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Thread: Large-scale new study of Croatian Y-DNA

  1. #26
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    Quote Originally Posted by Nobody1 View Post
    at ElHorsto

    According to Beals & Hoijer (1953), the Dinarics are an intermixture of Nordics & Armenoids.
    But Coon is more precise (better ref.) about Dinarics being an Alpine (Brachycephalic) and Mediterranid (Dark Complexion: Hair, Eyes; Narrow Nose; Narrow Face; Pontid type); with Noric (noricum) simply being the more Nordic (light complexioned) Dinaric sub-type.

    Stefan Vatev: "ANTHROPOLOGICAL STUDY OF LOVECH REGION, NORTH BULGARIA"
    "The Noric race (German: Norische Rasse) was a racial category proposed by the anthropologist Victor Lebzelter. The Noric race was supposed to be a lighter sub-type of the Dinaric race."
    "Norics were characterized by tall stature, brachycephaly, nasal convexity, long face and broad forehead. Their complexion was said to be light, and blondness combined with light eyes to be their anthropologic characteristic. Norics were supposed to populate parts of Austria, Slovenia, Hungary, Northern Croatia, Northern Serbia and South-Eastern Germany."

    [Note: all races mentioned in this post are sub-races of the Caucasoid race]
    Noric is the term used for the eastern alps , originally an ancient illyrian tribe called Nori it became rename, to norici when the celts merged with illyrian in eastern Austria. Thats how the name came about.
    Father's Mtdna H95a1
    Grandfather Mtdna T2b24
    Great Grandfather Mtdna T1a1e
    GMother paternal side YDna R1b-S8172
    Mother's YDna R1a-Z282

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    Quote Originally Posted by kamani View Post
    Fig.2 was a bit of a surprise for me. It shows south-italians being closer to jugoslavs and albanians than to north-italians. I have heard before of albanians being close to south-italians, but I have not heard of jugoslavs being as well almost the same distance from south-italians. I wonder how did that happen?
    Slovenians also seem to be far from the rest of the jugoslavs, clustering with slovakians and czechs.

    why you are surprised?

    never heard of an imaginary line (Cizarec) that is mentioned in this forum many times?
    ΟΘΕΝ ΑΙΔΩΣ OY EINAI
    ΑΤΗ ΛΑΜΒΑΝΕΙΝ ΑΥΤΟΙΣ
    ΥΒΡΙΣ ΓΕΝΝΑΤΑΙ
    ΝΕΜΕΣΙΣ ΚΑΙ ΤΙΣΗ ΑΚΟΛΟΥΘΟΥΣΙ ΔΕ

    When there is no shame
    Divine blindness conquers them
    Hybris (abuse, opprombium) is born
    Nemesis and punishment follows.

    Εχε υπομονη Ηρωα
    Η τιμωρια δεν αργει.

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    Quote Originally Posted by ElHorsto View Post
    Let's keep in mind there was a people called Antes who were considered very early east-slavs, but recently this has become more controversial. Prokopius and Jordanes describe them as very similar to slavic. They came from Ukraine and were possibly influenced by an iranian elite. It is very interesting that the Antes fought the actual slavs and later became allies of Byzantinum. It could be that I2 came originally from Antes. The mythical iranian elite hypothesis of Serb and Croat origin in White-lands could be possibly related to Antes?!
    In this scenario the Dinarics could have come first from east by antes to Moravia or even south-east germany, and later continued (together with some I1) to the Balkans, such that Coon still could be right? Just some musing.
    according Byzantine chronicles, yes you are right,
    Serbs from moravia, Croars from around Ruthinia, Severi from Ucraine.

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    Quote Originally Posted by zanipolo View Post
    If they are ancient, then they are epirote as Pyrrhus the Great , king of Epirus was asked by epirotes in southern Italy to help them defeat the Romans.

    If the markers are more modern, then its another story
    sounds like jugoslav I2a is very watered down from its original environment, because south-italians have almost none of it, but still the populations are close.

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    Quote Originally Posted by nordicfoyer View Post
    I have to explain my thinking on autosomal as it relates to y-DNA and this Croatian thread is a good fit because of the confusing y-DNA makeup in this region.

    1. As we build a more complete model of Croatian autosomal results, we will be able to paint the full mosiac of genetic flow into and out of the region-- not limited to just y-haplogroup data. Over time, as this model becomes more and more clear-- we can then overlay the y-DNA (and mtDNA) maps for a even fuller picture. That's the simple way of how autosomal will help tell us of our historical movements through time.

