Eupedia Forums
Site NavigationEupedia Top > Eupedia Forum & Japan Forum
Page 1 of 5 123 ... LastLast
Results 1 to 25 of 108

Thread: Major new paper on Bulgarian Y-chromosomal haplogroups.

  1. #1
    Satyavrata Maciamo's Avatar
    Join Date
    17-07-02
    Location
    Lothier
    Posts
    9,416


    Ethnic group
    Italo-celto-germanic
    Country: Belgium - Brussels



    2 members found this post helpful.

    Post Major new paper on Bulgarian Y-chromosomal haplogroups.

    PLOS ONE just released Y-Chromosome Diversity in Modern Bulgarians: New Clues about Their Ancestry by Karachanak et al. Bulgaria was relatively undersampled to this day. This study, sampling 808 lineages from each of the 9 Bulgarian provinces, will provide valuable new insight, especially since it is the first research to look into the deep subclades of haplogroups G (10 subclades tested !), J2, Q, and R1b (8 subclades). It is a major improvement from the Bulgarian study by the same team five years ago, which didn't even differentiate the three main branches of I (I1, I2-M223 and I2-M423). Haplogroups non-listed in the table (C, H, L, R2) decrease by 0.7%.

    Compared to the data I had computed on the Y-DNA tables (which I will update soon), this study shows a slightly higher frequency for haplogroups R1a (+2.5%), E1b1b (+2.1%), R1b (+2%) J1 (+1.5%), T (+1%), I1 (+0.8%), G (+0.8%), and N (+0.5%), but a lower percentage for J2 (-5%) and I2-M423 (-2%). The remaining I2-M223 and Q have virtually unchanged frequencies.

    G-P303 (G2a1c2a in the present ISOGG nomenclature) is the dominant branch of G2a in Bulgaria, amounting to 3.1% of all paternal lineages. Two of its subclades are well represented : L497 (1.9%) and U1 (0.5%). Other forms of G2a only have trace frequencies, but nevertheless show a remarkable diversity. There were even samples of G2a* (P15).

    In the Kurgan hypothesis, the scenario I favour for the spread of Indo-European people and languages, I postulated that R1b migrated from Anatolia to the Pontic Steppe in the Neolithic, then invaded the Danube basin from the late Chalcolithic and early Bronze Age, starting by roughly 5500 ybp. To confirm that hypothesis, R1b subclades should show some kind a gradient in time from east to west. In other words older subclades like L23 should be most common in Southeast Europe, then decrease in frequency towards Western Europe, where newer subclades arose. This is exactly what we observe here, as the main Bulgarian subclade of R1b is L23, which makes up half of all R1b lineages. Most of the other R1b lineages are later Celtic, Roman or Germanic arrivals, or even older subclades (1% of M269).

    The Celtic R1b-S116 only makes up 0.7% of the Bulgarian gene pool, while the Celto-Roman R1b-U152 is at 2.2%, a frequency in line with those observed in other parts of the Roman Empire outside the U152 homeland (Italy + Alps), be it Iberia, North Africa or Anatolia.

    It's always interesting to try to find traces of Germanic lineages in southern Europe. In this case, it is the Goths who settled in the region in the 3rd century. Typical Germanic haplogroups include I1 (4.3%), I2a2 (former I2b, 1.7%) and R1b-U106 (1.2%). This would appear to confirm my previous estimate that the Goths carried far more I1 and I2b lineages than R1b. Unfortunately no R1a subclades were tested aside from M458, which is a Slavic branch. The Germanic subclade of interest for the Goths is Z284.

    I wish I could comment on the regional variations, but only Sofia and Plovdiv have over 100 samples (the very minimum to be relevant), and some provinces have ridiculous sample sizes (e.g. n=15 for Varna and n=21 for Razgrad).


    The authors of the paper make some bizarre assumptions, on which I will comment below.

    Quote Originally Posted by Karachanak et al.
    We found that the Y-chromosome gene pool in modern Bulgarians is primarily represented by Western Eurasian haplogroups with ~ 40% belonging to haplogroups E-V13 and I-M423, and 20% to R-M17. Haplogroups common in the Middle East (J and G) and in South Western Asia (R-L23*) occur at frequencies of 19% and 5%, respectively.
    Why on earth would they classify E-V13 as Western Eurasian and not Middle Eastern or North African ? There is enough evidence (its presence across the Middle East, North Africa and Iberia) now to be confident that E-V13 did not originate in the Balkans, but probably in Northeast Africa like all other main subclades of E1b1b.

