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Thread: gods odin,thor

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    gods odin,thor

    did the ancestors of i1 worship the gods odin and thor(not sure where to post this),i read that on a diffrent site, folks here seem more knowledgeable.

    thank you

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    And ancestors of R1b and ancestors of R1a.
    Be wary of people who tend to glorify the past, underestimate the present, and demonize the future.

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    This is a very interesting topic, the mythical figure of Odin is actually thought to predate the arrival of the indo europeans. which culture was the first to conceptualize Odin is up for debate, but due to sole geographical worship in northern Europe, where the Neolithic migrations were very limited in their genetic and cultural influence its highley likely that the worship of Odin is a paleolithic remanant in Europe, so it could be guessed that the majority of Odin worshippers 6000 years ago were mostly I. As for the worship of Thor, this seems to me to be related to the polytheistic religions brought by the indo europeans, like zeus and some Celtic deities.

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    To elaborate on my first reply, it is my belief that the concept of the wanderer predates the indo europeans, as of recent anthropologists and arcaeologists seem to agree that odin
    coincides with the arrival of the proto germanic people. It is my belief however that the concept of a god of wisdom who displayed traits like odin was worshiped well back in european prehistory,

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    1 members found this post helpful.
    Since many, probably most, of the I1 in the world were at one point part of the pre-Christian Germanic population, it seems unavoidable that many worshiped Odin and Thor, or other derivations from their proto-Germanic variants, Wodanaz and Thunraz.

    I will say that I'm inclined to believe the theory that Wodanaz was not the chief Germanic deity at one point, but rather came to replace Tiwaz (Norse Tyr), who is a much more obvious parallel to Greek Zeus, Roman Jupiter, etc. As to the exact origins of Wodanaz, I think it's far from resolved.

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    Quote Originally Posted by sparkey View Post
    Since many, probably most, of the I1 in the world were at one point part of the pre-Christian Germanic population, it seems unavoidable that many worshiped Odin and Thor, or other derivations from their proto-Germanic variants, Wodanaz and Thunraz.

    I will say that I'm inclined to believe the theory that Wodanaz was not the chief Germanic deity at one point, but rather came to replace Tiwaz (Norse Tyr), who is a much more obvious parallel to Greek Zeus, Roman Jupiter, etc. As to the exact origins of Wodanaz, I think it's far from resolved.
    Do you believe this theory also applies to other variants such as Wuotan/Wotan/Wodin/etc..?

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    Parallels between Odin and the celtic deity Lugus (Lugaid) have been found: both are intellectual gods, commanding magic and poetry.
    http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Lugus
    Interestingly, in Albanian there is the word "Lugat / Lugad" which means specter/devil, probably a negative connotation given to him in christian times.

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    This is a great thread, im really interested in Odin and his origins. I was looking into norse mythology and other northern Germanic pagan religions, and the origins
    and relationships are very hard to determine to say the least. There is also much creidence to believe that many cultural figures in our modern day, are believed to stem from these religions. Another point that can back up some Norse figures, like Odin, were worshipped in european prehistory, is that the Germanic languages are believed to have a substrate that is non indo european, and many words and structures in germanic languages are non indo european. I theorize that the germanic pagan religions could also contain elements of pre indo european religions, just like the languages.

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    Quote Originally Posted by Anthro-inclined View Post
    This is a great thread, im really interested in Odin and his origins. I was looking into norse mythology and other northern Germanic pagan religions, and the origins
    and relationships are very hard to determine to say the least. There is also much creidence to believe that many cultural figures in our modern day, are believed to stem from these religions. Another point that can back up some Norse figures, like Odin, were worshipped in european prehistory, is that the Germanic languages are believed to have a substrate that is non indo european, and many words and structures in germanic languages are non indo european. I theorize that the germanic pagan religions could also contain elements of pre indo european religions, just like the languages.

    never thought of it like that

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    Quote Originally Posted by St Delcambre View Post
    Do you believe this theory also applies to other variants such as Wuotan/Wotan/Wodin/etc..?
    Since Wotan/Woden/etc. all seem to have been the chief deity in their respective culture, Wotanaz likely replaced Tiwaz as chief deity back during the proto-Germanic period, or earlier.

    Quote Originally Posted by kamani View Post
    Parallels between Odin and the celtic deity Lugus (Lugaid) have been found: both are intellectual gods, commanding magic and poetry.
    http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Lugus
    Interestingly, in Albanian there is the word "Lugat / Lugad" which means specter/devil, probably a negative connotation given to him in christian times.
    Lugus is even more fascinating a mythological figure than Odin IMHO.

