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Thread: Ancient Italic People

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    Ethnic group
    Apulian
    Country: Italy



    Ancient Italic People



    Can someone give me a brief description of every Italic tribe , in terms of who they they were Ethnically, Culturally, Linguistically etc

    No need to use Haplogroups.

    By Italic I mean all tribes inhabiting what is now Italy.
    Last edited by GrecoItalicIllyrian; 04-03-13 at 19:53.

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    Well you got the Cisalpine Celts, Romans, Cathraginians, Greeks called the Griko people, Estruicans etc

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    In wat concerns western sicily's Elymians, it would appear that they where Trojans, fleeing from a Troy sacked predominantly by the Achaean variety of Greeks; these Trojans where led by their hero Acestes, they would have founded Segesta.

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    Sicily: 1. Elymians where Trojans 2. Sicani where the first people of Sicily; their genetic profile would have been typically Western European 3. The Siculi/Sicules where Greek colonizers that arrived en-masse in eastern Sicily ( they would have belonged to multiple tribes.) there where two main types of Greeks on Sicily; the Dorians and the Ionians. The Ionians controlled most of the northeastern coastline and eastern Sicilian coastline. They also controlled the tip of Calabria (The Reggio Calabria area). In Basilicata, they controlled the Siris/Heraclea area and a small little stretch of coast. The Ionians also colonized the Elea/Pixous coast region of southern Campania and the Cumae/Ischia/Capua/Napoli region of northern campania. The Ionians, thought to be the Javans of the bible, are in all probabilities, of anatolian descent. Biblically speaking, if they ARE Javan, then they're in the same racial line/category as Iran's Madai (Medes). Athens was originally founded by Ionians, most of the cities on the island of Euboea, such as Eretria and it's ancient rival Chalcis, where founded by Ionian Greeks. (Note that as a city name, Chalcis can also be traced to Syria, as can be the Oenotrians , and Eretria sounds oddly familiar to Etruria). The other Greeks on Sicily are Dorians, they covered the entire southern coastline of Sicily and a strip of land on the tip of apulia where the Iapygians would have earlier (before heavy Greek colonization) installed themselves. The Achaeans, held no territory on Sicily, but they had colonized the entire eastern coast of Calabria, they also founded Paestum in Campania and held small territory in Basilicata. Then I believe Ancona was founded by Syracusan Greeks, who where Doric, and then there's a whole slew of "other" tribes that are not pried to be of continental European origin; we KNOW the Etruscans came from Anatolia, the Oenotrians probably trace their origins here as well, Elymians where Trojans, Phoenicians colonized western Sicily as well, Iapygians came from Crete, The ancient "Oscans" are an odd bunch to figure out; where they a spill-off of Umbrian type tribes, as their linguistic family was Osco-Umbrian? Or was their mix with Greeks as well; a Latin-Hellenic culture? The Umbrians where probably from Denmark (Ambrones) or Germanic and the Sabines I believe descend from them as do in term the Samnites and Oscans. Or, are the Samnites the ancient Sannoi of Georgia in the Middle East? Are the Sabines similar to Enotrians in origin, or like the Celtic Umbrians. Everything north of Etruscan territory other than the Enetoi maybe is always of probably continental European origin, 95% of the time even Celtic.

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    0 out of 1 members found this post helpful.
    So basically we know everything above Tuscany/Umbria is Celtic, but I remain unsure on the Sabines, Samnites, Oscans (Oscans are the Ausones) Aurunci, Piceni, I would like to know more about the origins of the tribes I just mentioned...The Opici (Oscans) was also a theme of western Turkey in the Classical Greek era I believe; I haven't seen evidence confirming these people's aren't of Greek/Anatolian origin.

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    And in what concerns the Greeks, I personally believe that the Ionians where an Anatolian branch, the Achaeans where linked to Aegyptus and the Dorians, who where not to be confused with the "Barbaroi" as they themselves where "Hellenic", where probably of continental European origin, having arrived from the north.

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    0 out of 1 members found this post helpful.
    Ionians and Achaeans (Aeolians included) where "Barbaroi" with different origins; the Dorians where a Hellenic group. Their different mythical origins, when analysed, do coincide well with the genetic history of Greece. The Ionians slowly moved in over thousands of years, as seen in maps, from Anatolia across the Aegean islands and into Greece (Just as the similar Rhodanim move from southwestern Anatolia towards Rhodes and the Kittim moved from Anatolia to settle the island of Cyprus.) The Achaeans arrived from Egypt, as their eponym states (think along the lines of E3b Greeks) and the Dorians arrived via a location in more Northern Europe than where Greece is positioned.

