Ancient Italic People

[adamo]

The "Vocontii" Ligurians, were a Gallic people centred in modern day Luc-en-diois and vaison la romaine in France. The Taurini were a gallo-Ligurian people in the center of Piemont. The Salyes (Salluvi) were centered on the Durance plain of France. The Oxybii have a similar origin in France but are under the Ligurian banner as well. The Taurini, Statielli, Salassi and Marici on the other hand, were Ligures as well, but they inhabited the northwestern reaches of Italy. The Laevi inhabited Italy as well. The same cannot be said for the Deciates though as the inhabited the region near Antibes near the Var river area of France. The Ligurian culture spans out perfectly with the spread of Franco-Provençal, need anymore. Need anymore evidence that they where Gauls? They're at least celts.

[adamo]

I mean, considering they inhabited northwestern Italy near the French border, who else could the Ligurians have been if they were not some sort of Greek substratum that magically explains the E3b high in he area. I really doubt it as their language and customs are distantly similar to Celtic and because of all the aforementioned evidence and due to their geographical position in Italy, I give to them a Gallic origin, and if not, I would at least say they are celts, that may have arrived in southeastern France from the Halstatt culture or la tene culture or more probably as they were called Ambrones, they have a north Germanic origin, which may be that "factor" that makes them Ligurian instead of Gallic Celtic as most surrounding tribes are....there's a small possibility they may be celtiberians tribe as well but I truest doubt this and would either ascribe them a Gallic , but more probably Germanic origin.

[adamo]

One ancient Ligurian tribe, the Genuenses would found and give their name to Genoa in LIGURIA northwestern Italy. Another Ligurian tribe, the Helysici, lived in extreme southwestern France in the city of Narbonne.

[adamo]

The Laevi and Marici Ligurians were celts responsible for the foundation of Pavia. Ligurian tribes settled over much of what is today's southeastern France, Switzerland and northwestern Italy....i think they were Gauls with possibly a Greek substratum or something I don't know, needless to say, the geographical spread of the Ligurians makes them good candidates for celts, but Greeks settled Marseille so their spread across only Liguria,Piemont, Aosta and near Provence and one exception further west but it's a coastal settlement...they could also somehow be Greeks because the southeast coast f France was settled minority by Greeks and all that area is a minor Neolithic high especiallyE3b goes to 25% near genoa and possibly near Marseilles....but knowing that these people are called "Ambrones"... They're not Greek at all they sound certainly Celtic though! And their language was easily classified as indo-European with definite Celtic influence...

[Nobody1]

The Ligurians were clearly pre-Indo-European peoples becoming a Hybrid people of the constant inter-mixing with the Indo-European Umbrians; This is of course Historically and Anthropologically documented;


Anthropological Society of London - Anthropological review: Vol.V (1867)
when I look upon the delineations of the crania, the photographs and the figures given by M. Nicolucci himself, it appears to me that the difference between Ligurians and Umbrians, is about equal to the differences between Allemands and Germans.


The Ligurians themselves considered themselves to be of Ambronen (Umbrian) origins;

Plutarch - Life of Caius Marius Ch.XIX/IV
The Ligurians who were the first of the Italic people to go down to battle with them, hearing their shouts, and understanding what they said, responded by calling out their old national name, which was the same, for the Ligurians also call themselves Ambrones when they refer to their origin.


The Caturiges (Insubrian refugees) and the Vagienni (Ligurians) clearly demonstrate what has happened;

Plinius - Naturalis Historia Book III/VII & XXI
The more celebrated of the Ligurian tribes beyond the Alps are the Salluvii, the Deciates, and the Oxubii ; on this side of the Alps, the Veneni, and the Vagienni, who are derived from the Caturiges.......The Caturiges have also perished, an exiled race of the Insubres

And we all know that the Insubres [IsOMBRI] are nothing else than low-land Umbrians; And judging by the Urnfield Golasecca culture a very primitive and archaic people - which is exactly why Lepontic (their language) could very well also be P-Italic Umbrian (archaic);

[Nobody1]

