Major new paper on Bulgarian Y-chromosomal haplogroups.

[nordicwarrior]

- There's a lack of Scandinavian-specific R1a-Z284 in Continental Europe. So, basically the only marker would be I .
There is minimal I1 in goth areas on the continent.

Advise me on which R1b marker


EDIT - I will help you.

of the 39 samples in southern sweden , Geats area i.e scandia. The R1b is made up of
75% U106
13% M167
12% S116

Zanipolo, I may be missing something, but for R1b in Southern Sweden wouldn't you want to consider RS21(U106), S28(U-152), and L21(S145)? I'm going off of Maciamo's updated maps for the area. The different naming systems of FTDNA and the International group have me all confused... are we talking about the same three branches?

 

[zanipolo]

Zanipolo, I may be missing something, but for R1b in Southern Sweden wouldn't you want to consider RS21(U106), S28(U-152), and L21(S145)? I'm going off of Maciamo's updated maps for the area. The different naming systems of FTDNA and the International group have me all confused... are we talking about the same three branches?

Although U106 is there now , it was not in sweden at the time of the goths, U106 came from the continent, so you are left with the others

 

[nordicwarrior]

Well the main point is that R1b makes up the lion share of Goths, regardless of which branch. And I have Goths spending quite some time in Scandinavia and also have I1 as a minor Goth contributor, with their percentages even lower today because of daughtering out.

The heavy I1 line (Swedes) did drive the Goths South out of Scandinavia. So maybe that accounts for what we see in Bulgaria today.

 

[OMG]

How can u speak on Albanians,Serbians and Croats they do not have a sample of at least 500 so it is all fairy tale.

Croats do have a sample of at least 500. More precisely, they have a sample of 1100.

I would have provided you with a link but since I am not allowed to post links until I collect 10 posts, you might want to search google for an article called "Croatian national reference Y-STR haplotype database".

Cheers.

 

[Yaan]

Croats do have a sample of at least 500. More precisely, they have a sample of 1100.

I would have provided you with a link but since I am not allowed to post links until I collect 10 posts, you might want to search google for an article called "Croatian national reference Y-STR haplotype database".

Cheers.

Really interesting!Thanks, but I could not find the results, if u can not post, just write the % for the different groups. Thank u! Cheers!

 

[zanipolo]

Well the main point is that R1b makes up the lion share of Goths, regardless of which branch. And I have Goths spending quite some time in Scandinavia and also have I1 as a minor Goth contributor, with their percentages even lower today because of daughtering out.

The heavy I1 line (Swedes) did drive the Goths South out of Scandinavia. So maybe that accounts for what we see in Bulgaria today.

Doubt that very much.

Scholars are split 50-50 in regards to even having any goths in Sweden....the "goths" in Sweden are the GEATS. Are Geats similar to goths, or the Gutes, are they similar with the goths.

There is a far greater percentage that original goths where R1a

 

[DejaVu]

Are the Bulgarians the descendants of Bulgars or not? If not who are they?

 

[Yaan]

Are the Bulgarians the descendents of Bulgars or not? If not who are they?

Bulgarians are descendants of Bulgars,Thrchians and Slavs!

 

[Yaan]

Would i guys stop speaking about Vikings,Germanics etc in topic about Bulgarians!

 

[DejaVu]

Which haplogroups are connected to the Bulgars, Thracians and Slavs? How many percentage for each in Bulgaria?

 

[Yaan]

Which haplogroups are connected to the Bulgars, Thracians and Slavs? How many percentage for each in Bulgaria?