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    In fact, according to the Yosippon, a medieval Rabbinic compilation, the Kittim (Cyprus) migrated to Campania in Italy and there built a city called "Posomanga". Descendants of Tubal on the other hand, migrated to Tuscany and brought about the "Sabino" people. Tubal, is a son of Japeth that lived in Caucasian Iberia, basically modern-day Georgia (Colchis/Iberia).....these Georgian people may even be behind the explanation of Iberia's non-indo-European speaking Iberian people's (Tartessians/Turdetanians), the Samnites may have derived from the Sabines as well). These Kittim that arrived in Italy via Cyprus where anciently associated with Hatti and/or Hittite continental Anatolian people's.)

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    It is clearly indicated in the bible that the Ionians (Javans) where brothers of all the sons of Japheth; Ashkenaz, Riphath, Gomer, Togarmah (father of Georgians/Armenians) Madai (Medes), Tubal (Georgians and father's of settlers of Tuscany to a limited genetic impact, I'm speaking historically), Meschech (father of Caucasus people's linked to Armenia) etc.

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    0 out of 1 members found this post helpful.
    So the Sabines and Samnites, may not be similar to the Suebians and such European tribes; the Samnites may in fact be the Sannoi of Georgia and the Oscans may have been latins with a Hellenic substratum; or they may even have Anatolian origins as the Lucanians and Brutii and Enotrians and Morgetes probably did.

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    2 out of 2 members found this post helpful.
    There are 2 opinions on the Siculi/Σικελοί

    Philistos of Syracuse regarded the Siculi/Σικελοί as Ligurians
    Antiochus of Syracuse regarded the Siculi/Σικελοί as Greeks (descendents of Oenotrians)

    Thucydides
    however records that the Siculi/Σικελοί arrived in Sicily three centuries before the arrival of the Greeks and the establishment of the first colony - Naxos 759 BC;
    And Dionysius and Festus record how the Siculi/Σικελοί were expelled from the central Apennine region by the Umbrians;

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    There you go; another semi-mysterious tribe....The eastern half of Sicily though WAS heavily colonized by Greeks , with ancient Sicilian sites such as Tyndaris, Taormina, Giardini-Naxos and Heraclea Minoa for example; very ancient sites of Greek colonization on Sicily but these sites would date from the middle (intermediate) portion of greek history (the colonies on the coasts of Asia Minor came first).

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    The Chalcidians (who were Ionians) and other Euboeans and peleoponesians heavily colonized parts of Sicily as well as the Dorians. There is also Anatolian genes and Phoenician blood mixed at lower levels in there, not to mention typically European DNA and other possible pelasgic tribes I forgot to mention

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    Nice little picture showing how Ionians and similar Pelasgian people's spread from Turkey and across the Aegean towards Greece and the Mediterranean world beyond.

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    So certainly Ionian,Achaean,Dorian Greeks arrived to Italy along with Cretans (Iapygians), a Cypriot group arrived in Northern Campania and Tubal from Georgia in the Caucasus arrived in Tuscany; presumably the Etruscans. The Chonii and Oenotrians where probably of Greek and before that middle eastern influence. The Lucanians and their Calabrian Brutii and Morgetes offshoots where probably of Anatolian origin and same goes for the Oscans. The Samnites and Sabines where mythical tribes from the Georgia/Armenia region (Sannoi,Tubal). The Phoenicians settled western Sicily as well; this is all the Pelasgian element of Italy (I forgot to mention Enetoi, paphlagonian Turks)

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    One tool to get a sense of the diversity in Italy is to look at the languages spoken there during the iron age. Even if language does not always map to ethnic identity, it's still a useful tool. To name a few (I am taking this mostly from Mallory):


    Ligurian (Ligures, IE, possibly Celtic)
    Lepontic (IE, Celtic)
    Etruscan (Tyrsenian, non-IE)
    Raetic (also thought to be Tyrsenian and related to Etruscan)
    Umbrian (Umbri, related to Oscan)
    Oscan (Sabines, Aurunci, Sidicini, Ausones)
    Massapic (Iapyges, Dauni, Peucetii; possibly related to Illyrian)
    N. Picene (undeciphered)
    S. Picene (probably IE)
    Venetic (IE, centum language, classification debatable)
    Latin (closely related to Faliscan)
    Faliscan (Falisci, closely related to Latin)


    What this suggests is two things:


    1. The presence of a neolithic Tyrsenian substrate; of course how extensive or homogeneous this was remains unknown. There could have been multiple non-IE peoples on the peninsula long before the arrival of the first Indo-Europeans. It would be interesting to know what hg(s) correspond to the Tyrsenians.


    2. What looks like multiple waves of Indo-European diffusion, similar to what happened in Greece, and quite a lot of diversity even within the IE languages on the peninsula.


