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Thread: Ancient Italic People

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    It would seem that somehow bull worshipping cultures that originated in Mesopotamia spread towards western Anatolia and first entered Europe by landing at Crete. From here some groups would reach Iberia. It's like J2a migrated from Chatal Hoyuk towards Crete and from there to parts of Italy.

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    There is a direct link to this, considering the main paternal component on Crete is J with 37% of which 25% is J2a M-410, most of the other rare clades developed later on Crete, but such a high clade presence of J2a is indicative of a first migration wave of people's from Anatolia directly to Crete. In fact, to most people's surprise, E-V13 a main Greek marker, albeit any and all E3b in it's totality is very rare on Crete, even R1b is more frequent, indicative of a later minor migration of people's to Crete.

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    Quote Originally Posted by Diviacus View Post
    Do you really believe it, or do you think it's a myth ?
    Of course it's a myth. Some myths have a kernel of truth, of course, unlike the one that Caesar put about that he was descended from Venus.

    Whether this one does I have no idea. How could it ever be proved? I suppose an attempt could be made to try to date the founding of Rome and see if it even corresponds to the archaeological level that might be attributed to the "Trojan War", but even that wouldn't be proof.

    Great story, though, certainly miles above most stories put about by "new" people to get a little reflected glory.

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    Quote Originally Posted by Angela View Post
    Of course it's a myth. Some myths have a kernel of truth, of course, unlike the one that Caesar put about that he was descended from Venus.
    Whether this one does I have no idea. How could it ever be proved? I suppose an attempt could be made to try to date the founding of Rome and see if it even corresponds to the archaeological level that might be attributed to the "Trojan War", but even that wouldn't be proof.
    Great story, though, certainly miles above most stories put about by "new" people to get a little reflected glory.
    Yes, we won't have ever a proof, but so many studies have been made on that with an unanimous opinion that it's only a myth, so we have to consider it only as a myth.

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    Quote Originally Posted by autochthon View Post
    One tool to get a sense of the diversity in Italy is to look at the languages spoken there during the iron age. Even if language does not always map to ethnic identity, it's still a useful tool. To name a few (I am taking this mostly from Mallory):


    Ligurian (Ligures, IE, possibly Celtic)
    Lepontic (IE, Celtic)
    Etruscan (Tyrsenian, non-IE)
    Raetic (also thought to be Tyrsenian and related to Etruscan)
    Umbrian (Umbri, related to Oscan)
    Oscan (Sabines, Aurunci, Sidicini, Ausones)
    Massapic (Iapyges, Dauni, Peucetii; possibly related to Illyrian)
    N. Picene (undeciphered)
    S. Picene (probably IE)
    Venetic (IE, centum language, classification debatable)
    Latin (closely related to Faliscan)
    Faliscan (Falisci, closely related to Latin)


    What this suggests is two things:


    1. The presence of a neolithic Tyrsenian substrate; of course how extensive or homogeneous this was remains unknown. There could have been multiple non-IE peoples on the peninsula long before the arrival of the first Indo-Europeans. It would be interesting to know what hg(s) correspond to the Tyrsenians.


    2. What looks like multiple waves of Indo-European diffusion, similar to what happened in Greece, and quite a lot of diversity even within the IE languages on the peninsula.


    And of course this leaves out Sicily and all the later influences (Greek, Punic, Arab, Norman, Lombard, etc.)
    As to number 1: There is quite a bit of evidence that the Neolithic that arrived in the south, from the area of Albania, for example, was different from that in the north, with the northern Italian Neolithic still retaining some interest in supplementing their diet with hunting, which the Neolithics in southern Italy by and large were not doing. That might indicate slightly different streams of the Neolithic, although of course, the south might have been over-hunted as well.

    I would agree with number 2.