    I've read that a possible pre-proto-Germanic form of Wotanaz as *Wātinos. This could refer to him as being god of poets or prophets... think of Celtic vates. And who would have been the god of the Celtic vates? Presumably Lugus.

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    Holle is theorized to be an ancient Germanic supreme being who predates most of the Germanic pantheon, dating back to the Neolithic before Indo-European invasion of Europe.[citation needed] She also appears as "Frau Holle" ("Mother Hulda") in Grimm's Fairy Tale #24. Alternative names for this goddess include Holla, Holda, Hulda, Hilde, Hilda, and many others

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    1 members found this post helpful.
    I also had Odin as coming from the East (possibly with the arrival of R1a?). Very early I1 and I2 religious practices are difficult to peg because of scant artifacts and of course the lack of written language. I have paleo/meso I1 focused more on fertility rites, and as R1a and R1b settled in... they brought with them the mind set of the Russian steppes (more aggressive thinking, male Gods, larger focus on battle).

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    1 members found this post helpful.
    Quote Originally Posted by nordicfoyer View Post
    I also had Odin as coming from the East (possibly with the arrival of R1a?). Very early I1 and I2 religious practices are difficult to peg because of scant artifacts and of course the lack of written language. I have paleo/meso I1 focused more on fertility rites, and as R1a and R1b settled in... they brought with them the mind set of the Russian steppes (more aggressive thinking, male Gods, larger focus on battle).
    Actually Odin fits in with fertility gods, as he often considered part of of the Vanir, the gods of norse mythology who are associated with fertility and wisdom. Odin and the things associated with him are not war like or agressive. This is also interesting, its an archeological find from Britain, from the pre indo european Britons, from around 2250 BC, definetly long before the celts.
    www.abc.net.au/science/news/ancient/AncientRepublish_1187944.htm

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    Quote Originally Posted by tjlowery87 View Post
    Holle is theorized to be an ancient Germanic supreme being who predates most of the Germanic pantheon, dating back to the Neolithic before Indo-European invasion of Europe.[citation needed] She also appears as "Frau Holle" ("Mother Hulda") in Grimm's Fairy Tale #24. Alternative names for this goddess include Holla, Holda, Hulda, Hilde, Hilda, and many others
    That's interesting, Holle in albanian mean "aunt", but is also used as a sign of respect for a female person of age/authority. Just to connect the dots, in the neolithic many tribes were matriarchal obeying an aged female leader, as the source of life for the tribe. They had little knowledge that males contributed to procreation.

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    isnt the celtic pantheon a central european version of the north european germanic pantheon

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    Quote Originally Posted by Anthro-inclined View Post
    As for the worship of Thor, this seems to me to be related to the polytheistic religions brought by the indo europeans, like zeus and some Celtic deities.
    Every religion in europe pre-dating christianity was polytheistic. According to Freud, monotheism was first introduced by an egyptian pharaoh (forgot the name), who needed a cult of the individual (himself) for controlling a large empire. Then it was adopted by egyptian jewish slaves into judaism (exodus etc). Only in recent roman times did monotheism spread in europe, for the same reason it was needed in egypt (to control the empire under one ruler). Same story with islam and the ottoman empire, or confucianism in china.

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    Quote Originally Posted by kamani View Post
    Every religion in europe pre-dating christianity was polytheistic. According to Freud, monotheism was first introduced by an egyptian pharaoh (forgot the name), who needed a cult of the individual (himself) for controlling a large empire. Then it was adopted by egyptian jewish slaves into judaism (exodus etc). Only in recent roman times did monotheism spread in europe, for the same reason it was needed in egypt (to control the empire under one ruler). Same story with islam and the ottoman empire, or confucianism in china.
    Ok this is a very large claim, one cannot know for sure if every religion before christianity was polytheistic, we have no documentation to prove such claims, and dont use Freud as a source, much of what he said was speculation as he was the first in his field, and since when is freud a historian
    Also polytheism isnt as old as one might think, as many indigenous religions are animistic, believing that the spirit lives within everything, so this was most likely practiced in europe before monotheism and polytheism, this can be justified by the cave paintings across europe that seem to paint pictures of animals and associate them with spiritual things. I connected Thor to the indo europeans, because he displayed traits that mirrored their kind of Polytheism.
    Also your history of christianity is a conspiracy theory, go make a thread about that somewhere else.

    EDIT; also polytheism can be tied to the advent of agriculture and animal husbandry, as societies that developed agriculture started to have polytheistic religions, like the people of the early middle east and the cherokee of north america.