    2. Now here's where it gets weird-- right now we view y-DNA completely seperate from autosomal. However, nature doesn't work like that. In nature everything is interconnected, nothing occurs in a vacuum. What if over time (as all of our models and maps become more and more defined) we are able to draw correlations between y-DNA and autosomal results? In other words, autosomal will dictate skin and eye color, but what if y-DNA impacts skin thickness or say distance between eyes?

    In order to pick up these correlations, we would need some extra powerful computing and a dozen or so experts in statistics. But with a strong mainframe from M.I.T., a dedicated team of qualified scientists, and a few cases of intense Asperger's syndrome-- somebody is going to crack the code and discover how y and mtdna haplogroup impact autosomal characteristics. This will have incredible applications not only in the field of history, but also biology and just about an other ology you can think come up with.

    I apologize in advance to Moesan, I know how much he enjoys my digressions...
    That would be great. Need more precision in the age of the mutations, and many ancient DNA research. Will be born and the new sciences. . I can think of 1. SPEKULATSIOLOGIA.

  6. #31
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    Quote Originally Posted by kokki View Post
    That would be great. Need more precision in the age of the mutations, and many ancient DNA research. Will be born and the new sciences. . I can think of 1. SPEKULATSIOLOGIA.
    That actually made me laugh out loud, no joke!

    Please do try to remember my oddball theory though. In five years or so, the focus of DNA will shift to it's interrelatedness. There is no such thing as "junk DNA"-- it all has a function and purpose.

    Plus when you consider the fact that mtdna effects the main power plant in every cell in the body... of course a mutation in this area will have far reaching impact throughout the entire organism.

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    Back to the thread though, Yetos tell us more about these Severi from Ucraine. Byzantine sources would have validity because of their age... much closer in time to the actual population shifts.

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    Quote Originally Posted by zanipolo View Post
    Dalmatians where the last of the people in croatia to become slavic, they did not migrate from anywhere but where one of the original illyrian confederation of tribes, even their language only expired in the 18th century.

    Dalmatian was influenced particulary Venetian and Croatian despite the latter, the Latin roots of Dalmatian remained prominent).

    So, I do not know why you think I2a was entirely slavic
    I never said that I2a was slavic. I said that there was significant gene flow of I2a from South Croatia (Dalmatia/Hercegovina) and Bosnia to North/East/West Croatia. Without this gene flow we would be looking at much lower I2a frequencies in the north. Of course I believe I2a is old in the Balkans, preceding Illyrians.

    1) I2a was found in a high percent of pre-roman venetians.
    2) I don't believe any variance models based on frequency topography because they exclude geographic barriers to gene flow making the whole premise erroneous.
    3) The parts of Croatia with the highest I2a are geographically isolated from gene flow making the slavic invasion hypothesis extremely unlikely.
    4) Ken N's claim of Y dating based on a model, and all models are prone to errors of input and of the model itself.

  9. #34
    Regular Member zanipolo's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by james stock View Post
    I never said that I2a was slavic. I said that there was significant gene flow of I2a from South Croatia (Dalmatia/Hercegovina) and Bosnia to North/East/West Croatia. Without this gene flow we would be looking at much lower I2a frequencies in the north. Of course I believe I2a is old in the Balkans, preceding Illyrians.

    1) I2a was found in a high percent of pre-roman venetians.
    2) I don't believe any variance models based on frequency topography because they exclude geographic barriers to gene flow making the whole premise erroneous.
    3) The parts of Croatia with the highest I2a are geographically isolated from gene flow making the slavic invasion hypothesis extremely unlikely.
    4) Ken N's claim of Y dating based on a model, and all models are prone to errors of input and of the model itself.
    there is another who rivals Ken N , Terry Robb. His data is below, from full migrational routes , including barbarian invasions, to I1 and I2 as well as all the geno 2.0 results

    http://www.goggo.com/terry/Haplogrou...Migrations.pdf

    http://www.goggo.com/terry/Haplogrou...R_Branches.pdf

    http://www.goggo.com/terry/HaplogroupI1/

    there is even a spot where you can enter your ftdna kit number ( only if your are from the I family ) to reveal new data

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    Dinarics are an Alpino-Med blend according to Coon.
    No, Dinarics are a mix of Paleolithic Europeans (Cro-Magnons) and Near-Eastern migrants (probably Armenoids). Indo-Europeans had Alpine-like characteristics such as having a wide but short face.