    And of course this leaves out Sicily and all the later influences (Greek, Punic, Arab, Norman, Lombard, etc.)

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    Quote Originally Posted by autochthon View Post
    One tool to get a sense of the diversity in Italy is to look at the languages spoken there during the iron age. Even if language does not always map to ethnic identity, it's still a useful tool. To name a few (I am taking this mostly from Mallory):


    Ligurian (Ligures, IE, possibly Celtic)
    Lepontic (IE, Celtic)
    Etruscan (Tyrsenian, non-IE)
    Raetic (also thought to be Tyrsenian and related to Etruscan)
    Umbrian (Umbri, related to Oscan)
    Oscan (Sabines, Aurunci, Sidicini, Ausones)
    Massapic (Iapyges, Dauni, Peucetii; possibly related to Illyrian)
    N. Picene (undeciphered)
    S. Picene (probably IE)
    Venetic (IE, centum language, classification debatable)
    Latin (closely related to Faliscan)
    Faliscan (Falisci, closely related to Latin)


    What this suggests is two things:


    1. The presence of a neolithic Tyrsenian substrate; of course how extensive or homogeneous this was remains unknown. There could have been multiple non-IE peoples on the peninsula long before the arrival of the first Indo-Europeans. It would be interesting to know what hg(s) correspond to the Tyrsenians.


    2. What looks like multiple waves of Indo-European diffusion, similar to what happened in Greece, and quite a lot of diversity even within the IE languages on the peninsula.


    And of course this leaves out Sicily and all the later influences (Greek, Punic, Arab, Norman, Lombard, etc.)
    On your list
    Ligurian, spoke ancient tongue, then gaulish, then maybe celtic
    lepontic, ok
    Etruscan, Ok...depends if they began from southern Germany
    Raetic , maybe...they could have been the father tongue of etruscans. etruscan after moving south mixed with italic languages
    Umbrian , ok
    Oscan, ok
    Messapic , no one knows illyrian, so ? ....could even be epirote
    N. Picene, luburinian
    S.picene , umbrian mixed with doric greek from syracuse
    Venetic, became celtic around 500BC according to uni of Heidelberg paper 2012
    Latin, ok
    Faliscan, ok
    có che un pòpoło no 'l defende pi ła só łéngua el xe prónto par èser s'ciavo

    when a people no longer dares to defend its language it is ripe for slavery.

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    Faliscan,Latin,Umbrian,Ligurian,Lepontic , Venetic speaking people's where probably italics; celts. Etruscan's and Raetic speakers where proto-Georgians/Armenians, Messapic speakers where Cretans; the Sabellic tongues where said to be related to the Oscan one and they where all somehow related to Umbrian, so take from that what you will, I don't know if the linguistic scenario also speaks for the genetic one. Piceni dialects as Sile stated may have been Umbrian with some Greek affect mixed in as well.

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    My knowledge is very short about Greece and Italy -
    I red somewhere (B.Sergent?) the Elymes lands in Sicily had a lot of ligurian or close-ligurian placenames (substratum) with a taste of placenames of balkanic origin, something close to illyrian - -
    the Ligurians could have been the first inhabitants (identified ones) - but the personal names would have been the more often of italic origin, with someones of anatolian origin, the language seemed between latine-falisc and osco-umbrian...
    I admit it is a bit complicated!
    by the way, ligurian is clearly not celtic, and shows a position between celtic and italic, more on an archaïc side -
    so the Elymes could have took a part of Sicily on the cost of previous Ligurians - close to the Philistos hypothesis saying Sicules = Ligurians or family???

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    0 out of 1 members found this post helpful.
    False, the Elymians where literally Dardanians of the Troad region, Trojan citizens fleeing the sack of Troy by Greeks such as the Achaeans. Their hero was Acestes, he founded Segesta,Entella,Eryx probably. So basically it goes as follows: Acestes and his group of several thousand colonizers left Troy and arrived in western Sicily. Afterwards, Aeneas the Trojan would arrive as wel with more people, for them, the Elymians would build he aforementioned cities; a Trojan region of extreme western Sicily.

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    The Siculi are thought to have been the Shekelesh of the sea people's, Mycenean era greekspushed out by the Dorian invasions. The Ligurians where a proto-Celtic people's spread across southeastern France and parts of Switzerland and north-Italy.