The Ligurians of the Rhone-valley were no bit diff. then the Ligurians of the Po-valley and western Alps;
And why should they have been;


Henry Malden - History of Rome (1830)
Pliny held the Sallyi, Deceates, and Oxybii, tribes upon the coast, to be Ligurians. Strabo is more cautious; and informs us that later writers called the Salyes, who extended along the coast a little further than Massalia (Marseilles), Celto-Ligyes (that is, Gallo-Ligurians), from the intermixture of the Gaulish population; but that the earlier Greeks called them Ligyes, and the country which the Massaliots occupied, Ligystic or Ligurian........This agrees with the account of Scylax, who makes the Rhone the limit of the pure Ligurians. Avienus fixes the same limit and the same must have been supposed by Aeschylus. Herodotus also speaks of the Ligyes who dwell above Massalia and here we may observe that from this Grecian colony the Greeks might derive a correct knowledge of the neighbouring people.


The Oxybii and Deciates were also recorded as the 'Transalpine Ligurians' by Livius;

Livius - Book XLVII
The consul, Quintus Opimius, defeats the Transalpine Ligurians, who had plundered Antipolis and Nicaea, two towns belonging to the Massilians.

Strabo - Book IV/VI
The ancient Greeks gave to the Salyes the name of Ligyes, and to the country which was in the possession of the Marseillese, that of Ligystica. The later Greeks named them Kelto-Ligyes, and assigned to them the whole of the plains extending as far as Luerion and the Rhone. ......On the opposite side of the mountains, sloping towards Italy, dwell the Taurini, a Ligurian nation, together with certain other Ligurians.

[Diviacus]

Hopefully, we have recent studies since 1830 and 1867 !!
And if you read (in French) : Goudineau (1998), Guillaumet and Rapin ((2000), V.Kruta (2000), Garcia (2002 and 2004), J.Chausserie-Laprée (2005), P.Thollard (2009) or F.Régnier(2013), you will learn that the question of the Ligurians has made considerable progress.
Present historians don't see so much difference between Celts and Ligurians, and the Ligurian language is not so obviously considered as a pre-Indo-European one.

[Nobody1]

Hopefully, we have recent studies since 1830 and 1867 !!
And if you read (in French) : Goudineau (1998), Guillaumet and Rapin ((2000), V.Kruta (2000), Garcia (2002 and 2004), J.Chausserie-Laprée (2005), P.Thollard (2009) or F.Régnier(2013), you will learn that the question of the Ligurians has made considerable progress.

What question are you talking about?

But considerable progress sounds very exciting;
Just translate and post some quotes from those books - and highlight the considerable progress;
And could you add a list to all the new Ligurian inscriptions that were found; I thank you in advanced;

Present historians don't see so much difference between Celts and Ligurians

Not sure if you noticed it but the Anthropological study from 1867 states that the Ligurians and Umbrians were greatly identical;
Not sure if you noticed it but the Ligurians considered themselves to be from the Ambrones (Umbrians);
Not sure if you noticed it in all the 'progress' you are making but it is Anthropologically, Archaeologically, Historically (Caturiges) and Linguistically (Lepontic) attested that the Umbrians (mostly the Isombri/Insubres) greatly inter-mixed with the pre-Indo-European Ligurians;

In fact the Ligurians even adopted many elements of the Urnfield culture and Greek and Roman historians considered them equally Barbaric;

Lucan - Pharsalia Book I/CDXCVll
Ligurian tribes, now shorn, in ancient days First of the long-haired nations, on whose necks Once flowed the auburn locks in pride supreme

Dionysius - BookI/XIII
let them be slow also in believing the Aborigines to be Ligurians, Umbrians, or any other barbarians, and let them suspend their judgment till they have heard what remains to be told and then determine which opinion out of all is the most probable.