    As for number 3,the Greek impact is clear. However, in my opinion, any Phoenician or Carthaginian impact would have been minor. The Phoenicians were traders who set up emporia; I'm not aware of any proof that they set up any colonies in Italy that would have included substantial numbers of colonists, unlike the Greeks for instance. There is a study of southern France that proves that point and might apply to Italy for comparison purposes.

    The Normans were a very small group of men, mercenaries really. As members of an elite, (a mixed Scandinavian/Gallic group) they might indeed have left traces in the y dna, but autosomally, their contribution would basically have vanished, in my opinion. Btw, the area in France where the "Vikings" settled, while it does have some U-152, is higher, I think, in L-21, which hasn't shown up in northwestern Sicily to my recollection. That isn't altogether surprising, as the "Normans" were formed by a combination of Scandinavian men and French women. Some local men, Bretons, for example, certainly formed the contingent that went to England, but perhaps there weren't that many of them among the group that went to Sicily. I'll check my books.

    The "Lombards" who were, to be precise, northern Italians from Lombardia, Piemonte, Liguria and other northern Italian areas, do represent a "folk" movement of peoples, a movement which has had the greatest impact, in my opinion, on the Sicilian genome in more recent times. Whole towns in the interior were established for them, towns which had been depopulated of Muslim Sicilians.

    The "Arabs" didn't invade Sicily. They were Berbers, initially mainly from nearby Tunisia, although as in any invasions of this type you had adventurers from other areas of the Muslim world. Their presence can be traced most easily via the E-M81 clade, I believe, and perhaps the North African clade of J1 as a minority component, and it is surprising small considering all that has been written and said about the "Moorish" influence on Sicily. One could also, of course, add in some of the other clades of "E", although not E-V13, and even with some of the other "E" clades, you would have to get down to the sub-clade level and date the subclades to get a handle on whether they fit the time period, or are just as likely to have come with the Neolithic or the Bronze Age. Another thing that has to be taken into consideration is that the Normans and later Frederick II, did their own version of ethnic cleansing in Sicily. As with other such claims, I doubt it was as complete as they claimed, but that it happened is irrefutable.

    There is a wonderful book about this whole period called A History of Muslim Sicily, by Leonard C. Chiarelli. In it, there is a poem by an exiled Muslim Sicilian:

    "My hands are empty, but my eyes are filled with your memories, Sicily".

    I highly recommend the book.

    Ed. The "Moorish" invaders of Sicily were *mostly* so far as can be determined, North African Berbers, although there were definitely Arabs amongst them; in fact, some of the power struggles on the island can be traced to differences between these two groups.
    Last edited by Angela; 28-09-13 at 22:35.

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    The Enotrians were led by Oentorus son of Lycaon son of Pelasgus; the Enotrians,Peucetians,Daunians,Messapians were PELaSGIANS, the Achaean Greeks that colonized Calabria were PELaSGIANS the Ionians and Aeolians were PElASGIANS the Etruscans were PELASGIaNS

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    The Ancestor's of some of today's east Sicilians, Sardinians and Tuscans (in ancient times anyways) were of the same race as the Palestinians; all pelasgians sea people's.

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    Quote Originally Posted by adamo View Post
    The Ancestor's of some of today's east Sicilians, Sardinians and Tuscans (in ancient times anyways) were of the same race as the Palestinians; all pelasgians sea people's.

    Just generally, the ancestors of today's east Sicilians Sardinians and Tuscans can be found all over Europe and the Near East and the same can be said for any group in Europe, although the relative percentages by area may be different. In terms of the Sea People in particular, was there a study that showed the exact origin of the Sea Peoples? Is there some test somewhere of the dna of the Sea Peoples of which I'm unaware?