    Note that Karanachak et al. already claimed in their 2008 Bulgarian study that E-V13 reached the Balkans 17,000 years ago and expanded from their in Neolithic times. They haven't learned anything in five years.

    Quote Originally Posted by Karachanak et al.
    The lineage analysis provided the following interesting results: (i) R-L23* is present in Eastern Bulgaria since the post glacial period; (ii) haplogroup E-V13 has a Mesolithic age in Bulgaria from where it expanded after the arrival of farming; (iii) haplogroup J-M241 probably reflects the Neolithic westward expansion of farmers from the earliest sites along the Black Sea.
    In other words they are saying that R1b-L23 and E-V13 were already in Europe before the Neolithic. This is highly unlikely. That is a good example of why one shouldn't assume anything based on the age estimates using STR loci, which have proved unreliable many times before.
    Last edited by Maciamo; 07-03-13 at 13:39.
    My book selection---Follow me on Facebook and Twitter --- My profile on Academia.edu and on ResearchGate ----Check Wa-pedia's Japan Guide
    ----------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------
    "What is the use of living, if it be not to strive for noble causes and to make this muddled world a better place for those who will live in it after we are gone?", Winston Churchill.

  2. #2
    Regular Member
    Join Date
    20-11-12
    Posts
    562


    Country: Canada



    Quote Originally Posted by Maciamo View Post
    It's always interesting to try to find traces of Germanic lineages in southern Europe. In this case, it is the Goths who settled in the region in the 3rd century. Typical Germanic haplogroups include I1 (4.3%), I2a2 (former I2b, 1.7%) and R1b-U106 (1.2%). This would appear to confirm my previous estimate that the Goths carried far more I1 and I2b lineages than R1b.
    That I1 percentage seems too large to be the Goths, have you considered it being the Thracian elite that brought the thracian IE language in the Bronze Age?

  3. #3
    Satyavrata Maciamo's Avatar
    Join Date
    17-07-02
    Location
    Lothier
    Posts
    9,416


    Ethnic group
    Italo-celto-germanic
    Country: Belgium - Brussels



    I have now updated the Y-DNA frequencies for Bulgaria. I have made the total of this study, Rosser et al. (2000) and the latest data from the FTDNA Bulgaria Project (counting only those with the most remote patrilineal ancestor born in Bulgaria).

    EDIT : I also updated the frequencies for Macedonia, adding the Trivodalieva (2010) study to the Pericic (2005) and Bosch (2006) that were used so far. It corrected the extravagant figure of 10% of I1 to a mere 3%. R1b and E1b1b were also reduced by 3% each, while I2-M423 increased significantly (+9%).
    Last edited by Maciamo; 07-03-13 at 15:19.

  4. #4
    Satyavrata Maciamo's Avatar
    Join Date
    17-07-02
    Location
    Lothier
    Posts
    9,416


    Ethnic group
    Italo-celto-germanic
    Country: Belgium - Brussels



    Quote Originally Posted by kamani View Post
    That I1 percentage seems too large to be the Goths, have you considered it being the Thracian elite that brought the thracian IE language in the Bronze Age?
    I really don't see where the Thracians would have got their I1 from. They were not of Nordic or Germanic origin.

    Besides, the percentage of I1 is completely in line with that of neighbouring regions:

    - Serbia = 6% of I1
    - Northern Greece = 5.5%
    - Macedonia = 3%
    - Romania = 2%
    - Albania = 2%
    Last edited by Maciamo; 07-03-13 at 15:12.

  5. #5
    Banned nordicwarrior's Avatar
    Join Date
    11-10-12
    Posts
    958

    Y-DNA haplogroup
    I1 (M253)
    MtDNA haplogroup
    H

    Ethnic group
    European Mix
    Country: United States



    Regarding the claim that E-V13 is Western Eurasian, maybe the thought process was that if it was in the Balkans 17,000 years ago-- the amount of time out of Africa is reaching the span that some of the other non-African hg's have under their belt.

    Agree on the STR loci being unreliable. Too many variables, too much work needs to be done before these can be counted as a proper source.

