Exactly, we all know that there is not much to be argued concerning Linguistics of the Ligurians because of the scanty survivals of it;
That is why i never addressed the field of Linguistics in the first place in my posts #55 & #56;
I have addressed the Anthropology (1867) and the Historical documentation at which (post #56) i took a short cut and simply quoted Prof. H. Malden and his compilation (a very good book) instead of posting the direct quotes from Plinius, Strabo, Scylax and Avienus concerning the Oxybii, Deciates and Salyes; It was just a shortcut;

Whether the Book is from 1830 is secondary its a great compilation (a representation not an interpretation) of Historical (ancient) accounts - from Prof. H. Malden.


But lets look at Linguistics;
Lepontic is an Indo-European language but contains however (like all other Indo-European languages) pre(non)-Indo-European elements;
Kruta (and of course i read the book) mentions Ligurian inscriptions from the 6th cen BC and Dr. David Stifter considers these inscriptions to be containing Keltic elements;
And that is exactly the scenario i tried to explain inpost #55; By illustrating the inter-mixing of Umbrians and pos. also Kelts with the Ligurians (Hybrid Ligurians/-Keltoligyes) with Historical (ancient) documentation and Anthropological studies (there are many more; just ask);


Ligurian inscription - 6th cen BC - Lunigiana stela (Pontremoli)
11px-Ud.png
7px-Vd.png
7px-Ed.png
7px-Z2d.png
9px-A9d.png
7px-Rd.png
9px-U12d.png
11px-A24d.png
7px-Pd.png
9px-U12d.png
5px-Sd.png
- uṿezaṛụap̣us / Etruscan alphabet - North Italic Script
2nqp.png
 
Another Italic (Indo-European) peoples were the Picentes(PICENI) who stemmed from the Sabines

Strabo - Book V/IV
The Picentini proceeded originally from the land of the Sabini. A woodpecker led the way for their chieftains, and from this bird they have taken their name, it being called in their language Picus, and is regarded as sacred to Mars.

- and the Sabines in turn stemmed from the (archaic) Umbrians;

Dionysius - Book II/XLIX
But Xenodotus of Troezene, an historian, relates that the Umbrians, a native race, first dwelt in the Reatine territory, as it is called, and that, being driven from there by the Pelasgians, they came into the country which they now inhabit, and changing their name with their place of habitation, from Umbrians were called Sabines.

All just another side-story that illustrates that the Umbrians are the mother nation of all Italic tribes and the core nation of the Indo-Europeans that migrated to Italic peninsula during the Bronze-age (Terremare culture ~1400 BC)

The language of the Picentes(PICENI) is termed South Picene and is an Indo-European language closest to Umbrian;

South Picene stelae inscriptions (+alphabet) - Penna Sant'Andrea (5th cen BC)
kect.png


Of the Picentes necropolis from Campovalano and San Severino (7th-5th cen BC)
7lm6.png



Strabo in Book V/IV describes how Picenum (land of the Picentes) was from the Aesis to Castrum (Giulia Nova) and remarks that Ancona (on the coast) was a Greek colony - 'Ancona is of Grecian origin, having been founded by the Syracusans who fled from the tyranny of Dionysius'
 
Another Italic (Indo-European) peoples were the Picentes(PICENI) who stemmed from the Sabines

Strabo - Book V/IV
The Picentini proceeded originally from the land of the Sabini. A woodpecker led the way for their chieftains, and from this bird they have taken their name, it being called in their language Picus, and is regarded as sacred to Mars.

- and the Sabines in turn stemmed from the (archaic) Umbrians;

Dionysius - Book II/XLIX
But Xenodotus of Troezene, an historian, relates that the Umbrians, a native race, first dwelt in the Reatine territory, as it is called, and that, being driven from there by the Pelasgians, they came into the country which they now inhabit, and changing their name with their place of habitation, from Umbrians were called Sabines.

All just another side-story that illustrates that the Umbrians are the mother nation of all Italic tribes and the core nation of the Indo-Europeans that migrated to Italic peninsula during the Bronze-age (Terremare culture ~1400 BC)

The language of the Picentes(PICENI) is termed South Picene and is an Indo-European language closest to Umbrian;

South Picene stelae inscriptions (+alphabet) - Penna Sant'Andrea (5th cen BC)
kect.png


Of the Picentes necropolis from Campovalano and San Severino (7th-5th cen BC)
7lm6.png



Strabo in Book V/IV describes how Picenum (land of the Picentes) was from the Aesis to Castrum (Giulia Nova) and remarks that Ancona (on the coast) was a Greek colony - 'Ancona is of Grecian origin, having been founded by the Syracusans who fled from the tyranny of Dionysius'

IIRC this only applies to south picene people, the north picene where liburnians linguistically
 
The Sabines, picentes, and their Samnites offshoots and any tribe linked to Sabines stem from tubal of Georgia. Read my posts in hg J2 section I put just now.
 
I believe the Marsi, hernici and such tribes where of Sabine origin as well. Whereas the Ausones and aequi were akin to the latins.
 