    Also, what "race" precisely are the Palestinians? The Palestinian ethnogenesis is a very recent one from everything I've read. There is documented movement of tribes from the south during the Islamic era, which may have brought with them, or augmented through the Arabic slave trade, the SSA component in them, a component that is much smaller in the Christian Levantines who mixed less with the Islamic newcomers, and which probably also changed the proportion of J1 and J2 in the area and within the religious groups.
    See: http://www.plosgenetics.org/article/...l.pgen.1003316


    To take only the people of Sardinia as an example, they bear the closest resemblance, among European populations, to Oetzi and Gok 4, who are Neolithic Europeans. They are a mixture of Mediterranean and a small minority of S.W. Asian which may have been present since the Neolithic, (as is clear in every dodecad analysis of them) and some "North European" which came, I believe, with perhaps some admixture with more northerly Mesolithic hunter gatherers, as well as perhaps with later migrants from the Italian peninsula. It's true that they have, in Globe 13, for example, some West Asian, but it is extremely minor. The S.W.Asian level is about the same as Oetzi's.

    See: Globe 13 Autosomal Spreadsheet, from which I took the following numbers.
    https://docs.google.com/spreadsheet/...tUE9kaUE#gid=2

    Sardinians:
    Med 71
    W.Asian 4
    S.W.Asian 8.7
    Paleo African .1
    N.Euro 16.1
    All other clusters O

    Palestinians:
    Med 25.6
    W.Asian 29.2
    S.W.Asian 36.4
    S.Asian .6
    Paleo African .1
    W.African 2.7
    E.African 4.5
    N.Europe .7

    I don't see any identity between these people. Which clusters precisely are you associating with the Sea Peoples? Which modern group bears the most resemblance to them in your opinion?

    And, as I have been meaning to ask, why all this talk about Pelasgians? Do you just mean the Neolithic inhabitants of the Aegean before the advent of the Indo-Europeans, or "Greek" speakers who ever they were autosomally? Is it very helpful to use these old classifications that were used by ancient authors long before modern archaeology and history had developed and even longer before the advent of genetic testing? As you can see, Neolithic Europeans are very different from modern Palestinians if Oetzi and the Sardinians are any indication. The Sea Peoples, according to some historians, may have been Indo-European speakers who would not, indeed, have been similar autosomally to the Neolithic inhabitants of Greece and Asia Minor who preceeded them, much less to modern Palestinians, but it's anyone's guess right now, as far as I'm concerned.

    I think you can see my point without even getting into the Tuscans. I just don't see how we can know any of these things.