Genetics does not works like this. MT DNA is uber important as well.
Bulgars were R1a(some subtype),J2(some subtype),G2a(some subtype)
Thrachians were E-V13,G2a(some subtype)J2(some subtype),R1b(some subtype)
Slavs ere R1a(somesubtype),I2a,but E-V13,I1,N(some subtype) were also present
But this is just for u,but u need to understand that genetics does not work like this.
The things that Bulgarians and Volga Tatars share is J2b,I1,R1a so lets be playfull and say these were the Bulgar things but it does not work like this. Also why all this questions about Bulgars in a study about Bulgarians. If the research was about remains of Bulgars,Thrchians or Slavs OK, but it is about the Bulgarians ,who have the blood of all three

 

[Mikewww]

....
In other words they are saying that R1b-L23 and E-V13 were already in Europe before the Neolithic. This is highly unlikely. That is a good example of why one shouldn't assume anything based on the age estimates using STR loci, which have proved unreliable many times before.

I think STR diversity is highly useful, but using a handful or two of STRs is not enough. It is also important to discern potential launch points versus crossroads which could have deceptively high diversity because mixing. Another problem is that many of these studies use evolutionary mutation rates.

Below are the R1b by clade age estimates that I pulled out Marko Heinila's analysis in 2011 along with Anatole Klyosov's summary estimates in his 2012 paper. Heinila has a different method. It's based on STRs still, but uses the "maximum likelihood" method rather than a pure variance based approach. Klyosov does do some checking to see if he feels he has a representative sample. Both were using long haplotypes and doing some STR selection/deselection based on linearity. You can see they are not that much different.

K years before present

Marko Heinila _ Anatole Klyosov

M343_ 14.0 __ 14.0

V88__ _9.5 __ _6.9
v88__ ____ __ _4.3 (Africa)
V69__ ____ __ _4.3

M73__ _7.2 __ _8.0

M269_ _5.7 __ _7.0
L23__ _5.7 __ _6.2
L51__ _4.9 __ _4.9
L11__ _4.8 __ _4.6
U106_ _4.5 __ _4.2
P312_ _4.2 __ _4.2
U152_ _4.2
L2___ _4.2
L21__ _4.2

The above are all based on germ-line mutation rates, but they seem to fit in with the Karafet 2008 SNP counting method of 18.5 k ybp estimate for R1.

Caveat: These are not precise estimates.

 

[Maciamo]

I think STR diversity is highly useful, but using a handful or two of STRs is not enough. It is also important to discern potential launch points versus crossroads which could have deceptively high diversity because mixing. Another problem is that many of these studies use evolutionary mutation rates.

Below are the R1b by clade age estimates that I pulled out Marko Heinila's analysis in 2011 along with Anatole Klyosov's summary estimates in his 2012 paper. Heinila has a different method. It's based on STRs still, but uses the "maximum likelihood" method rather than a pure variance based approach. Klyosov does do some checking to see if he feels he has a representative sample. Both were using long haplotypes and doing some STR selection/deselection based on linearity. You can see they are not that much different.

K years before present

Marko Heinila _ Anatole Klyosov

M343_ 14.0 __ 14.0

V88__ _9.5 __ _6.9
v88__ ____ __ _4.3 (Africa)
V69__ ____ __ _4.3

M73__ _7.2 __ _8.0

M269_ _5.7 __ _7.0
L23__ _5.7 __ _6.2
L51__ _4.9 __ _4.9
L11__ _4.8 __ _4.6
U106_ _4.5 __ _4.2
P312_ _4.2 __ _4.2
U152_ _4.2
L2___ _4.2
L21__ _4.2

The above are all based on germ-line mutation rates, but they seem to fit in with the Karafet 2008 SNP counting method of 18.5 k ybp estimate for R1.

Caveat: These are not precise estimates.

These estimates match almost completely my timeline of R1b history and my proposed migration map, except that I have considerably older ages for M343 (25k ybp) and a slightly older one for V88 (12k ybp).

After that, the age estimates are basically the same. I postulated that R1b-M269 and R1b-M73 moved from Anatolia to the North Caucasus and the Pontic-Caspian Steppe circa 7000 ybp. The first invasion of "Old Europe" would have started with the Usatovo Culture (around Moldavia) circa 5500 ybp, which matches the age of L23. R1b would then have taken approx. 1000 years to spread to Central Europe from the Balkans, under the form of L11. The arrival of the Bronze Age in Western Europe from 4500 to 4000 ybp matches exactly the age Western European lineages : S106 and P312.