It seems that the Umbrians were in the same line as the Volsci and Aequi people. The Opici/Osci and their Ausones derivatives were actually classed with the latins. Then Ionians with Chalcidians, Dorians on their own and Achaeans with Aeolians. The last category (Achaeans and Aeolians) has within in two sub-categories; Athenian and Syracusan. The Phoenicians though were classed with Carthaginians as derivatives.
 
The last remaining group is Sabellic with Samnites included.
 
Sabellic is the over-term of the Oscan and Umbrian tongues; Italic is split into Latin/Faliscan and Sabellic [Osco/Umbrian];

acc. to
D. Piwowarczyk - Jagiellonian Uni. (2011)
http://www.filg.uj.edu.pl/documents/41616/8969068/12806-Piwowarczyk.pdf
Umbrian: Umbrian/Aequian/Marsian/Volscian / South Picene and Pre-Samnite being closest to Umbrian
Oscan: Oscan/Paelignian/Marrucinian/Vestinian/Hernican

Aristotle - POLITICS - Book VII
a certain Italus, king of OEnotria, from whom the OEnotrians were called Italians, and who gave the name of Italy to the promontory of Europe lying within the Scylletic and Lametic Gulfs.....this Italus converted the OEnotrians from shepherds into husbandmen, and besides other laws which he gave them, was the founder of their common meals; even in our day some who are derived from him retain this institution and certain other laws of his. On the side of Italy towards Tyrrhenia dwelt the Opici, who are now, as of old, called Ausones; and on the side towards Iapygia and the Ionian Gulf, in the district called Siritis, the Chones, who are likewise of OEnotrian race.

If the Opici (oscans) were originally OEnotrians (i.e. Pelasgians of OEnotrus as rec. by Dionysius and Pausanias) than it is very obvious that at one point the Indo-European Umbrians that migrated further south inter-mixed with the Oenotrians and thus the Opici (oscans) adopted the Indo-European tongue - which is close/similar to Umbrian but with elements that sets it apart;
Which is best recorded in the comparison of Pre-Samnite to Oscan;

The Oscan tongues were all Spoken in territories of the former OEnotrians (South Italy) and the Samnites were Oscan-speakers;
 
The last remaining group is Sabellic with Samnites included.

Sabellic is the over-term of the Oscan and Umbrian tongues;
Italic is split into Latin/Faliscan and Sabellic (Osco-Umbrian);

acc. to
D. Piwowarczyk - Jagiellonian Uni. (2011)
http://www.filg.uj.edu.pl/documents/41616/8969068/12806-Piwowarczyk.pdf
Umbrian: Umbrian/Aequian/Marsian/Volscian
Oscan: Oscan/Paelignian/Marrucinian/Vestinian/Hernican
South-Picene and Pre-Samnite are closer to Umbrian - E. Dupraz 2012 / K. Nishimura 2008

Aristotle - POLITICS - Book VII
a certain Italus, king of OEnotria, from whom the OEnotrians were called Italians, and who gave the name of Italy to the promontory of Europe lying within the Scylletic and Lametic Gulfs.....this Italus converted the OEnotrians from shepherds into husbandmen, and besides other laws which he gave them, was the founder of their common meals; even in our day some who are derived from him retain this institution and certain other laws of his. On the side of Italy towards Tyrrhenia dwelt the Opici, who are now, as of old, called Ausones; and on the side towards Iapygia and the Ionian Gulf, in the district called Siritis, the Chones, who are likewise of OEnotrian race.

If the Opici (oscans) were originally OEnotrians (i.e. Pelasgians of OEnotrus as rec. by Dionysius and Pausanias) than it is very obvious that at one point the Indo-European Umbrians that expanded/migrated further south inter-mixed with the OEnotrians (Opici/Ausones-Chones etc.) and thus the Opici (oscans) adopted the Indo-European tongue - which is close/similar to Umbrian but with elements that sets it apart; Which is best recorded in the comparison of Pre-Samnite and Oscan;

The Oscan tongues were all ppoken in the territories of the former OEnotrians (South Italy) and the Samnites were an Oscan-speakers;

Oscan Inscription from the - Cippus Abellanus
u05w.png
 
I heard that Oscans and Ausones were kin to latins: Sabines and Samnites were not of the same origin, they share the same linguistic family though.
 
Any Italian p312 haplogroups? I would imagine them to be somewhere in Northern Italy
 
I heard that Oscans and Ausones were kin to latins: Sabines and Samnites were not of the same origin, they share the same linguistic family though.