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    All that was Pelasgian was a race inhabiting the eastern Aegean sea island regions and parts of western Anatolia...I believe they emanated from Crete, which was also the first European region they would colonize from their original middle eastern homelands; these people migrated from Western Anatolia into the Aegean Sea towards Crete once....they would probably re-colonize the coast of Asia Minor as Pelasgians and Greeks later on, ultimately they were of west Asian origin although; the Sea people's they were called during Egyptian times and on their inscriptions, probably Mycenean/Minoan era Greeks primarily from the southern Greek peninsular sphere (Crete, the Peloponnese) pushed out by fierce Dorian tribes arriving from the north (continental Greece) who re-migrated towards their ancient west Asian lands and were responsible for the sack of The Amurru, Arzawa,Hittite empire,Qude and Cypriot people's; all in the span of 50 short years, people's from western Anatolia all south of Syria down across the levant onto the Sinai peninsula. They even attacked the Egyptians. These exact Greeks, known as Achaeans,Danaans and pelasgians that sacked Troy, were of the same middle eastern substratum as the Trojans, yet they had left the Middle East long before to settle Crete and pars of Greece, and had allied themselves with other Pelasgian/Hellenic people's AGAINST Troy. They sacked the Hittite empire and the Arzawa people, settling colonies of Caria,Lycia,Lycaonia,Lydia (or was that were they originally came from?), they arrived there via Rhodes and Crete probably; these sea people's it seems we're expelled by human invasions from Crete , so from there they attacked Egypt, invaded Cyprus, colonized western Turkey by destroying other civilizations (The pelasgians didn't anhilate the Kaska or the Phrygians though. From colonies such as Lycaonia, they moved towards Cilicia, sacking more Semitic civilizations there and continuing south along the Levantine coast down until the Sinai. The Pelasgians that settled the region of PALESTINe (Peleset) where of this race as compared to the majority who are Caananites in the region (Phoenicians, certain Lebanese,Israeli and Jordanian/ Syrian people's predominantly.) The Lydians were pelasgians as we're the Trojans. The Greek city of Thebes was also said to be linked to pelasgians; It was founded by Cadmus, a Phoenician from the Lebanese city of Tyre. Some men from this region of greece migrated into Troy and mixed with Dardanians and Teukrians. The latter, it seems, would leave Troy and the Dardanelles region of Turkey and they would migrate towards the Aegean world; somewhere in between the western coasts of Turkey and eastern continental Greece. Here, in the places they would settle (Lemnos,Samothrace,Crete,Thessaly etc.) they would be known as Danaans,Achaeans and pelasgians. They would at one point or another, emerge from all that Aegean world, probably from Crete or the Southern Peloponnese region of Greece and migrate towards Calabria,Apulia,Sicily,Tuscany, parts of Campania,Molise,Abruzzo,Marche; all across Italy their genetic signatures can be picked up in the forms of E3b and J2 predominantly. J2 is found at 35% in central Marche and Central Calabria; two very different regions of Italy. Southern Apulia has about20-25% J2 and frequencies rise in the north near Foggia/Lucera and the Gargano peninsula. The Salerno region of southern Campania has 25-30% and the Benevento/Caserta region has 20% as does Lazio. Sicily has 28% J2. E3b frequencies also peak in the south and north-west. Most of it is E-V13, a Greek colonization signal. Parts of Apulia and Calabria have 20-25% E3b, and eastern Basilicata has a national peak of 36%.

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    1. The genetic situation of Tuscany has changed tremendously in the past several thousand years, as the predominant J2,G or T lineages of the Etruscans were predominantly replaced by waves of incoming Gallic/Celtic migrants, most of them coming from adjacent Switzerland and France, especially in a high U152+ region like Tuscany. Today, only 15-20% of Tuscan men are J2 because many waves of R1b have co e in to replace them as is seen in the Gallic acquisition of Gallia Cisalpina/Transpadana regions if Italywere they migrated en masse, overtaking the local Etruscan populations (some of them, the rhaetics, had even infiltrated extreme northern Italy)
    2. Sardinians have NO north-European component, the 40% or so of Sardinian men that are I belong to a subclade of I2a; they have an ancient links to the coast of the western Balkans.
    3. The Palestinians are not a race, they're an ethnic group composed of various different haplogroups of which J and E take up a considerable portion of their males. About 40% of Palestinian males are J1, which is most frequent on the southern Arabian peninsula, 15-20% are J2 and another 20-25% belong to E3b. They have thus obviously acquired a large portion from Bedouin Arabs of the nearby regions as J1 surely didn't come from the Aegean. They have about 15-20% J2 and slightly higher E3b frequencies, but it seems, archaeologically, that the first Palestinians to establish the self in the Palestine region used Mycenean Greek style pottery, thus leading specialists to believe that these sea people's called "Peleshet" came from the Aegean Sea region of turkey/Greece. There are no DNA "tests" on sea people's that I know of; there just seems to be clues, large environmental phenomenon a that took place from Crete across Turkey and the Levant that indicated a cultural shift had taken place, a dark as had begun; the first presence of the sea people's marked th end of many civilizations; all of these victims which seem to have been in western Asia across Anatolia and the levant all the way to Egypt.