The Keltic connection can only come via the Umbrians; Which isnt even surprising or dramatic;
The Umbrians (ITALICS) and Kelts are both Indo-Europeans and share a common close root within the Indo-European family (Linguistically/Archaeologically) and even Historically the Umbrians were documented as being of the same stock as the Kelts;

Cambrian Institute - The Cambrian Journal (1862)
Caius Sempronius (De Divis. Ital.) - 'The portion of the Apennines from the sources of the Tiber to the Nar, the Umbri inhabit, the oldest stock of the Old Gael, (Veteres Galli), as Augustus writes'
[Apenninum colunt Ligures, portionem vero Apennini inhabitant Umbri, prima veterum Gallorum proies, ut Augustus scribit]

James C. Prichard - Ethnography of Europe: Vol.III (1841)
Solinus informs us that Bocchus, a writer who has been several times cited by Pliny, reported the Umbri to have been descended from the ancient Gauls; and a similar account of their origin has been adopted, either from the same or from different testimony, by Servius, Isidore, and other writers of a late period.
[Bocchus (affranchi lettre de Sylla) absolvit Gallorum veterum propaginem Umbros esse]
[Umbri, Italiae gens est, sed Gallorum veterum propago]

Guy Bradley - Ancient Umbria (2000) [Oxford Uni. Press]
There is an interesting tradition that the name of the Umbrians came from their survival of a mythical flood: see Pliny, NH 3. 112. This tradition could go back at least to Marcus Antonius (Gnipho) in early 1st cent. BC. See Servius, Aen. 12. 753: sane Umbros Gallorum veterum propaginem esse Marcus Antonius refert: hos eosdem, quod tempore aquosae cladis imbribus superfuerunt Ombrous ἡ Ὀμβρική / Ὀμβρικός cognominatos. "Indeed Marcus Antonius reports that the Umbrians are an offspring of the ancient Gauls; and that this same people, because they survived the rains in a time of watery disaster, were called the Ombroi' "


PS: the Book from 1830 actually only quotes (word by word) ancient classical authors; So its practically timeless - i.e. un-outdateable;

[adamo]

To me the Umbrians/Ligurians "Ombrones" "Ambrones" were a pre-Gallic Halstatt culture remainder from the Danube region or maybe Germanic and went to Italy.

[Diviacus]

What question are you talking about?
But considerable progress sounds very exciting;
Just translate and post some quotes from those books - and highlight the considerable progress;
And could you add a list to all the new Ligurian inscriptions that were found; I thank you in advanced;

As you know, very little has been found. Instead of "progress", I should have said "change".
In the 19th century, there was a consensus on the fact the Ligurians spoke a pre - Indo-European language.
My reaction to your post was on "Ligurian were clearly pre-Indo-European peples". No it's not clear.
But, even if it's not clear, the nowadays trend is to consider more probable there were Indo-Europeans.

From A. Manonni (2006) :

"As we have not been able to define a geographic and material identity for the people the ancients called "Ligurians", it's impossible for us to define for them a linguistic indentity which would not be Celtic".
https://www.google.fr/url?sa=t&rct=j...54934254,d.d2k

From V.Kruta (2000) :

"The Ligurian language, badly known, has two different aspects : the first one, basically attested by onomastics, seems to be pre-indo-european, the second one, basically attested by inscriptions from the VIth century BC, is presently considered by some specialists as belonging to Celtic languages"

PS: the Book from 1830 actually only quotes (word by word) ancient classical authors; So its practically timeless - i.e. un-outdateable;

Yes, but as you know, the interpretation of these ancient texts has changed a lot for the last 150 years.

[Nobody1]

Exactly, we all know that there is not much to be argued concerning Linguistics of the Ligurians because of the scanty survivals of it;
That is why i never addressed the field of Linguistics in the first place in my posts #55 & #56;
I have addressed the Anthropology (1867) and the Historical documentation at which (post #56) i took a short cut and simply quoted Prof. H. Malden and his compilation (a very good book) instead of posting the direct quotes from Plinius, Strabo, Scylax and Avienus concerning the Oxybii, Deciates and Salyes; It was just a shortcut;

Whether the Book is from 1830 is secondary its a great compilation (a representation not an interpretation) of Historical (ancient) accounts - from Prof. H. Malden.