    In reference to the I1 in Thracians-- the artwork is vivid enough from this time period to get an idea of autosomal contents. If you carefully study the Thracian and Dacian statues it becomes more apparent who might belong to a group from the East, and who might belong to a group from the North.

    I don't know that we can say that there is no genetic Germanic or Nordic influence on Thracians or Dacians.

    Edit-- the E-V13 Western Eurasian claim is somewhat odd... no doubt about it. Maybe authors of these papers should self-identify hg membership at the front of their work. There isn't a field more prone to ego bias than y-haplogroup genetic study afterall.
    Last edited by nordicwarrior; 07-03-13 at 17:56.

  6. #6
    Satyavrata Maciamo's Avatar
    Join Date
    17-07-02
    Location
    Lothier
    Posts
    9,416


    Ethnic group
    Italo-celto-germanic
    Country: Belgium - Brussels



    Quote Originally Posted by nordicfoyer View Post
    Regarding the claim that E-V13 is Western Eurasian, maybe the thought process was that if it was in the Balkans 17,000 years ago-- the amount of time out of Africa is reaching the span that some of the other non-African hg's have under their belt.
    If E-V13 indeed arrived in the Balkans 17,000 years ago, then yes, it could be called Western Eurasian. But the odds are far higher that it came from the Levant with Neolithic farmers and reached Bulgaria around 7,000 years ago.

  7. #7
    Regular Member Wilhelm's Avatar
    Join Date
    02-10-09
    Location
    Spain
    Posts
    1,661

    Y-DNA haplogroup
    R1b-S26
    MtDNA haplogroup
    H1

    Ethnic group
    Celtiberians
    Country: Spain - Catalonia



    Maciamo, there was an E-V13 sample found from the Mesolithic in the Balkans, so it was definately there before neolithic.

  8. #8
    Regular Member Anthro-inclined's Avatar
    Join Date
    13-11-12
    Location
    Toronto
    Posts
    215


    Country: Canada



    Quote Originally Posted by Wilhelm View Post
    Maciamo, there was an E-V13 sample found from the Mesolithic in the Balkans, so it was definately there before neolithic.
    Are you talking about the find from spain, because that was neolithic, or was it another. Can you provide a link to site with info on it.

  9. #9
    Regular Member
    Join Date
    14-10-11
    Posts
    1,040

    Y-DNA haplogroup
    Yes
    MtDNA haplogroup
    Yes

    Ethnic group
    German
    Country: Germany



    Quote Originally Posted by kamani View Post
    That I1 percentage seems too large to be the Goths, have you considered it being the Thracian elite that brought the thracian IE language in the Bronze Age?
    Not Thracian, but part of I1 in the Balkans could be slavic. North slavs have slightly more I1.

  10. #10
    Regular Member
    Join Date
    19-04-12
    Posts
    382


    Country: Finland



    Quote Originally Posted by ElHorsto View Post
    Not Thracian, but part of I1 in the Balkans could be slavic. North slavs have slightly more I1.
    Higly Unlikely, Goths and other tribes are a plausible explanation.
    Also Saxon Miners in Middle Ages.

  11. #11
    Satyavrata Maciamo's Avatar
    Join Date
    17-07-02
    Location
    Lothier
    Posts
    9,416


    Ethnic group
    Italo-celto-germanic
    Country: Belgium - Brussels



    1 members found this post helpful.
    Quote Originally Posted by ElHorsto View Post
    Not Thracian, but part of I1 in the Balkans could be slavic. North slavs have slightly more I1.
    That's twisting history. Slavic I1 are also leftovers from Germanic tribes, either those that lived in Poland before the Slavic migrations in the late Antiquity, those who migrated to Eastern Europe during the Roman period (notably the Goths), Viking settlements in Eastern Europe (especially in Russia), or later German colonisation of Central and Eastern Europe (Poland, Bohemia, Hungary, Romania...). Since the Slavs who settled in Bulgaria didn't come from Poland or Bohemia, they shouldn't have had any I1.

  12. #12
    Satyavrata Maciamo's Avatar
    Join Date
    17-07-02
    Location
    Lothier
    Posts
    9,416


    Ethnic group
    Italo-celto-germanic
    Country: Belgium - Brussels



    Quote Originally Posted by Wilhelm View Post
    Maciamo, there was an E-V13 sample found from the Mesolithic in the Balkans, so it was definately there before neolithic.
    Never heard of that. Please provide your sources.

