Eupedia Forums
Site NavigationEupedia Top > Eupedia Forum & Japan Forum
Page 2 of 3 FirstFirst 123 LastLast
Results 26 to 50 of 73

Thread: gods odin,thor

  1. #26
    Regular Member Achievements:
    1000 Experience Points1 year registered

    Join Date
    20-11-12
    Posts
    577
    Points
    3,220
    Level
    16
    Points: 3,220, Level: 16
    Level completed: 43%, Points required for next Level: 230
    Overall activity: 19.0%


    Country: Canada



    Quote Originally Posted by Anthro-inclined View Post
    Read carefully, in my last post i said that ANIMISM was practiced in europe before polytheism, go back and read my post. Polytheism hasnt been around for that long, probably only 10000 years, before this as hunter gatherers all humans believed that the spirit world is in everthing around us( Animism ). Human history in Europe goes back 40000 years, to say that one religious form ( Polytheism ) was the only one practiced up until 2000 years ago, is ridiculous.
    animism is polytheistic, unless you worship only one animal, but that's unlikely. Hunter-gatherer societies are usually animistic, because their lifes depend on the animals they have to hunt; if they kill too many of one animal, they cause an imbalance in the ecosystem and endanger their own lives in the long term. Native Americans are a good example of that (cult of the eagle, bear etc), but it wouldn't make sense for them to just stick to one animal as their only god.

  2. #27
    Regular Member Achievements:
    Tagger Second ClassOverdriveVeteran5000 Experience Points
    nordicfoyer's Avatar
    Join Date
    25-01-13
    Posts
    200
    Points
    7,524
    Level
    25
    Points: 7,524, Level: 25
    Level completed: 95%, Points required for next Level: 26
    Overall activity: 0%

    Y-DNA haplogroup
    I1 (M253)
    MtDNA haplogroup
    H

    Ethnic group
    European mix
    Country: United States



    1 out of 1 members found this post helpful.
    As the more warlike hg R mindset "rubbed off" on the I1 Norse and they left the fertility based religious practices-- a new group would have gelled. This would be the beginning of the Germanic tribes as we now understand them.

    I hypothesize that the fertility aspects never fully went away, that the Norse relied on especially Thor for victory in battle. There are accounts of the Norsemen striking during a storm which would further freak out their opponents and give them what now read like supernatural powers.

    Northern Germanic tribes also painted themselves black before battle (I think they attacked at night) and this would also terrify the intended target. My thought is that the Norse paid much closer attention to the timing of their attacks than other groups (time of day, weather, season, moon cycle) because they understood much of the battle is won before it begins. Fear is a powerful force, make the other guy fight it.

    **EDIT** I also don't think the early hg R knew what they were getting involved with by teaching I1 the art of war. Little did they know that the student would surpass the teacher...

    The great part about all of this entire thread is that there is no way to verify any aspect of this debate. We have only the fog of ancient myth, which is open to interpretation.

    **EDIT II** That man-tiger or man-lion comparison might be off. Bear. Look into bear and it's importance for these peoples.
    Last edited by nordicfoyer; 09-03-13 at 13:45.

  3. #28
    Regular Member Achievements:
    1000 Experience Points1 year registered
    Anthro-inclined's Avatar
    Join Date
    13-11-12
    Location
    Toronto
    Posts
    226
    Points
    2,342
    Level
    13
    Points: 2,342, Level: 13
    Level completed: 64%, Points required for next Level: 108
    Overall activity: 3.0%


    Country: Canada



    Quote Originally Posted by kamani View Post
    animism is polytheistic, unless you worship only one animal, but that's unlikely. Hunter-gatherer societies are usually animistic, because their lifes depend on the animals they have to hunt; if they kill too many of one animal, they cause an imbalance in the ecosystem and endanger their own lives in the long term. Native Americans are a good example of that (cult of the eagle, bear etc), but it wouldn't make sense for them to just stick to one animal as their only god.
    my good lord i suspected that you didnt really know what you were talking about, but to not know the difference between Polytheism and Animism is pretty sad, considering your still defending your uninformed view. please take a class in religious philosophy go online and do some research, i really see no point in arguing with you at this point, until you can adquetly defend your argument without splitting hairs.