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    Like sparkey I agree Lugus/Lugh is a very interesting character. However personally, I find Odin just a little more interesting.
    From being turned out of the heavens and becoming a "wanderer", Odin as he progresses outside the Germanic boundaries develops to become as we see him later, the All-Father.
    Taking on more roles Odin eventually replaced Tyr who then in some writings is shown as Odins son, even though he may have been considered father of the gods himself at an earlier point. [ I know this was already stated ]
    To a degree when we find Lugus he has pretty much an established personality, Odin on the other hand seems to be ever developing. He has many names and forms and seems to fill almost all the necessary roles from mystic, to guide of the dead to Valhalla, fertility god, judge, god of war and of course the runes etc. He seemed to be the preferred god of the more elite,in later times ,perhaps as a result of the many things he becomes associated with such as writing, poetry and law making.
    He did seem to become more civilised as time passed.

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    Quote Originally Posted by Anthro-inclined View Post
    and since when is freud a historian
    Freud was actually very knowledged on the history of judaism (not to mention he was jewish, so not interested in writing lies about his people); he wrote a whole book on this subject, titled "Moses and Monotheism".

    Quote Originally Posted by Anthro-inclined View Post
    Also your history of christianity is a conspiracy theory
    It is not if you have read about roman emperor Konstantine the Great and how he legalized christianity and made it a state religion.

    another example: why would the spanish minority insist on converting the american indians to christianity?

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    1 members found this post helpful.
    Quote Originally Posted by kamani View Post
    Freud was actually very knowledged on the history of judaism (not to mention he was jewish, so not interested in writing lies about his people); he wrote a whole book on this subject, titled "Moses and Monotheism".
    He also conducted most of his work nearly 100 years ago, so a lot has changed in the field of anthropology and history.I didn't disagree with you when saying monotheism arrived recently, i disagreed with you saying that every religion in Europe pre Christianity was polytheistic. So I don't see much point in arguing this further.


    Quote Originally Posted by kamani View Post
    It is not if you have read about roman emperor Konstantine the Great and how he legalized christianity and made it a state religion.
    Don't know what this has to with Norse paganism.

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    Quote Originally Posted by Anthro-inclined View Post
    I didn't disagree with you when saying monotheism arrived recently, i disagreed with you saying that every religion in Europe pre Christianity was polytheistic.
    I'm genuinely interested in knowing about a monotheistic pre-christian religion in europe.
    Quote Originally Posted by Anthro-inclined View Post
    Don't know what this has to with Norse paganism.
    nothing, just responding to the conspiracy theory comment.

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    Quote Originally Posted by kamani View Post
    I'm genuinely interested in knowing about a monotheistic pre-christian religion in europe.
    nothing, just responding to the conspiracy theory comment.
    Read carefully, in my last post i said that ANIMISM was practiced in europe before polytheism, go back and read my post. Polytheism hasnt been around for that long, probably only 10000 years, before this as hunter gatherers all humans believed that the spirit world is in everthing around us( Animism ). Human history in Europe goes back 40000 years, to say that one religious form ( Polytheism ) was the only one practiced up until 2000 years ago, is ridiculous.

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    Another theism most likely in Europe during the paleolithic was Shamanism, this was probably the dominant type during the Aurignacian and Gravettian periods, as attested by their artifacts, like the lion man figurine. This imagery mirrors the beliefs in shamanism and the spirit world, this hybrid between a man and a lion, seems very likely to have been discovered through a vision of some sort, but this is just my theory. This imagery also shows similarities between the Cree people in Canada, who have historically practiced shamanism, and their beliefs in transformations. Read this article, if you have any knowledge of the artifacts discovered form the European paleolithic you'll be able to make connections, or perhaps not, just my opinion.
    http://www.thecanadianencyclopedia.c...riginal-people
    Also im trying to find a connection between a figure like Odin and Shamanism, one can extract a few theories but none i am confident enough to talk about at this moment, need to do more research.

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    i imagine the pre germanic i1 worshipped some kind of storm deity

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    Quote Originally Posted by Anthro-inclined View Post
    This is a great thread, im really interested in Odin and his origins. I was looking into norse mythology and other northern Germanic pagan religions, and the origins
    and relationships are very hard to determine to say the least. There is also much creidence to believe that many cultural figures in our modern day, are believed to stem from these religions. Another point that can back up some Norse figures, like Odin, were worshipped in european prehistory, is that the Germanic languages are believed to have a substrate that is non indo european, and many words and structures in germanic languages are non indo european. I theorize that the germanic pagan religions could also contain elements of pre indo european religions, just like the languages.
    That is a great point. If many pre-Indo-European words remained, it makes sense that some of the culture, religion, and traditions did as well. Especially if we assume that Germanic people are more Cro-Magnon/Paleolithic European genetically than Indo-European.

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