Major new paper on Bulgarian Y-chromosomal haplogroups.

[Yaan]

Show me one proof genetic or linguistic of ur insulting claim and since u were born after the fall of Yugoslavia do not talk to be about facts.Be proud of what u are offspring of the Muslims Ottomans !

 

[Yaan]

Read the paper!

 

[Templar]

Read the paper!

There is a difference between the group called the Bulgars and moderm-day Bulgarians. Bulgars were a Turkic-Iranic nomadic group. Modern Bulgarians are a mix of Bulgars, Slavs, and the native population.

 

[Templar]

Show me one proof genetic or linguistic of ur insulting claim and since u were born after the fall of Yugoslavia do not talk to be about facts.Be proud of what u are offspring of the Muslims Ottomans !

That is just uncalled for.

Just read this:
http://www.britannica.com/EBchecked/topic/84067/Bulgar

"Bulgar, also called Bulgarian , member of a people known in eastern European history during the Middle Ages. A branch of this people was one of the primary three ethnic ancestors of modern Bulgarians (the other two were Thracians and Slavs).Many scholars posit the origins of the Bulgars as a Turkic tribe of Central Asia (perhaps with Iranian elements) and suggest that they arrived in the European steppe west of the Volga River with the Huns about 370 ce. Retreating with the Huns, they resettled about 460 in an arc of country north and east of the Sea of Azov. Hired by the Byzantines in 480 to fight against the Ostrogoths, the Bulgars subsequently became attracted by the wealth of the Byzantine Empire. In the 6th century the Bulgars continually attacked the Danubian provinces of the Byzantine Empire until, in the 560s, they were themselves threatened by the Avars, who were then advancing from Asia into central Europe. The Avars destroyed one Bulgar tribe, but the rest saved themselves by submitting, for two decades, to another horde of Turkic newcomers, most of whom then retreated back into Asia."

Pwned.

 

[Yaan]

If u have anything to say on the paper,please do so for the rest it is kinda boring and unpleasant what u r doing!

 

[ElHorsto]

That's twisting history. Slavic I1 are also leftovers from Germanic tribes, either those that lived in Poland before the Slavic migrations in the late Antiquity, those who migrated to Eastern Europe during the Roman period (notably the Goths),

I don't understand. First you deny my claim that there was I1 in Slavs, but in the next sentence you even provide one explanation for how slavs earned I1 lineages: from east Germanic tribes. However, my point was not the origin of I1, but only who brought it to the balkans.It is very unlikely that slavs accidentally lost their just aquired I1 lineages after migrating to the balkans.

Viking settlements in Eastern Europe (especially in Russia), or later German colonisation of Central and Eastern Europe (Poland, Bohemia, Hungary, Romania...). Since the Slavs who settled in Bulgaria didn't come from Poland or Bohemia, they shouldn't have had any I1.

Maybe not the bulgarian slavs (first wave), but probably Serbs and Croats (second wave). There are rumours about a moravia or bohemia connection, namely White Serbs (Sorbs?) or white Croats. They have considerably more I1 than Bulgarians.
Also there settled so many german miners in Romania that even today some still speak german there. But Romania has much less I1, similar to Albania. Coincidentally these are non-slavic nations.

To put it short, germanics or germans probably are responsible for some balkanic I1, but probably not entirely. Slavs are alternative candidates.

 

[Yaan]

How can u speak on Albanians,Serbians and Croats they do not have a sample of at least 500 so it is all fairy tale. lets speak on real samples. Bulgarian here on the site were presented in the beginning as almost no G,no it is close to 5, J2 was ranging between 15 and 30,now it is 10, R1b was first about 20,now it is about 10,etc,etc.So things for Serbs,Croats and Albanians would also change after they have a real sample. E-V13,I2a and R1a on the other side were OK.

 

[Maciamo]

I don't understand. First you deny my claim that there was I1 in Slavs, but in the next sentence you even provide one explanation for how slavs earned I1 lineages: from east Germanic tribes. However, my point was not the origin of I1, but only who brought it to the balkans.It is very unlikely that slavs accidentally lost their just aquired I1 lineages after migrating to the balkans.

What you don't understand is the timeline. It is undeniable that all modern Slavs, and indeed almost all modern Europeans (except Sardinians, Cypriots and a few isolated Iberian populations) have some I1 lineages. But the original Slavs, before the 5th century expansion from their homeland in Russia, Belarus and Ukraine, almost certainly didn't have any I1. I was just explaining when Germanic people migrated to areas that are now Slavic.