  4. #29
    Regular Member Achievements:
    1000 Experience Points1 year registered
    Anthro-inclined's Avatar
    Join Date
    13-11-12
    Location
    Toronto
    Posts
    226
    Points
    2,342
    Level
    13
    Points: 2,342, Level: 13
    Level completed: 64%, Points required for next Level: 108
    Overall activity: 3.0%


    Country: Canada



    Quote Originally Posted by Templar View Post
    That is a great point. If many pre-Indo-European words remained, it makes sense that some of the culture, religion, and traditions did as well. Especially if we assume that Germanic people are more Cro-Magnon/Paleolithic European genetically than Indo-European.
    Thank you, finally were getting back on topic. I agree with your point, an example i can give to support your argument would be the metis people. Even though their patrilineal lines are european about 75% of their genetic composition is indigenous american, at least historically. Even though their religion is catholic and language a creole, their culture and myths are indigenous.

  5. #30
    Regular Member Achievements:
    1000 Experience Points1 year registered
    Anthro-inclined's Avatar
    Join Date
    13-11-12
    Location
    Toronto
    Posts
    226
    Points
    2,342
    Level
    13
    Points: 2,342, Level: 13
    Level completed: 64%, Points required for next Level: 108
    Overall activity: 3.0%


    Country: Canada



    Quote Originally Posted by nordicfoyer View Post

    **EDIT II** That man-tiger or man-lion comparison might be off. Bear. Look into bear and it's importance for these peoples.
    Not really sure how you mean, nobody knows exactly what these peoples believed, as this figurine dates to 30000 years ago. I was trying to prove a correlation to shamanism, could you elaborate on how i was off. The first practice of shamanism is believed to be in Europe.

  6. #31
    Regular Member Achievements:
    1000 Experience Points1 year registered

    Join Date
    20-11-12
    Posts
    577
    Points
    3,220
    Level
    16
    Points: 3,220, Level: 16
    Level completed: 43%, Points required for next Level: 230
    Overall activity: 19.0%


    Country: Canada



    Quote Originally Posted by Anthro-inclined View Post
    my good lord i suspected that you didnt really know what you were talking about, but to not know the difference between Polytheism and Animism is pretty sad, considering your still defending your uninformed view. please take a class in religious philosophy go online and do some research, i really see no point in arguing with you at this point, until you can adquetly defend your argument without splitting hairs.
    what is sad is to bring up animism out of desperation, when asked for an example of monotheism in pre-christian europe. Polytheism = many gods, and animism fits that profile. Whether you continue to argue or not is your business.

  7. #32
    Regular Member Achievements:
    1000 Experience Points1 year registered
    Anthro-inclined's Avatar
    Join Date
    13-11-12
    Location
    Toronto
    Posts
    226
    Points
    2,342
    Level
    13
    Points: 2,342, Level: 13
    Level completed: 64%, Points required for next Level: 108
    Overall activity: 3.0%


    Country: Canada



    Quote Originally Posted by kamani View Post
    what is sad is to bring up animism out of desperation, when asked for an example of monotheism in pre-christian europe. Polytheism = many gods, and animism fits that profile. Whether you continue to argue or not is your business.
    in animism one specific animal contains a spirit that is connected to the entirety of the spirit world, that animal is not a god in itself. in Polytheism there are specific Gods who are characterized by specific traits and are beleived to be responsible for certain phenomena. Do I really have to teach you an entire course here.If you are so adaminte to defend this, give me one source that says animism is a type of polythiesm.
    Also if youd notice i also brought up shamanism as a pre polythiestic religion so what else do you want to see to disprove your uninformed views.