  13. #13
    Regular Member Templar's Avatar
    Join Date
    23-10-11
    Posts
    589

    Y-DNA haplogroup
    G-L42
    MtDNA haplogroup
    H2a1

    Ethnic group
    Paleolithic European
    Country: Bosnia & Herzegovina



    Were any Mongoloid haplogroups present? The original Bulgars were Turkic people, so it wouldn't surprise if that was the case.

  14. #14
    Regular Member
    Join Date
    17-12-11
    Location
    Sofia
    Posts
    339

    Y-DNA haplogroup
    J-L70
    MtDNA haplogroup
    H2a2a1

    Ethnic group
    Bulgarian
    Country: Bulgaria



    Quote Originally Posted by Maciamo View Post
    Never heard of that. Please provide your sources.
    Please stop spreading rumors that the hard core European E-V13 is North African or Middle Eastern.If this is the truth then R1b is Anatolian and R1a is Central Asian. U always say how R1b is European coz the sublclades are European, well E-V13 is hard core European show me prove of E-V13 more then 3% anywhere in the world beside Europe and Druze are kinda suspicious. How can u say E-V13 is North African, if this is the truth ur favorite R1b is from Cameron. For the rest thank u for u work and thank u for finally posting real results for Bulgaria, now one of the few countries in the world with real results because samples bellow 500 are joke and combined samples also. I hope u will stop being so offensive and stop believing R1b is the only European haplogorup. Regards

  15. #15
    Regular Member
    Join Date
    17-12-11
    Location
    Sofia
    Posts
    339

    Y-DNA haplogroup
    J-L70
    MtDNA haplogroup
    H2a2a1

    Ethnic group
    Bulgarian
    Country: Bulgaria



    Of course not, and the original Bulgars were not Turkic,now also proved by genetics.read it and cry

  16. #16
    Regular Member Templar's Avatar
    Join Date
    23-10-11
    Posts
    589

    Y-DNA haplogroup
    G-L42
    MtDNA haplogroup
    H2a1

    Ethnic group
    Paleolithic European
    Country: Bosnia & Herzegovina



    Quote Originally Posted by Yaan View Post
    Of course not, and the original Bulgars were not Turkic,now also proved by genetics.read it and cry
    I wasn't trying to *****, you are being too emotional and defensive. Also read this:

    http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Bulgars

  17. #17
    Regular Member Anthro-inclined's Avatar
    Join Date
    13-11-12
    Location
    Toronto
    Posts
    215


    Country: Canada



    Quote Originally Posted by Templar View Post
    Were any Mongoloid haplogroups present? The original Bulgars were Turkic people, so it wouldn't surprise if that was the case.
    Read the study, it goes into extensive detail about the original Bulgars, The study says that less than 1.5% of the Bulgarian gene pool can be attributed to central Asian invaders, meaning Haplogroup C and Q. But this is just a segment of what was mentioned , read the study its very interesting.

  18. #18
    Regular Member Templar's Avatar
    Join Date
    23-10-11
    Posts
    589

    Y-DNA haplogroup
    G-L42
    MtDNA haplogroup
    H2a1

    Ethnic group
    Paleolithic European
    Country: Bosnia & Herzegovina



    Quote Originally Posted by Anthro-inclined View Post
    Read the study, it goes into extensive detail about the original Bulgars, The study says that less than 1.5% of the Bulgarian gene pool can be attributed to central Asian invaders, meaning Haplogroup C and Q. But this is just a segment of what was mentioned , read the study its very interesting.
    I was feeling too lazy to read all of it, but I guess I should. Might have some other useful info hidden in there somewhere.

  19. #19
    Regular Member
    Join Date
    17-12-11
    Location
    Sofia
    Posts
    339

    Y-DNA haplogroup
    J-L70
    MtDNA haplogroup
    H2a2a1

    Ethnic group
    Bulgarian
    Country: Bulgaria



    Do not give we wikipedia as example, genetics,looks and language prove u wrong,so stop with the insults. Maybe the idiot Tito wanted us to be Tatars, but not so in the face of all Yugos! U have something from the Turks the religion,we do not so stop with insults

  20. #20
    Regular Member Templar's Avatar
    Join Date
    23-10-11
    Posts
    589