The only way you could consider that I1 came to Bulgaria with the Slavs, is if "leftover" Goths (those that didn't migrate to the Roman Empire) from the Dniester region were assimilated by the Slavs from Ukraine before they arrived in Bulgaria in the 6th century. But these people were still ultimately ethnic Goths at the time. I also don't see why these Goths would move with the Slavs. They were more likely displaced to Crimea by the Slavs around that time.

Maybe not the bulgarian slavs (first wave), but probably Serbs and Croats (second wave). There are rumours about a moravia or bohemia connection, namely White Serbs (Sorbs?) or white Croats. They have considerably more I1 than Bulgarians.
Also there settled so many german miners in Romania that even today some still speak german there. But Romania has much less I1, similar to Albania. Coincidentally these are non-slavic nations.

I am not aware of any major Serbian, Croatian, Czech or Sorbian migration to Bulgaria. Would you care to provide more information ? When did that happen ?

 

[Maciamo]

How can u speak on Albanians,Serbians and Croats they do not have a sample of at least 500 so it is all fairy tale. lets speak on real samples. Bulgarian here on the site were presented in the beginning as almost no G,no it is close to 5, J2 was ranging between 15 and 30,now it is 10, R1b was first about 20,now it is about 10,etc,etc.So things for Serbs,Croats and Albanians would also change after they have a real sample. E-V13,I2a and R1a on the other side were OK.

Actually my previous calculations based on approximately 150 Bulgarians were pretty close to the new study, as I explained in the OP. Only J2 was off by more than 2.5%. A difference of 1% is nothing. Take 1000 samples from a country and a different set of 1000 samples, and there will surely be variations of 0.5 or 1% for many haplogroups. The frequencies on Eupedia for Albania, Serbia and Croatia are all based on sample sizes ranging from 300 to 500, which is not that different from 800.

 

[Yaan]

Actually my previous calculations based on approximately 150 Bulgarians were pretty close to the new study, as I explained in the OP. Only J2 was off by more than 2.5%. A difference of 1% is nothing. Take 1000 samples from a country and a different set of 1000 samples, and there will surely be variations of 0.5 or 1% for many haplogroups. The frequencies on Eupedia for Albania, Serbia and Croatia are all based on sample sizes ranging from 300 to 500, which is not that different from 800.

Thanks for the info but I have never heard of Albanians and Serbs sampaled more then 150 or something, combined samples I do not think are good, and I think u r doing a pretty good job, it is just that for u R1b is everything and there are no samples on Albanians they have a bunch of 30-120 or samples.

 

[Maciamo]

Read the study, it goes into extensive detail about the original Bulgars, The study says that less than 1.5% of the Bulgarian gene pool can be attributed to central Asian invaders, meaning Haplogroup C and Q. But this is just a segment of what was mentioned , read the study its very interesting.

Except that the "original Bulgars" were probably a predominantly R1a people, like most pre-Mongol Central Asians. In fact, it is just as likely that C and Q came with such people as the Huns and the Mongols as with the Bulgars. The best proof is that C and Q are found all over Eastern Europe, and not just in Bulgaria.

 

[Yaan]

I am not aware of any major Serbian, Croatian, Czech or Sorbian migration to Bulgaria. Would you care to provide more information ? When did that happen ?

There is no Serbian or Croat migration to Bulgaria, in Bulgaria there are more Swedish or American people than Serb and Croat, it is a Yugo dream, please do not pay attention to this mambo jambo

 

[Pillar_of_Fire]

Of course not, and the original Bulgars were not Turkic,now also proved by genetics.read it and cry

Turkic - Тюрки is quite different from Turkish - Турци. The English does not help in this case.

This study is trying to prove that the proto-Bulgarians are having different origin not from Altai, but from Pamir.

 

[Yaan]

It is rather then that making us one of the best represented people in Europe.Nobody cares about Pamir,it is just I am so happy some pathetic people that hate Bulgaria now also have the genetics in their face. I know that Turkic is different then Turks of course.The Turkic people were a lot R1a with some Q,J2,N

 

[Yetos]

Maciamo, there was an E-V13 sample found from the Mesolithic in the Balkans, so it was definately there before neolithic.

the oldest in Europe is in Iberia Mesolithic-Neolithic,
the most close to Hemos peninsula is at Konya, modern Turkey about 2000 BC

among the Iberian and minor asian there are enough 'empty' spaces,
except if an independent 'maritime' neolithic entrance happened to balkans,

Yet the thing I excpect most is a genetical data on Varna Necropolis,
it would solve many questions,
Varna Necropolis for me is oyster that hides the 'pearl'.