But lets look at Linguistics;
Lepontic is an Indo-European language but contains however (like all other Indo-European languages) pre(non)-Indo-European elements;
Kruta (and of course i read the book) mentions Ligurian inscriptions from the 6th cen BC and Dr. David Stifter considers these inscriptions to be containing Keltic elements;
And that is exactly the scenario i tried to explain inpost #55; By illustrating the inter-mixing of Umbrians and pos. also Kelts with the Ligurians (Hybrid Ligurians/-Keltoligyes) with Historical (ancient) documentation and Anthropological studies (there are many more; just ask);


Ligurian inscription - 6th cen BC - Lunigiana stela (Pontremoli)
- uṿezaṛụap̣us / Etruscan alphabet - North Italic Script

[Nobody1]

Another Italic (Indo-European) peoples were the Picentes(PICENI) who stemmed from the Sabines

Strabo - Book V/IV
The Picentini proceeded originally from the land of the Sabini. A woodpecker led the way for their chieftains, and from this bird they have taken their name, it being called in their language Picus, and is regarded as sacred to Mars.

- and the Sabines in turn stemmed from the (archaic) Umbrians;

Dionysius - Book II/XLIX
But Xenodotus of Troezene, an historian, relates that the Umbrians, a native race, first dwelt in the Reatine territory, as it is called, and that, being driven from there by the Pelasgians, they came into the country which they now inhabit, and changing their name with their place of habitation, from Umbrians were called Sabines.

All just another side-story that illustrates that the Umbrians are the mother nation of all Italic tribes and the core nation of the Indo-Europeans that migrated to Italic peninsula during the Bronze-age (Terremare culture ~1400 BC)

The language of the Picentes(PICENI) is termed South Picene and is an Indo-European language closest to Umbrian;

South Picene stelae inscriptions (+alphabet) - Penna Sant'Andrea (5th cen BC)


Of the Picentes necropolis from Campovalano and San Severino (7th-5th cen BC)



Strabo in Book V/IV describes how Picenum (land of the Picentes) was from the Aesis to Castrum (Giulia Nova) and remarks that Ancona (on the coast) was a Greek colony - 'Ancona is of Grecian origin, having been founded by the Syracusans who fled from the tyranny of Dionysius'

[Sile]

Another Italic (Indo-European) peoples were the Picentes(PICENI) who stemmed from the Sabines

Strabo - Book V/IV
The Picentini proceeded originally from the land of the Sabini. A woodpecker led the way for their chieftains, and from this bird they have taken their name, it being called in their language Picus, and is regarded as sacred to Mars.

- and the Sabines in turn stemmed from the (archaic) Umbrians;

Dionysius - Book II/XLIX
But Xenodotus of Troezene, an historian, relates that the Umbrians, a native race, first dwelt in the Reatine territory, as it is called, and that, being driven from there by the Pelasgians, they came into the country which they now inhabit, and changing their name with their place of habitation, from Umbrians were called Sabines.

All just another side-story that illustrates that the Umbrians are the mother nation of all Italic tribes and the core nation of the Indo-Europeans that migrated to Italic peninsula during the Bronze-age (Terremare culture ~1400 BC)

The language of the Picentes(PICENI) is termed South Picene and is an Indo-European language closest to Umbrian;

South Picene stelae inscriptions (+alphabet) - Penna Sant'Andrea (5th cen BC)


Of the Picentes necropolis from Campovalano and San Severino (7th-5th cen BC)



Strabo in Book V/IV describes how Picenum (land of the Picentes) was from the Aesis to Castrum (Giulia Nova) and remarks that Ancona (on the coast) was a Greek colony - 'Ancona is of Grecian origin, having been founded by the Syracusans who fled from the tyranny of Dionysius'

IIRC this only applies to south picene people, the north picene where liburnians linguistically

[adamo]

The Sabines, picentes, and their Samnites offshoots and any tribe linked to Sabines stem from tubal of Georgia. Read my posts in hg J2 section I put just now.