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    Quote Originally Posted by adamo View Post
    1. The genetic situation of Tuscany has changed tremendously in the past several thousand years, as the predominant J2,G or T lineages of the Etruscans were predominantly replaced by waves of incoming Gallic/Celtic migrants, most of them coming from adjacent Switzerland and France, especially in a high U152+ region like Tuscany. Today, only 15-20% of Tuscan men are J2 because many waves of R1b have co e in to replace them as is seen in the Gallic acquisition of Gallia Cisalpina/Transpadana regions if Italywere they migrated en masse, overtaking the local Etruscan populations (some of them, the rhaetics, had even infiltrated extreme northern Italy)
    2. Sardinians have NO north-European component, the 40% or so of Sardinian men that are I belong to a subclade of I2a; they have an ancient links to the coast of the western Balkans.
    3. The Palestinians are not a race, they're an ethnic group composed of various different haplogroups of which J and E take up a considerable portion of their males. About 40% of Palestinian males are J1, which is most frequent on the southern Arabian peninsula, 15-20% are J2 and another 20-25% belong to E3b. They have thus obviously acquired a large portion from Bedouin Arabs of the nearby regions as J1 surely didn't come from the Aegean. They have about 15-20% J2 and slightly higher E3b frequencies, but it seems, archaeologically, that the first Palestinians to establish the self in the Palestine region used Mycenean Greek style pottery, thus leading specialists to believe that these sea people's called "Peleshet" came from the Aegean Sea region of turkey/Greece. There are no DNA "tests" on sea people's that I know of; there just seems to be clues, large environmental phenomenon a that took place from Crete across Turkey and the Levant that indicated a cultural shift had taken place, a dark as had begun; the first presence of the sea people's marked th end of many civilizations; all of these victims which seem to have been in western Asia across Anatolia and the levant all the way to Egypt.
    If the Etruscans are as per Giotto study in 2013, are from Southern Germany and a "rhaetian" people, then the old Malden theory is correct. That is the etruscans came down from the alps into Italy and enhanced their language with the Italic tribes, while the ones that stayed behind kept their "barbarous" language.

    Malden plausibly suggests the opposite – it was the Etruscans who were descendants of the Rhaetians, not vice versa. He provides no evidence, only conjecture and logic. He argues:
    The natural movement of the population expelled by the Gauls would have been to fall back upon the main body of their nation in their oldest seats south of the Apennines (which, with the swamps between them and the Po, actually formed an available line of defense), not to insulate themselves in the northern mountains. But if Raetia was the mother-country, whence the Etruscans descended into the plains of Italy, it may be easily believed, that a part of the nation staid [sic] behind, and to them the dwellers about the Po may have returned when they sought shelter from the terrible Gauls [citation omitted]. It may be esteemed a confirmation of this hypothesis of the origin of the Etruscans, that they believed the north to be the seat of their gods [citation omitted]. (Malden, 85.)
    Elsewhere in the same book, Malden draws on Niebuhr to disentangle the Tyrsenians (and the Tyrrhennians) from the Etruscans:
    If then we are to believe that the name Tyrseni in Italy belonged originally and properly to the Pelasgian population, the question still remains, how the Greek writers invariably called the Etruscans Tyrseni and Etruria Tyrsenia. The true solution of the problem is, that the country retained its early appellation, and the Etruscans who conquered it succeeded to the name of its former inhabitants. (Malden, 78.)
    có che un pòpoło no 'l defende pi ła só łéngua el xe prónto par èser s'ciavo

    when a people no longer dares to defend its language it is ripe for slavery.

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    Everything contradicts this; the language/customs of thenetruscans, the way the Etruscans saw/represented themselves; all leads us to believe they were Pelasgian in origin.

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    Their ancient language is closest to modern day Armenian and may have been a proto form of it.

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    Remember what legends say, Tubal disembarked near Tuscany; Tubal traces to Iberian Caucasus people's of early Georgia....?

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    It may seem useless to try to base information on population movements via the analysis of Ancient Greek or roman mythology, but what historians of the time wrote actually made a lot of sense because mythology was based on the history/origins of the people worshipping the religion in question. If the bible, for example, associates Javan son of Japheth with Ion, eponymous father of the Ionian people then I will believe that because it's myth and legend but it's based on fact; it's the recounting of the stories of civilizations. Now, it would seem, the son's of Ion, according to the biblxe and many other historical sources of the time, were Elishah (settlers of Cyprus) Tarshish (south-western turkey), Kttim (other Cypriot group), and Dodanim/Rodanim island of Rhodes; that's were Ionian Greeks settled at first.