  8. #33
    Regular Member Achievements:
    1000 Experience Points1 year registered

    Join Date
    20-11-12
    Posts
    577
    Points
    3,220
    Level
    16
    Points: 3,220, Level: 16
    Level completed: 43%, Points required for next Level: 230
    Overall activity: 19.0%


    Country: Canada



    Quote Originally Posted by Anthro-inclined View Post
    in animism one specific animal contains a spirit that is connected to the entirety of the spirit world, that animal is not a god in itself. in Polytheism there are specific Gods who are characterized by specific traits and are beleived to be responsible for certain phenomena. Do I really have to teach you an entire course here.If you are so adaminte to defend this, give me one source that says animism is a type of polythiesm.
    Also if youd notice i also brought up shamanism as a pre polythiestic religion so what else do you want to see to disprove your uninformed views.
    You're not disproving anything, just playing with words to get away from getting caught not having an example of monotheism in pre-christian europe.
    There are 3 possibilities: (no god),(1 god) or (many gods). You're saying shamanism and animism are in the (no god) category. Well, they would be if they had no supernatural beings; once you have supernatural beings, you have gods. The only way to get out of that is to say not all supernatural beings are gods, but then we're just playing with words and splitting hairs.

  9. #34
    Regular Member Achievements:
    1000 Experience Points1 year registered
    Anthro-inclined's Avatar
    Join Date
    13-11-12
    Location
    Toronto
    Posts
    226
    Points
    2,342
    Level
    13
    Points: 2,342, Level: 13
    Level completed: 64%, Points required for next Level: 108
    Overall activity: 3.0%


    Country: Canada



    Quote Originally Posted by kamani View Post
    You're not disproving anything, just playing with words to get away from getting caught not having an example of monotheism in pre-christian europe.
    There are 3 possibilities: (no god),(1 god) or (many gods). You're saying shamanism and animism are in the (no god) category. Well, they would be if they had no supernatural beings; once you have supernatural beings, you have gods. The only way to get out of that is to say not all supernatural beings are gods, but then we're just playing with words and splitting hairs.
    im pretty sure anybody who knows anything about the study of religious philosopies knows this definition of theisms is incorrect , but go ahead and believe it, clearly i cant make you look up anything other than your own opinion. Also its quite funny how you said i was splitting hairs, when your entire argument is based on that. Still it seems that all this argument has become is who will get the last word
    so really is there any point in carrying this on, why dont you post something about the actual topic instead of squabbling over a definition

  10. #35
    Regular Member Achievements:
    1000 Experience Points1 year registered

    Join Date
    20-11-12
    Posts
    577
    Points
    3,220
    Level
    16
    Points: 3,220, Level: 16
    Level completed: 43%, Points required for next Level: 230
    Overall activity: 19.0%


    Country: Canada



    Quote Originally Posted by Anthro-inclined View Post
    im pretty sure anybody who knows anything about the study of religious philosopies knows this definition of theisms is incorrect
    I present simple logic which is completely ignored by vaguely calling upon mainstream authority on the subject. I guess there is no point continuing this argument.

  11. #36
    Regular Member Achievements:
    OverdriveVeteran5000 Experience Points

    Join Date
    27-02-13
    Posts
    236
    Points
    9,129
    Level
    28
    Points: 9,129, Level: 28
    Level completed: 64%, Points required for next Level: 221
    Overall activity: 0%


    Ethnic group
    english,bavaria.thats all i know
    Country: USA - Alabama



    maybe the vanir is reopresentation of the native and the asir is representtaion of the indo-europeans

  12. #37
    Regular Member Achievements:
    Tagger Second ClassThree FriendsVeteran5000 Experience Points
    Templar's Avatar
    Join Date
    23-10-11
    Posts
    622
    Points
    7,898
    Level
    26
    Points: 7,898, Level: 26
    Level completed: 58%, Points required for next Level: 252
    Overall activity: 1.0%


    Ethnic group
    Paleolithic European
    Country: Bosnia & Herzegovina



    Quote Originally Posted by tjlowery87 View Post
    maybe the vanir is reopresentation of the native and the asir is representtaion of the indo-europeans
    I just found this on wikipedia: "the Vanir appear to have mainly been connected with cultivation and fertility and the Æsir were connected with power and war".

    If that bit of information is actually true, then you might be onto something. Paleolithic Europeans are widely known for their matriarchal fertility-oriented societies, while Indo-Europeans were obviously known for conquest and war (use of chariots, bronze weapons).