    Y-DNA haplogroup
    G-L42
    MtDNA haplogroup
    H2a1

    Ethnic group
    Paleolithic European
    Country: Bosnia & Herzegovina



    Quote Originally Posted by Yaan View Post
    Do not give we wikipedia as example, genetics,looks and language prove u wrong,so stop with the insults. Maybe the idiot Tito wanted us to be Tatars, but not so in the face of all Yugos! U have something from the Turks the religion,we do not so stop with insults
    I wasn't trying to insult you. Most people believe that the Bulgars were a Turkic tribe (all my American history books do). Also don't use the word "Turks" to encompass both nomadic Turkic groups and the Ottoman Turks; they are completely different in many many ways. Oh and I was born after/during the fall of Yugoslavia so I don't know what you are talking about. This is a intellectual discussion, not a childish nationalist emotion-led flamewar. Chill brah.

  21. #21
    Regular Member
    Join Date
    17-12-11
    Location
    Sofia
    Posts
    339

    Y-DNA haplogroup
    J-L70
    MtDNA haplogroup
    H2a2a1

    Ethnic group
    Bulgarian
    Country: Bulgaria



    Show me one proof genetic or linguistic of ur insulting claim and since u were born after the fall of Yugoslavia do not talk to be about facts.Be proud of what u are offspring of the Muslims Ottomans !

  22. #22
    Regular Member
    Join Date
    17-12-11
    Location
    Sofia
    Posts
    339

    Y-DNA haplogroup
    J-L70
    MtDNA haplogroup
    H2a2a1

    Ethnic group
    Bulgarian
    Country: Bulgaria



    Read the paper!

  23. #23
    Regular Member Templar's Avatar
    Join Date
    23-10-11
    Posts
    589

    Y-DNA haplogroup
    G-L42
    MtDNA haplogroup
    H2a1

    Ethnic group
    Paleolithic European
    Country: Bosnia & Herzegovina



    Quote Originally Posted by Yaan View Post
    Read the paper!
    There is a difference between the group called the Bulgars and moderm-day Bulgarians. Bulgars were a Turkic-Iranic nomadic group. Modern Bulgarians are a mix of Bulgars, Slavs, and the native population.

  24. #24
    Regular Member Templar's Avatar
    Join Date
    23-10-11
    Posts
    589

    Y-DNA haplogroup
    G-L42
    MtDNA haplogroup
    H2a1

    Ethnic group
    Paleolithic European
    Country: Bosnia & Herzegovina



    Quote Originally Posted by Yaan View Post
    Show me one proof genetic or linguistic of ur insulting claim and since u were born after the fall of Yugoslavia do not talk to be about facts.Be proud of what u are offspring of the Muslims Ottomans !
    That is just uncalled for.

    Just read this:
    http://www.britannica.com/EBchecked/topic/84067/Bulgar

    "Bulgar, also called Bulgarian , member of a people known in eastern European history during the Middle Ages. A branch of this people was one of the primary three ethnic ancestors of modern Bulgarians (the other two were Thracians and Slavs).Many scholars posit the origins of the Bulgars as a Turkic tribe of Central Asia (perhaps with Iranian elements) and suggest that they arrived in the European steppe west of the Volga River with the Huns about 370 ce. Retreating with the Huns, they resettled about 460 in an arc of country north and east of the Sea of Azov. Hired by the Byzantines in 480 to fight against the Ostrogoths, the Bulgars subsequently became attracted by the wealth of the Byzantine Empire. In the 6th century the Bulgars continually attacked the Danubian provinces of the Byzantine Empire until, in the 560s, they were themselves threatened by the Avars, who were then advancing from Asia into central Europe. The Avars destroyed one Bulgar tribe, but the rest saved themselves by submitting, for two decades, to another horde of Turkic newcomers, most of whom then retreated back into Asia."

    Pwned.

  25. #25
    Regular Member
    Join Date
    17-12-11
    Location
    Sofia
    Posts
    339

    Y-DNA haplogroup
    J-L70
    MtDNA haplogroup
    H2a2a1

    Ethnic group
    Bulgarian
    Country: Bulgaria



    If u have anything to say on the paper,please do so for the rest it is kinda boring and unpleasant what u r doing!

Page 1 of 5 123 ... LastLast

Tags for this Thread

Posting Permissions

  • You may not post new threads
  • You may not post replies
  • You may not post attachments
  • You may not edit your posts
  •