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    Iapyges/Ἰάπυγες [Messapi / Dauni / Peuceti] of the South East (Apulia) are from a separate Indo-European branch much like the Indo-European Veneti/ἐνετοί of the North East;
    - in contrast to the Indo-European Umbrians (ITALICS) of the Po Valley and Apennines;

    Iapyges language (termed Messapic) known from ~300 inscriptions is Indo-European and considered to be from or closely related to Illyrian;

    Greek Mythology however links the Iapyges/Ἰάπυγες to the Cretans - descendants from Iapyx

    Herodotus - Book VII/CLXX
    All their vessels were broken in pieces; and so, as they saw no means of returning to Crete, they founded the town of Hyria, where they took up their abode, changing their name from Cretans to Messapian Iapygians, and at the same time becoming inhabitants of the mainland instead of islanders. From Hyria they afterwards founded those other towns which the Tarentines at a much later period endeavoured to take, but could not, being defeated signally. Indeed so dreadful a slaughter of Greeks never happened at any other time, so far as my knowledge extends: nor was it only the Tarentines who suffered; but the men of Rhegium too, who had been forced to go to the aid of the Tarentines by Micythus the son of Choerus, lost here three thousand of their citizens; while the number of the Tarentines who fell was beyond all count.

    Hyria = the modern-day Oria

    Strabo - Book VI/CDXXV
    They say that these Cretans were the party who sailed with Minos to Sicily, and that after his death, which took place at Camici, in the palace of Cocalus, they took ship and set sail from Sicily, but in their voyage they were cast by tempest on this coast, some of whom, afterwards coasting the Adriatic on foot, reached Macedonia, and were called Bottiaei. They further add, that all the people who reach as far as Daunia were called Iapygians, from Iapyx, who was born to Daedalus by a Cretan woman, and became a chief leader of the Cretans.

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    The IAPYGIANS were Cretans...Their heroes were Daunus, Peucetis and Messapus (fathers of the Iapygian race) they were brother to Oenotrus, father of the Oenotrians that settled Hesperia from Paestum to the toe of Calabria....sons of Lycaon who's father was Pelasgus, hero of the Pelasgian race. PELASGIANS were ultimately a mix of Lydian and Dardanians/Trojan/Teukrian elements. Coming from western Turkey, they migrated towards the Aegean islands and greece were they would be known as Danaans (Dauni?), Achaeans and pelasgians. The Achaeans would later arrive in and colonize Calabria. The Achaeans I believe, we're sons of the Ionians, who were racially classified biblically as brothers of Medes and Togarmah/Meschech Tubal etc.

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    Also the Ausoni people arrived first by sea to the Lipari islands before arriving in southern mainland italy, they where sons of Greek Odysseus and Circe of ancient Iberia (Georgia region.)

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    And the Aurunci are derivatives/cousins, at least related to the Ausonians. When the Greeks first arrived to colonize southern Italy en masse, they found 4 populations in southern mainland italy, all of this same categoric grouping: The Iapygians (Peuceti,Messapi,Dauni also known as Salentini maybe even "Calabri" I believe as the southern tip of Apulia was anciently known as "Calabria". There where the Enotri, the Chonii (allegedly another Enotrian people that arrived at the same time) the Ausoni and the Aurunci. Now, the Ausoni, coming from the sea towards Lipari islands first, and according to other evidence, where pelasgians, as where their similar Aurunci "offshoots". The Enotrians where obviously pelasgians as well, as we're the Chonii. It seems there was no Gallic invasion of the south or Celtic invasion, until the arrival of the Latins in central Italy. The pre-Greek substratum of southern Italians, seems to have been historically a Pelasgian one, having arrived from the seas to the east of Italy. Unless somehow I am wrong and the Samnites/Sabines or Oscans REALLY were Celtic people's, then southern Italy may have been dominantly Pelasgian, it would be nice to debate the Oscans/Samnites/Sabines origins; were they etruscanoid Pelasgian elements, or continental Celtic tribes; they were one or the other that's quite evident.