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    What I have realized upon further analysis is that Oenotrus (father of Enotrians) Peucetius, Daunus and Messapus where all sons of Lycaon of Arcadia from the Peloponnese in Greece. Now, the Iapygian group of Apulia (Peuceti,Daunian,Messapi) where once said to have come from Crete, as IAPYX The eponymous hero of the Iapygian's was from Crete and was venerated there. But being sons ofLycaon this links them to mainland Greece, Peloponnese region. Either way, which ever they came from, we know that Lycaon is a region of southern Turkey (Lycaonia in turkey, Lucania Italy, Lykaia Ancient Greek festival of the wolf) and that Lycaon was son of Pelasgus. So now, ultimately, we know that the Oeonotrians and Iapygians were of the Pelasgian race. Now, who were the pelasgians? To me, personally, they where the Sea people's of the late Bronze Age. Now,where did the sea people's originally come from? Where did they settle? It would seem the Pelasgians would eventually inhabit parts of mainland Greece, Crete, Aegean islands and coastal Asia Minor. Where does the Pelasgian race start off? Probably somewhere near Karphatos or Rhode islands near the southern coast's of Asia Minor; they came from an area holding with in it Crete,Rhodes Aegean island region or the southern coasts of westernmost turkey by the Aegean Sea. This is from were they would originally explode from. One branch of sea people's would move from Karpathos island towards Crete and another from the same starting point but off towards Cyprus. From Rhodes a branch would found nearby Caria and Lycia, two sea people states in Asia Minor, the Lydians where of this race. Lycaonia and the city of Sagalassos where founded by these people. They moved eastwards, hugging the southern coast of Asia Minor until reaching the Cilicia region near Syria were they defeated the Qude people and sacked Karchemish. They sacked Allalah,Aleppo and Ugarit, destroying the Amurru people Of Syria. They kept heading south into the levant and onto the Sinai peninsula where they fought the Egyptians; one of their branches was the Peleset (Palestinians). Another was Sicily's Shekel and another Sardinia's Sherden. Then there were the Libu and Meshwesh; non-related Libyan tribes that moved towards Egypt's capital regions, the Hapiru moved from Jordan into Jerusalem, another non-related Semitic group. The Arameans expanded from the northern Arabian deserts towards Lebanon, Syria and Iraq where they sacked Babylonian cities. The Elamites occupied southwestern Iran and the Assyrians of the time where centred on northern Iraq. The Medes where in northwestern Iran, and the Hurrians occupied the Armenian plateau. The Kaska people lived in north-central turkey and the Phrygians where slightly to the west of them. From here, the Phrygians would launch campaigns eastwards towards Armenia. Those Sea people's that moved from Asia Minor towards the Aegean Sea where Lydians and Dardanians/Teukrians basically Trojans. By the time they reached the Aegean Sea they where known as Danaans,Achaeans and PELASGIANS. The Tyrsenoi (Etruscans) were a derivate of this race. I personally believe the Pelasgian race originated on Kaphtor (crete) as it seems this is from where the original Leleges (inhabitants of west turkey) seem to have came from (from back-migration travel of isolated middle eastern people's on Crete back towards turkey after having initially arrived from there either way. It would seem a group of Lydians mixed in with Dardanians/Teukrians would have left western turkey for the Aegean Sea. In their transition through the Greek Aegean, these exact same Anatolian men would be knows as DANAANS (Dauni? Denyen,sea people's, Israeli tribe of Dan?) others as ACHAEANS (their first colonies where on CYPRUS) and as PELASGIANS. From the Peloponnese , one group of them would arrive in eastern Sicily (siculi) then from there one group would move towards Tuscany and another to Sardinia. To me, the Sea people's/pelasgians where Mycenean era Greeks fleeing their homeland after the Dorian invasions and expanding/changing the Mediterranean world.

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    The Sea people's sudden presence in the Mediterranean basin brought about the end of the Arzawa, Hatti, Qude, Alashiya and Amurru people's of the levant and Turkey. They had probably been expulsed from the Aegean region but had arrived from the east of that region anyways once ago. The sea people's were born of the Orient but left it for Aegean Europe, they would return later though, acting as hostile, to fight/subdue much of the Levantine region of the Middle East, who were they? PELASGIANS,DANAANS,ACHAEANS........Tyrsenoi/Etruscans Oenotrians Peucetians Iapygians

    The Minoan/Mycenean era Greeks.

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    Quote Originally Posted by adamo View Post
    False, the Elymians where literally Dardanians of the Troad region, Trojan citizens fleeing the sack of Troy by Greeks such as the Achaeans. Their hero was Acestes, he founded Segesta,Entella,Eryx probably. So basically it goes as follows: Acestes and his group of several thousand colonizers left Troy and arrived in western Sicily. Afterwards, Aeneas the Trojan would arrive as wel with more people, for them, the Elymians would build he aforementioned cities; a Trojan region of extreme western Sicily.
    Do you really believe it, or do you think it's a myth ?

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    Eastern Sicily was colonized by Sicels, Mycenean-era sea people's (greeks), the center had a more typically west-European genetic distribution and the westernmost regions were first colonized by ancient Phoenicians and then subsequently invaded by anatolians

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