 

[ElHorsto]

What you don't understand is the timeline. It is undeniable that all modern Slavs, and indeed almost all modern Europeans (except Sardinians, Cypriots and a few isolated Iberian populations) have some I1 lineages. But the original Slavs, before the 5th century expansion from their homeland in Russia, Belarus and Ukraine, almost certainly didn't have any I1. I was just explaining when Germanic people migrated to areas that are now Slavic.

The only way you could consider that I1 came to Bulgaria with the Slavs, is if "leftover" Goths (those that didn't migrate to the Roman Empire) from the Dniester region were assimilated by the Slavs from Ukraine before they arrived in Bulgaria in the 6th century. But these people were still ultimately ethnic Goths at the time. I also don't see why these Goths would move with the Slavs. They were more likely displaced to Crimea by the Slavs around that time.




I am not aware of any major Serbian, Croatian, Czech or Sorbian migration to Bulgaria. Would you care to provide more information ? When did that happen ?

Serbia and Croatia have more I1 than Bulgaria, hence it a minor problem to explain bulgarian I1: by neighbourhood diffusion. For instance the Serbs were part of the first Bulgarian empire in 900 CE. It would be interesting to know wether I1 is more concentrated in western Bulgaria.

It is more interesting to explain the higher I1 in Croats and Serbs. Here are the mentionend rumours:
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/White_Serbs

I remember this topic was discussed frequently in this forum, but more in connection to I2.

(I wanted to post some maps, but for some reason I can't post anymore even the tinyest pictures due to "quota reasons")

 

[Yaan]

Check the table it is more in Varna and Plovdiv, but both have a lot of Bulgarians from the regions of Macedonia and Thrace, also how do u know what Croats and Serbs have they do not have a sample above 500

 

[Maciamo]

Please stop spreading rumors that the hard core European E-V13 is North African or Middle Eastern.If this is the truth then R1b is Anatolian and R1a is Central Asian. U always say how R1b is European coz the sublclades are European, well E-V13 is hard core European show me prove of E-V13 more then 3% anywhere in the world beside Europe and Druze are kinda suspicious. How can u say E-V13 is North African, if this is the truth ur favorite R1b is from Cameron. For the rest thank u for u work and thank u for finally posting real results for Bulgaria, now one of the few countries in the world with real results because samples bellow 500 are joke and combined samples also. I hope u will stop being so offensive and stop believing R1b is the only European haplogorup. Regards

I have always said that haplogroup R1* was Central Asian. R1a* came from the Eurasian steppe, even if it isn't clear where exactly. R1b* probably arose in Central or South Asia, then moved to the Middle East, where it became R1b1* (P25). R1b-M269 arose either in Anatolia or in the Pontic Steppes. Only subclades downstream of L11 can be considered "native European", but will always keep their Middle Eastern and Central Asian ancestry as part of the R1b family. Apparently you didn't read anything in my R1b history.

E-V13 simply couldn't have originated in the Balkans because it is found all the way from Egypt eastwards to Morocco and westwards to the Arabian peninsula, Anatolia, Azerbaijan, Iran, and perhaps even in Pakistan and India, in addition to Europe. But don't forget that E-V13 is an old haplogroup (like R1b1*) with plenty of subclades, and many of them did arise in the Balkans. But E-V13 didn't. It could not have spread throughout West Asia, South Asia and North Africa if it had originated in the Balkans.

You can check these papers if you doubt my word :

- E-V13 in North Africa and the Middle East : Tracing Past Human Male Movements in Northern/Eastern Africa and Western Eurasia

- E-V13 in Iran : Ancient Migratory Events in the Middle East: New Clues from the Y-Chromosome Variation of Modern Iranians

 

[DejaVu]

Modern Bulgarians are not the original Bulgarians (Bulgars)? Who are you then? A mix of different people? Why do your history connect you with the original bulgars? Your language is not Bulgar but slavic. Fabrication of historical facts and false claims.

 

[Yetos]

for info about Slavic and Bulgarian migrations

Bulgarians or Bal+gur (5 clans)were a Turkic tribe (not Turkish-Ottoman),
they enter from Ucraine to Romania to East parts of modern Bulgaria (Asparuch)
Balgur always travel with Slavic tribes of Severi (seven tribes) which also came same time from Ucraine through ROmania,
they settled west of Veliko Tyrnovo and Ryce (Rouse) around Phillipopolis to Sofia,
the unification among Severi, Balgur and older population created modern Bulgarian Ethnicity.

on the other part,
Serbs are mentioned to enter from North parts of Great Moravia, among Poland Germany and Czechia
Croats are mention to enter from Eastern parts, somewhere around Routhinia-Ucraine-Lithuania