 

[nordicwarrior]

Would i guys stop speaking about Vikings,Germanics etc in topic about Bulgarians!

Yaan, that's what we were trying to do. Putting the pieces together sometimes requires working further back in time-- and also the study of neighboring areas.

Mikewww, nice read on the timeline. You have a good eye for genetic developments.

 

[zanipolo]

Yaan, that's what we were trying to do. Putting the pieces together sometimes requires working further back in time-- and also the study of neighboring areas.

Mikewww, nice read on the timeline. You have a good eye for genetic developments.

would these be inaccurate from 2 year sago

http://mtdna.gentis.ru/hg/ages.htm

 

[kokki]

Relationship History-haplogroup is tempting, but still unreliable . However, apparently the modern Bulgarians are more than 50% of the population before 3500 years .There is no other explanation for the presence of E1b1b1a and J2b2 in all Balkan peoples. Apparently Slavs are predominantly I2a1b. Do not forget that haplogroup accompanying at least 20-30 percent of the above. This leaves little to the proto-Bulgarians / Iranian customs, but turkski language /. .In 681 years have been a mixture R1b1a2 / mostly /, R1a1, J2 and J1 certain and rare haplogroup / G, Q, N, C, /.

 

[kokki]

For me it was shocking closeness between Bulgarians and Romanians autosomal DNA / DNA even Y / . Cause disbelief when I mention in front of friends. How misleads language!!!

 

[ElHorsto]

Relationship History-haplogroup is tempting, but still unreliable . However, apparently the modern Bulgarians are more than 50% of the population before 3500 years .There is no other explanation for the presence of E1b1b1a and J2b2 in all Balkan peoples. Apparently Slavs are predominantly I2a1b. Do not forget that haplogroup accompanying at least 20-30 percent of the above. This leaves little to the proto-Bulgarians / Iranian customs, but turkski language /. .In 681 years have been a mixture R1b1a2 / mostly /, R1a1, J2 and J1 certain and rare haplogroup / G, Q, N, C, /.

Can you tell from where you know the ancient turkic haplogroups? Thanks.

Otherwise I agree with you, and might add some comments:
By autosomal analysis bulgarians and romanians are basically identical. They are basically like Tuscans with less Atlantic_med and more North_euro instead. Look at K12b (my favourite) for instance (1st row - Tuscan, 2nd - Bulgarians, 3rd - Romanians):

Gedrosia

Siberian

Northwest_African

Southeast_Asian

Atlantic_Med

North_European

South_Asian

East_African

Southwest_Asian

East_Asian

Caucasus

Sub_Saharan

4.8

0

0

0

37.9

18.7

0.5

0

7.2

0.5

30.5

0

3.3

0.3

0.5

0

23.7

34.8

0.5

0

6.4

0.4

30.1

0

3

0.3

0

0

24.6

36

1.5

0

5.9

0.3

28.4

0

The autosomals (coincidentally?) match well the Y-HG. There is no autosomal component where asian proto-bulgarians could hide.
So either Romanians and Bulgarians both descent from Bulgars, or none of them.
There is one small possibility that proto-Bulgarians where purely west-asian (iranians from the caucasus, Balkharia?). They could "hide" inside the Caucasus component, but then again, why do Romanians and Tuscans have exactly the same percentage?

Second, assuming proto-bulgarians were more like Tatars then we should see a distinct asian signal and more north_european. But there is no asian, only increased North_euro, which makes more sense for slavs rather than bulgars. But again the question, why Romanians and Bulgarians have the same North_euro percentage if Bulgars were north_european and ancestors of Bulgarians only?
So far there is no trace of proto-bulgarians, which surprises me also.

 

[ElHorsto]

For me it was shocking closeness between Bulgarians and Romanians autosomal DNA / DNA even Y / . Cause disbelief when I mention in front of friends. How misleads language!!!

Oh, it seems our posts crossed

 

[Eldritch]

Romanians are heavily Slavic shifted as far as i know.