  13. #38
    Regular Member Achievements:
    1000 Experience Points1 year registered
    Anthro-inclined's Avatar
    Join Date
    13-11-12
    Location
    Toronto
    Posts
    226
    Points
    2,342
    Level
    13
    Points: 2,342, Level: 13
    Level completed: 64%, Points required for next Level: 108
    Overall activity: 3.0%


    Country: Canada



    Quote Originally Posted by tjlowery87 View Post
    maybe the vanir is reopresentation of the native and the asir is representtaion of the indo-europeans
    Very good theory, seems very plausible. Its pretty great when you get some tangible results from a thread, so back to the original question, we can probably agree that people who had first conceptualized Odin or a figure like him, were most
    likely in europe during the paleolithic or mesolithic, with this in mind it seems quite possible that the majority of their Y dna was I.

  14. #39
    Regular Member Achievements:
    Tagger Second ClassOverdriveVeteran5000 Experience Points
    nordicfoyer's Avatar
    Join Date
    25-01-13
    Posts
    200
    Points
    7,524
    Level
    25
    Points: 7,524, Level: 25
    Level completed: 95%, Points required for next Level: 26
    Overall activity: 0%

    Y-DNA haplogroup
    I1 (M253)
    MtDNA haplogroup
    H

    Ethnic group
    European mix
    Country: United States



    Anthro- regarding the illustration you posted, I think you were onto something showing the human/animal hybrid figurine and that this type of thinking probably played an important role in how these people referenced their surroundings and their place in it. However, I don't think the animal was supposed to be a lion, a cougar, or a tiger though. I think the animal was a bear.

    And I was of the opinion the scholars had Odin belonging to hg R peoples.

  15. #40
    Regular Member Achievements:
    1000 Experience Points1 year registered
    Anthro-inclined's Avatar
    Join Date
    13-11-12
    Location
    Toronto
    Posts
    226
    Points
    2,342
    Level
    13
    Points: 2,342, Level: 13
    Level completed: 64%, Points required for next Level: 108
    Overall activity: 3.0%


    Country: Canada



    Quote Originally Posted by nordicfoyer View Post
    Anthro- regarding the illustration you posted, I think you were onto something showing the human/animal hybrid figurine and that this type of thinking probably played an important role in how these people referenced their surroundings and their place in it. However, I don't think the animal was supposed to be a lion, a cougar, or a tiger though. I think the animal was a bear.

    And I was of the opinion the scholars had Odin belonging to hg R peoples.
    Ah, ok, the name that archeologists gave it was the lion man, however i agree with you seems more probable that it was a bear, it seems like a very important animal
    to our paleolithic ancestors as you refrenced in your previous quote, but it could also be a smilodon. Thanks for clearing that up.

  16. #41
    Regular Member Achievements:
    Veteran5000 Experience Points
    St Delcambre's Avatar
    Join Date
    04-12-09
    Posts
    54
    Points
    8,108
    Level
    26
    Points: 8,108, Level: 26
    Level completed: 93%, Points required for next Level: 42
    Overall activity: 0%

    Y-DNA haplogroup
    I1a3a1c
    MtDNA haplogroup
    U2e1a

    Ethnic group
    French (Nord region) ancestry
    Country: United States



    Quote Originally Posted by sparkey View Post
    Since Wotan/Woden/etc. all seem to have been the chief deity in their respective culture, Wotanaz likely replaced Tiwaz as chief deity back during the proto-Germanic period, or earlier.



    Lugus is even more fascinating a mythological figure than Odin IMHO.

    I've read that a possible pre-proto-Germanic form of Wotanaz as *Wātinos. This could refer to him as being god of poets or prophets... think of Celtic vates. And who would have been the god of the Celtic vates? Presumably Lugus.
    Sparkey, do you happen to know which tribes/worshiping populations were associated with each particular variant? I've had trouble finding information on the subject. For instance, I've read that The Franks used the variant of "Wuotan" in their particular Germanic mythology, but I'm interested in tying in population/tribe groups to the other versions of the name.