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    Aulus Gellius - Book I/X
    the Horatii, talked clearly and intelligibly with their fellows, using the language of their own day, not that of the Aurunci, the Sicani, or the Pelasgi, who are said to have been the earliest inhabitants of Italy.

    Sicani were Iberians and Pelasgi were from the East Aegaen;

    So who are the Aurunci; If they are not from the Pelasgi because they spoke a diff. language than there are only two other options:
    Either Indo-European Italics or Ligurians;
    And both seems very probable;

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    Quote Originally Posted by adamo View Post
    Faliscan,Latin,Umbrian,Ligurian,Lepontic , Venetic speaking people's where probably italics; celts. Etruscan's and Raetic speakers where proto-Georgians/Armenians, Messapic speakers where Cretans; the Sabellic tongues where said to be related to the Oscan one and they where all somehow related to Umbrian, so take from that what you will, I don't know if the linguistic scenario also speaks for the genetic one. Piceni dialects as Sile stated may have been Umbrian with some Greek affect mixed in as well.
    where did you pick up lepontic and ligurian were italic, and celtic akin to etruscan and raetic, and proto-armenian akin to georgian???
    what we know about ligurian would put it between itlaic and celtic, an archaic form maybe, of western old I-Ean, lepontic was celtic, there were TWO rhaetic languages, apparently, one I-Ean the other close to etruscan at first sight, armenian is and were I-E; trying to link etruscan to proto-georgian is not completely stupid but it could have been an other family of pre-I-Ean anatolian-caucasic language, waiting to know more...

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    The Lepontic were certainly celts as the Orumbovii, Salassi, Taurini and other nearby people's where. The d fif cults is when we speak of the Ligurians; Apuani, Aares and such people classified as "Ligurians". I personally believe that the Ligurians where slightly different celts but were celts none the less. If the nearby Gallic tribes such as Vertamocorii and such were in any way related to the Ligurians then they too were celts. Look at the distribution of the Franco-Provençal language across the world, fort example. It's spoken in extreme northwestern Italy, southeastern France and Switzerland. Someone is responsible of the culture linked to that language. Who else could they have been? If they were notGreek substratum or an Etruscan type substratum, then they were eithera mix of one of those with celts, or they were solely celts.

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    Their culture is denoted as "Ligurian" because of the area it inhabits and because it is different from the other common Gallic cultures around it. But the ancient Ligures called themselves "Ambrones", which to me links them to more Northern Europe and those "other" Germanic migrations I spoke of. A Gallic relation/affinity has also been suggested by multiple specialists in the field, it seems that the Ligurian language has particularly strong Celtic affinities.

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    The sub-divisions of their tribes were the Apuani, Friniates, cavalries, bagienni, langenses, the Vocontii etc. to me these names sound Celtic, maybe even Gallic. The Vocontii, for example, a Ligurian tribe, were settled in the Provence region of southeastern France and have always been linked to it. Provence was known as Provença. The Ligurians to me are linked to the spread of the Franco-Provençal Gallic language; this means Ligurians probably inhabited northwestern Italy, southeastern and south central France and all across Switzerland anciently, any monuments or archeological finds attributed to this culture is of a Celtic one.

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    It is this type of migration that most clearly denotes a migration of Gallic people and of R-S28 haplogroup from the latter regions towards Italy. Probably from parts of France or Switzerland (50% R-S28 for the latter) towards Cuneo, Brescia and the Tuscany region (40-50% R-S28).

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