience PointsTagger First Class
    Maciamo's Avatar
    Join Date
    17-07-02
    Location
    Lothier
    Posts
    8,692
    Points
    689,607
    Level
    100
    Points: 689,607, Level: 100
    Level completed: 0%, Points required for next Level: 0
    Overall activity: 10.0%


    Ethnic group
    Italo-celto-germanic
    Country: Belgium - Brussels



    Quote Originally Posted by Alan View Post
    Great findings, but the question for me now is, what does it say about the Corded Ware = Indo European connection some people believe.
    These are pre-Corded Ware inhabitants, so nothing. We already had R1a from later Corded Ware sites.

  15. #15
    Regular Member Achievements:
    Veteran1000 Experience Points
    martinmkp's Avatar
    Join Date
    07-03-13
    Location
    Austria
    Posts
    38
    Points
    4,920
    Level
    20
    Points: 4,920, Level: 20
    Level completed: 68%, Points required for next Level: 130
    Overall activity: 0%

    Y-DNA haplogroup
    R1b L2
    MtDNA haplogroup
    HV0e

    Ethnic group
    Central European
    Country: Slovakia



    1 out of 1 members found this post helpful.
    The study is not so surprising, although we would like to expect R1a. But, I suppose at that time several Y-DNA from an early neolithic and late Neolithic worked side by side. I would not be surprised finding some traces of G even in later era. We can not see the Corded Ware as simply majority R1a (R1b) everywhere.

    This study seems to be significant toward researchers - not making simple results on several studies of ancient DNA, not simplyfying, not see an ancient populations as a majority one or two Y-DNA haplogroups.

    I think the common mistake is to assemble the Corded Ware with R1a (although prevalent for sure) - but for all region. It does not work at such a vast territory. The same case is Bell Beaker - I think Atlantic, Pyreneaen or German Plain Bell beakers could very easily be of different Y-DNA at one time, because of constant flow of genes south - north direction and intermixing with the previous populations.

    The excellent example is Kromsdorf (R1b) - it absolutely does not mean that it is Bell Beaker common feature...

    Also, very important is the place of finds. In this case (Wroclaw - Jagodno) it could be the mixture zone between new R1a and older populations at that time (-2800/-2600). Wroclaw - Jagodno is on the highway migration routes, but not far from the Northern Czech Mountains, which could naturally slow the migration flow of new inhabitants between Elbe and Dnieper region.

  16. #16
    Regular Member Achievements:
    Overdrive1000 Experience Points3 months registered
    Fire Haired's Avatar
    Join Date
    24-06-13
    Posts
    689
    Points
    4,121
    Level
    18
    Points: 4,121, Level: 18
    Level completed: 68%, Points required for next Level: 129
    Overall activity: 42.0%

    Y-DNA haplogroup
    R1b Df27(Spain)
    MtDNA haplogroup
    U5b2a2(Prussia)

    Ethnic group
    Celto-Germanic, Latino(~6%)
    Country: USA - California



    the G was almost defintley G2a probably subclade G2a3 the I/J/E was almost defintley I probably I2a1b

  17. #17
    Regular Member Achievements:
    OverdriveVeteran10000 Experience Points
    zanipolo's Avatar
    Join Date
    22-03-11
    Posts
    2,073
    Points
    22,792
    Level
    46
    Points: 22,792, Level: 46
    Level completed: 25%, Points required for next Level: 758
    Overall activity: 0%

    Y-DNA haplogroup
    T1a2 - Z19945
    MtDNA haplogroup
    K1a4o

    Ethnic group
    Down Under
    Country: Australia



    Quote Originally Posted by Fire Haired View Post
    the G was almost defintley G2a probably subclade G2a3 the I/J/E was almost defintley I probably I2a1b
    G2a4 is in majority in the alps...for northern Italy it would be a mix with G2a3
    Father's Mtdna H95a1
    Grandfather Mtdna T2b24
    Great Grandfather Mtdna T1a1e
    GMother paternal side YDna R1b-S8172
    Mother's YDna R1a-Z282

  18. #18
    Regular Member Achievements:
    Tagger Second ClassVeteran5000 Experience Points
    nordicquarreler's Avatar
    Join Date
    30-05-13
    Posts
    351
    Points
    5,638
    Level
    22
    Points: 5,638, Level: 22
    Level completed: 18%, Points required for next Level: 412
    Overall activity: 0%

    Y-DNA haplogroup
    I1 (M253)
    MtDNA haplogroup
    H

    Ethnic group
    European mix
    Country: United States



    Quote Originally Posted by Maciamo View Post
    ...If it is I, it is most likely the Eastern European I2a1....so that cultures that spread north of the Danube...were probably in large part composed of I2a1 lineages.
    I guess I should crumple up all the I1 maps because they apparently didn't make it very far North. Sarcasm off.

    My guess on the sample in question would be AT LEAST equal chances I1 to I2a1. And I would have J1 pegged at 2% chance or less. (Only because almost anything is possible so you do have to allow for statistical outliers).

  19. #19
    Regular Member Achievements:
    3 months registered1000 Experience Points

    Join Date
    13-07-14
    Posts
    309
    Points
    2,363
    Level
    13
    Points: 2,363, Level: 13
    Level completed: 72%, Points required for next Level: 87
    Overall activity: 0%


    Country: Russian Federation



    It is interesting that people of Globular Amphora culture had haplogroup G (most possibly G2a) .
    Globular Amphoras were found in Ukrainian and Russian Steppe regions in about 4900-4300 years ago.
    Also they came to Caucasus the Kuban-Terskaya culture( Кубано-терская культура ) in Ossetia Kabarda and Stavropol krai is the eastern variant of Globular Amphora culture.
    In their path they destroyed Cucuteni-Trypillian Yamna and Maykop cultures, and pushed out the Kuro-Araxes culture towards northern Anatolia.
    After that new cultures were born in the Steppes.
    Novosvobodnaya culture was a mix of Globular Amphora and Maykop cultures.
    And Catacomb culture have some similarities to Globular Amphora culture.
    Last edited by Robert6; 26-07-14 at 22:27.

Posting Permissions

  • You may not post new threads
  • You may not post replies
  • You may not post attachments
  • You may not edit your posts
  •