  17. #42
    Great Adventurer Achievements:
    Three FriendsTagger Second ClassOverdriveVeteran50000 Experience Points
    Awards:
    Arm of Law
    sparkey's Avatar
    Join Date
    17-02-11
    Location
    California
    Posts
    2,270
    Points
    68,877
    Level
    81
    Points: 68,877, Level: 81
    Level completed: 49%, Points required for next Level: 873
    Overall activity: 16.0%

    Y-DNA haplogroup
    I2c1 PF3892+ (Swiss)
    MtDNA haplogroup
    U4a (Cornish)

    Ethnic group
    3/4 Colonial American, 1/8 Cornish, 1/8 Welsh
    Country: USA - California



    1 out of 1 members found this post helpful.
    Quote Originally Posted by St Delcambre View Post
    Sparkey, do you happen to know which tribes/worshiping populations were associated with each particular variant? I've had trouble finding information on the subject. For instance, I've read that The Franks used the variant of "Wuotan" in their particular Germanic mythology, but I'm interested in tying in population/tribe groups to the other versions of the name.
    I don't think I have an exhaustive list, and I believe it even varied within tribes. I have:

    Alemanni: Wuodan
    Anglo-Saxons: Wôden and Ƿōden
    Lombards: Godan
    Norse: Óðinn
    Saxons: Wôden
    Suebi: Wodan

    There are plenty more variations...

  18. #43
    Elite member Achievements:
    Three FriendsVeteran25000 Experience Points

    Join Date
    25-10-11
    Location
    Brittany
    Age
    70
    Posts
    4,380
    Points
    37,785
    Level
    59
    Points: 37,785, Level: 59
    Level completed: 95%, Points required for next Level: 65
    Overall activity: 19.0%

    Y-DNA haplogroup
    R1b - L21/S145*
    MtDNA haplogroup
    H3c

    Ethnic group
    more celtic
    Country: France



    Sparkey, is there a link between the lombard (what period?) GODAN and the pangermanic word 'GOD' ???
    or is it a late local evolution in Lombardia (celtic gaulish influence?:W- >> GW- >> G(o)-???) not shared with other Germanics?
    thank beforehand

  19. #44
    Great Adventurer Achievements:
    Three FriendsTagger Second ClassOverdriveVeteran50000 Experience Points
    Awards:
    Arm of Law
    sparkey's Avatar
    Join Date
    17-02-11
    Location
    California
    Posts
    2,270
    Points
    68,877
    Level
    81
    Points: 68,877, Level: 81
    Level completed: 49%, Points required for next Level: 873
    Overall activity: 16.0%

    Y-DNA haplogroup
    I2c1 PF3892+ (Swiss)
    MtDNA haplogroup
    U4a (Cornish)

    Ethnic group
    3/4 Colonial American, 1/8 Cornish, 1/8 Welsh
    Country: USA - California



    1 out of 1 members found this post helpful.
    Quote Originally Posted by MOESAN View Post
    Sparkey, is there a link between the lombard (what period?) GODAN and the pangermanic word 'GOD' ???
    or is it a late local evolution in Lombardia (celtic gaulish influence?:W- >> GW- >> G(o)-???) not shared with other Germanics?
    thank beforehand
    The time period relevant to Lombards using "Godan" is the 7th century, most importantly in the Origo Gentis Langobardorum. As for connections to the word "God"... good question. I dunno.

  20. #45
    Regular Member Achievements:
    Veteran5000 Experience Points
    St Delcambre's Avatar
    Join Date
    04-12-09
    Posts
    54
    Points
    8,108
    Level
    26
    Points: 8,108, Level: 26
    Level completed: 93%, Points required for next Level: 42
    Overall activity: 0%

    Y-DNA haplogroup
    I1a3a1c
    MtDNA haplogroup
    U2e1a

    Ethnic group
    French (Nord region) ancestry
    Country: United States



    Thank you sir, very helpful!