[adamo]

I believe the Marsi, hernici and such tribes where of Sabine origin as well. Whereas the Ausones and aequi were akin to the latins.

[adamo]

It seems that the Umbrians were in the same line as the Volsci and Aequi people. The Opici/Osci and their Ausones derivatives were actually classed with the latins. Then Ionians with Chalcidians, Dorians on their own and Achaeans with Aeolians. The last category (Achaeans and Aeolians) has within in two sub-categories; Athenian and Syracusan. The Phoenicians though were classed with Carthaginians as derivatives.

[adamo]

The last remaining group is Sabellic with Samnites included.

[Nobody1]

Sabellic is the over-term of the Oscan and Umbrian tongues; Italic is split into Latin/Faliscan and Sabellic [Osco/Umbrian];

acc. to D. Piwowarczyk - Jagiellonian Uni. (2011)
http://www.filg.uj.edu.pl/documents/...iwowarczyk.pdf
Umbrian: Umbrian/Aequian/Marsian/Volscian / South Picene and Pre-Samnite being closest to Umbrian
Oscan: Oscan/Paelignian/Marrucinian/Vestinian/Hernican

Aristotle - POLITICS - Book VII
a certain Italus, king of OEnotria, from whom the OEnotrians were called Italians, and who gave the name of Italy to the promontory of Europe lying within the Scylletic and Lametic Gulfs.....this Italus converted the OEnotrians from shepherds into husbandmen, and besides other laws which he gave them, was the founder of their common meals; even in our day some who are derived from him retain this institution and certain other laws of his. On the side of Italy towards Tyrrhenia dwelt the Opici, who are now, as of old, called Ausones; and on the side towards Iapygia and the Ionian Gulf, in the district called Siritis, the Chones, who are likewise of OEnotrian race.

If the Opici (oscans) were originally OEnotrians (i.e. Pelasgians of OEnotrus as rec. by Dionysius and Pausanias) than it is very obvious that at one point the Indo-European Umbrians that migrated further south inter-mixed with the Oenotrians and thus the Opici (oscans) adopted the Indo-European tongue - which is close/similar to Umbrian but with elements that sets it apart;
Which is best recorded in the comparison of Pre-Samnite to Oscan;

The Oscan tongues were all Spoken in territories of the former OEnotrians (South Italy) and the Samnites were Oscan-speakers;

[Nobody1]

The last remaining group is Sabellic with Samnites included.

Sabellic is the over-term of the Oscan and Umbrian tongues;
Italic is split into Latin/Faliscan and Sabellic (Osco-Umbrian);

acc. to D. Piwowarczyk - Jagiellonian Uni. (2011)
http://www.filg.uj.edu.pl/documents/...iwowarczyk.pdf
Umbrian: Umbrian/Aequian/Marsian/Volscian
Oscan: Oscan/Paelignian/Marrucinian/Vestinian/Hernican
South-Picene and Pre-Samnite are closer to Umbrian - E. Dupraz 2012 / K. Nishimura 2008

Aristotle - POLITICS - Book VII
a certain Italus, king of OEnotria, from whom the OEnotrians were called Italians, and who gave the name of Italy to the promontory of Europe lying within the Scylletic and Lametic Gulfs.....this Italus converted the OEnotrians from shepherds into husbandmen, and besides other laws which he gave them, was the founder of their common meals; even in our day some who are derived from him retain this institution and certain other laws of his. On the side of Italy towards Tyrrhenia dwelt the Opici, who are now, as of old, called Ausones; and on the side towards Iapygia and the Ionian Gulf, in the district called Siritis, the Chones, who are likewise of OEnotrian race.

If the Opici (oscans) were originally OEnotrians (i.e. Pelasgians of OEnotrus as rec. by Dionysius and Pausanias) than it is very obvious that at one point the Indo-European Umbrians that expanded/migrated further south inter-mixed with the OEnotrians (Opici/Ausones-Chones etc.) and thus the Opici (oscans) adopted the Indo-European tongue - which is close/similar to Umbrian but with elements that sets it apart; Which is best recorded in the comparison of Pre-Samnite and Oscan;

The Oscan tongues were all ppoken in the territories of the former OEnotrians (South Italy) and the Samnites were an Oscan-speakers;

Oscan Inscription from the - Cippus Abellanus

[adamo]

I heard that Oscans and Ausones were kin to latins: Sabines and Samnites were not of the same origin, they share the same linguistic family though.