I think its exactly the other way around;
Oscans/Ausones were Pelasgian OEnotrians while Latins and Sabines are of the Indo-European Umbrians;
But the OEnotrians (Oscans/Ausones) must have been subjugated by the Umbrians since all of Samnium, Campania, Lucania and Bruttium than spoke an Indo-European tongue (Sabellic-Oscan branch) that diverged from archaic Umbrian (ref. to Pre-Samnite);
Samnites and Lucani were Hybrid Umbro-Pelasgian(oenotrian) tribes;
 
Any Italian p312 haplogroups? I would imagine them to be somewhere in Northern Italy

U152 - but its not Italian its Indo-European from the Steppes dragged to the Italic peninsula by the Indo-European Umbrians(ITALICS) of the Bronze-age; In this broader archaic Indo-European context U152 was the most dominant element amongst the Indo-European Italics, a very substantial element amongst the Indo-European Kelts and a minor element amongst other Indo-European branches; and its in the most frequent amongst the modern-day areas of the former Keltic and Italic realms;

Myres et al 2011 -
http://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pmc/articles/PMC3039512/
''whereas the U152 branch is most frequent (20–44%) in Switzerland, Italy, France and Western Poland, with additional instances exceeding 15% in some regions of England and Germany''

In the Po-valley R1b-U152 is over 30% and in some certain areas over 50%

Boattini et al 2013
http://www.plosone.org/article/info:doi/10.1371/journal.pone.0065441
North Italy (Area I): 32.2% R1b-U152 - [161 samples]
- Brescia: 51.2% - [31 samples]
 
IIRC this only applies to south picene people, the north picene where liburnians linguistically

Yes its all South Picene;
I have looked into it again and im not even sure why the other language is called North Picene;
The territory Ariminum - Aesis has nothing to do with Picenum (Aesis-Giulia Nova) and that area was also never settled by the Picentes; The area of North Picene corresponds to the Ager Gallicus of the Senones and Strabo V/IV also lists cities of the Ombrici in that district; Yet the language (which is not classified / neither Indo-European nor Tyrsenian/Pelasgian) does not naturally fit either the Indo-European Gauls/Senones nor the Indo-European Ombrici/Umbrians - so def. a non-Indo-European language/people but not Tyrsenian/Pelasgian; Pos. Ligurian / I will post some stuff on why i think its Ligurian and not Liburnian;
 
U152 - but its not Italian its Indo-European from the Steppes dragged to the Italic peninsula by the Indo-European Umbrians(ITALICS) of the Bronze-age; In this broader archaic Indo-European context U152 was the most dominant element amongst the Indo-European Italics, a very substantial element amongst the Indo-European Kelts and a minor element amongst other Indo-European branches; and its in the most frequent amongst the modern-day areas of the former Keltic and Italic realms;

Myres et al 2011 -
http://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pmc/articles/PMC3039512/
''whereas the U152 branch is most frequent (20–44%) in Switzerland, Italy, France and Western Poland, with additional instances exceeding 15% in some regions of England and Germany''

In the Po-valley R1b-U152 is over 30% and in some certain areas over 50%

Boattini et al 2013
http://www.plosone.org/article/info:doi/10.1371/journal.pone.0065441
North Italy (Area I): 32.2% R1b-U152 - [161 samples]
- Brescia: 51.2% - [31 samples]

according to last week's conference, M.hammer shows U152 originating in central germany (pre german), and then moving south into the alps.
U106 originating in old east germany
 
Yes its all South Picene;
I have looked into it again and im not even sure why the other language is called North Picene;
The territory Ariminum - Aesis has nothing to do with Picenum (Aesis-Giulia Nova) and that area was also never settled by the Picentes; The area of North Picene corresponds to the Ager Gallicus of the Senones and Strabo V/IV also lists cities of the Ombrici in that district; Yet the language (which is not classified / neither Indo-European nor Tyrsenian/Pelasgian) does not naturally fit either the Indo-European Gauls/Senones nor the Indo-European Ombrici/Umbrians - so def. a non-Indo-European language/people but not Tyrsenian/Pelasgian; Pos. Ligurian / I will post some stuff on why i think its Ligurian and not Liburnian;
If the Picentes never settled north of Aesis, how were called the inhabitants of the territory Ariminum-Aesis (before the Senones), who were speaking the (probably) non IE language which can be seen on the Novilara stele?
 
I telieve that before the senones arrived in the Marche region there were a people called the picentes inhabiting the region.
 
If the Picentes never settled north of Aesis, how were called the inhabitants of the territory Ariminum-Aesis (before the Senones), who were speaking the (probably) non IE language which can be seen on the Novilara stele?

That all depends on the precise Geography;
But in the broadest sense of Picenum - Livius (V/XXXV) records that the Senones occupied the lands from the Utis (Montone) to the Aesis; and Polybius (II/XXI) includes the Ager Gallicus as part of Picenum;

Silius Italicus (VIII/440-445) records that Picenum was once inhabited by Pelasgians and that Aesis was one of their leader;
Plinius (III/XVIII-XIX) records that the earliest inhabitants were Siculi and Liburnians but the Librunians are placed further south at Truentum and Praetutia;

Other peoples mentioned in this district before the Gauls are the Umbrians by Strabo (V/IV) and Plinius (III/XIX);

I think its a question of Siculi/Pelasgian and Liburnian tending more towards Siculi/Pelasgian than Liburnian;
The Siculi and Pelasgians could go hand in hand acc. to Thucydides (VI/XVIII) and would explain it being def. not Indo-European;
Liburnians were described as Illyrians and should than be Indo-European (but it isnt) and the Liburnians are placed to far south from the Aesis at Truentum;
 
Plenty of evidence pointing to the Siculi (Sicels) being indo-european.
 

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