  21. #46
    Elite member Achievements:
    Three FriendsVeteran25000 Experience Points

    Join Date
    25-10-11
    Location
    Brittany
    Age
    70
    Posts
    4,380
    Points
    37,785
    Level
    59
    Points: 37,785, Level: 59
    Level completed: 95%, Points required for next Level: 65
    Overall activity: 19.0%

    Y-DNA haplogroup
    R1b - L21/S145*
    MtDNA haplogroup
    H3c

    Ethnic group
    more celtic
    Country: France



    Quote Originally Posted by sparkey View Post
    The time period relevant to Lombards using "Godan" is the 7th century, most importantly in the Origo Gentis Langobardorum. As for connections to the word "God"... good question. I dunno.

    thanks
    so, after colonization of N Italy - the continental celtic evolution W>GW seems sensible - so too, no link (apprently) with germanic general term 'god'

    am I wrong?

  22. #47
    Regular Member Achievements:
    1000 Experience PointsVeteran

    Join Date
    27-03-13
    Location
    birmingham
    Posts
    17
    Points
    3,167
    Level
    16
    Points: 3,167, Level: 16
    Level completed: 30%, Points required for next Level: 283
    Overall activity: 4.0%

    Y-DNA haplogroup
    I1 i m253-1313
    MtDNA haplogroup
    H2a1

    Ethnic group
    english,irish,welsh
    Country: United Kingdom



    In anglo saxon worship Tiw or Tyr was the god of war and Odin the all father but I am sure someone will enlighten me further.

  23. #48
    Regular Member Achievements:
    OverdriveVeteran5000 Experience Points

    Join Date
    27-02-13
    Posts
    236
    Points
    9,129
    Level
    28
    Points: 9,129, Level: 28
    Level completed: 64%, Points required for next Level: 221
    Overall activity: 0%


    Ethnic group
    english,bavaria.thats all i know
    Country: USA - Alabama



    so basically the start of Germanic paganism is when the i1 native religion blended with the indo Europeans religons.???????

  24. #49
    Regular Member Achievements:
    Overdrive1000 Experience Points3 months registered
    Fire Haired's Avatar
    Join Date
    24-06-13
    Posts
    689
    Points
    4,121
    Level
    18
    Points: 4,121, Level: 18
    Level completed: 68%, Points required for next Level: 129
    Overall activity: 42.0%

    Y-DNA haplogroup
    R1b Df27(Spain)
    MtDNA haplogroup
    U5b2a2(Prussia)

    Ethnic group
    Celto-Germanic, Latino(~6%)
    Country: USA - California



    Quote Originally Posted by tjlowery87 View Post
    did the ancestors of i1 worship the gods odin and thor(not sure where to post this),i read that on a diffrent site, folks here seem more knowledgeable.

    thank you
    no they did not the invading proto Germans whp had Y DNA r1b U106 and conquered native scandnavien I1 where the first people to worship oden and thor they also brought y DNA I2a2 but they got that after conquering native people in Germany they also brought red hair which only exists in the areas of R1b L11 and its descendants except for the udmurts and in Indo Iranien Indo Europeans who migrated to asia don't get confused just because the indo iranien name sound mid eastern the first speakers where European because we have their remains and because u see alot of European traits like blonde hair in Indo Iranien areas in asia

    in Germanic tradition Thor has long red hair and a huge red hair and like i said red hair in almost all of Europe is from R1b L11 Indo Europeans so the whole Norse gods thing is not from native Scandinavians and norse mythology is in the Indo European religion family along with hinduism but many I1 people like Vikings did worship thor and oden

  25. #50
    Regular Member Achievements:
    OverdriveVeteran5000 Experience Points

    Join Date
    27-02-13
    Posts
    236
    Points
    9,129
    Level
    28
    Points: 9,129, Level: 28
    Level completed: 64%, Points required for next Level: 221
    Overall activity: 0%


    Ethnic group
    english,bavaria.thats all i know
    Country: USA - Alabama



    r1b u106 did not become Germanic until they mixed with r1a and i1,if they never mixed then it would mostly be some kind of celtic.

Page 2 of 3 FirstFirst 123 LastLast

Posting Permissions

  • You may not post new threads
  • You may not post replies
  • You may not post attachments
  • You may not edit your posts
  •