[joechill01]

Any Italian p312 haplogroups? I would imagine them to be somewhere in Northern Italy

[Nobody1]

I heard that Oscans and Ausones were kin to latins: Sabines and Samnites were not of the same origin, they share the same linguistic family though.

I think its exactly the other way around;
Oscans/Ausones were Pelasgian OEnotrians while Latins and Sabines are of the Indo-European Umbrians;
But the OEnotrians (Oscans/Ausones) must have been subjugated by the Umbrians since all of Samnium, Campania, Lucania and Bruttium than spoke an Indo-European tongue (Sabellic-Oscan branch) that diverged from archaic Umbrian (ref. to Pre-Samnite);
Samnites and Lucani were Hybrid Umbro-Pelasgian(oenotrian) tribes;

[Nobody1]

Any Italian p312 haplogroups? I would imagine them to be somewhere in Northern Italy

U152 - but its not Italian its Indo-European from the Steppes dragged to the Italic peninsula by the Indo-European Umbrians(ITALICS) of the Bronze-age; In this broader archaic Indo-European context U152 was the most dominant element amongst the Indo-European Italics, a very substantial element amongst the Indo-European Kelts and a minor element amongst other Indo-European branches; and its in the most frequent amongst the modern-day areas of the former Keltic and Italic realms;

Myres et al 2011 -
http://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pmc/articles/PMC3039512/
''whereas the U152 branch is most frequent (20–44%) in Switzerland, Italy, France and Western Poland, with additional instances exceeding 15% in some regions of England and Germany''

In the Po-valley R1b-U152 is over 30% and in some certain areas over 50%

Boattini et al 2013
http://www.plosone.org/article/info%...l.pone.0065441
North Italy (Area I): 32.2% R1b-U152 - [161 samples]
- Brescia: 51.2% - [31 samples]

[Nobody1]

IIRC this only applies to south picene people, the north picene where liburnians linguistically

Yes its all South Picene;
I have looked into it again and im not even sure why the other language is called North Picene;
The territory Ariminum - Aesis has nothing to do with Picenum (Aesis-Giulia Nova) and that area was also never settled by the Picentes; The area of North Picene corresponds to the Ager Gallicus of the Senones and Strabo V/IV also lists cities of the Ombrici in that district; Yet the language (which is not classified / neither Indo-European nor Tyrsenian/Pelasgian) does not naturally fit either the Indo-European Gauls/Senones nor the Indo-European Ombrici/Umbrians - so def. a non-Indo-European language/people but not Tyrsenian/Pelasgian; Pos. Ligurian / I will post some stuff on why i think its Ligurian and not Liburnian;

[Sile]

U152 - but its not Italian its Indo-European from the Steppes dragged to the Italic peninsula by the Indo-European Umbrians(ITALICS) of the Bronze-age; In this broader archaic Indo-European context U152 was the most dominant element amongst the Indo-European Italics, a very substantial element amongst the Indo-European Kelts and a minor element amongst other Indo-European branches; and its in the most frequent amongst the modern-day areas of the former Keltic and Italic realms;

Myres et al 2011 -
http://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pmc/articles/PMC3039512/
''whereas the U152 branch is most frequent (20–44%) in Switzerland, Italy, France and Western Poland, with additional instances exceeding 15% in some regions of England and Germany''

In the Po-valley R1b-U152 is over 30% and in some certain areas over 50%

Boattini et al 2013
http://www.plosone.org/article/info%...l.pone.0065441
North Italy (Area I): 32.2% R1b-U152 - [161 samples]
- Brescia: 51.2% - [31 samples]

according to last week's conference, M.hammer shows U152 originating in central germany (pre german), and then moving south into the alps.
U106 originating in old east germany