    There are still many un-mixed relatively "pure" Cro-Magnons in Herzegovina. My father's side of the family are all over 6'2 for males and over 5'7 for women. And they aren't frail like the stereotypical Dinaric, they have extremely wide/thick bones (especially the legs) and pack on muscle as if they are on steroids.

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    Quote Originally Posted by Templar View Post
    No, Dinarics are a mix of Paleolithic Europeans (Cro-Magnons) and Near-Eastern migrants (probably Armenoids). Indo-Europeans had Alpine-like characteristics such as having a wide but short face.

    There are still many un-mixed relatively "pure" Cro-Magnons in Herzegovina. My father's side of the family are all over 6'2 for males and over 5'7 for women. And they aren't frail like the stereotypical Dinaric, they have extremely wide/thick bones (especially the legs) and pack on muscle as if they are on steroids.
    Do you have a source to back up your claims?

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    Quote Originally Posted by Eldritch View Post
    Do you have a source to back up your claims?
    Several anthropologists have suggested it. Plus there is a lot of evidence for it. Western Balkans have the highest rates of haplogroup I (the Cro-Magnon Y haplogroup), the people are the tallest in Europe, have features which fit with how paleolithic Europeans are thought to have looked, etc. There are many similarities between "Nordics" and Dinarics. And most agree that "Nordics" have a considerable amount of Paleolithic ancestry. The only big difference between them is coloring, but that can be attributed to Indo-European admixture in the case of Nordics and near-eastern admixture in the case of Dinarics.

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    Quote Originally Posted by Templar View Post
    Several anthropologists have suggested it. Plus there is a lot of evidence for it. Western Balkans have the highest rates of haplogroup I (the Cro-Magnon Y haplogroup), the people are the tallest in Europe, have features which fit with how paleolithic Europeans are thought to have looked, etc. There are many similarities between "Nordics" and Dinarics. And most agree that "Nordics" have a considerable amount of Paleolithic ancestry. The only big difference between them is coloring, but that can be attributed to Indo-European admixture in the case of Nordics and near-eastern admixture in the case of Dinarics.
    Link me those Anthropologists and your theories don't count.

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    Quote Originally Posted by Eldritch View Post
    Link me those Anthropologists and your theories don't count.
    RALPH L. BEALS and HARRY HOIJER

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    Quote Originally Posted by Templar View Post
    Several anthropologists have suggested it. Plus there is a lot of evidence for it. Western Balkans have the highest rates of haplogroup I (the Cro-Magnon Y haplogroup), the people are the tallest in Europe, have features which fit with how paleolithic Europeans are thought to have looked, etc. There are many similarities between "Nordics" and Dinarics. And most agree that "Nordics" have a considerable amount of Paleolithic ancestry. The only big difference between them is coloring, but that can be attributed to Indo-European admixture in the case of Nordics and near-eastern admixture in the case of Dinarics.
    On previous threads you have claimed jugoslav I2a to be illyrian; following your logic with what you're saying now, illyrians are paleolithic in the balkans.

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    Quote Originally Posted by kamani View Post
    On previous threads you have claimed jugoslav I2a to be illyrian; following your logic with what you're saying now, illyrians are paleolithic in the balkans.
    There is no single evidence that I2a is Paleolithic or Mesolithic in origin. We have to wait for aDNA to conclude that. Everything else said is just bollocks. Besides that, how many times we have discussed that I2a among Yugoslavians is exclusively I2a1b1 which is only 2500-2000 years old. It has absolutely nothing to do with Illyrians.

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    On previous threads you have claimed jugoslav I2a to be illyrian; following your logic with what you're saying now, illyrians are paleolithic in the balkans.
    Not really, I claimed that I2a was a major element of the Illyrian population (the others being E, J1, J2, and other haplogroups that came during the neolithic, and small amounts of r1b and r1a).

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    Quote Originally Posted by Malsori View Post
    There is no single evidence that I2a is Paleolithic or Mesolithic in origin. We have to wait for aDNA to conclude that. Everything else said is just bollocks. Besides that, how many times we have discussed that I2a among Yugoslavians is exclusively I2a1b1 which is only 2500-2000 years old. It has absolutely nothing to do with Illyrians.
    The 2500-2000 date is derived from Ken's data and estimation, now many people think that his way of calculating haplogroup age is very flawed, plus as someone already mention, pre-Roman Venetians might have had I2a.

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    1 members found this post helpful.
    Quote Originally Posted by Templar View Post
    The 2500-2000 date is derived from Ken's data and estimation, now many people think that his way of calculating haplogroup age is very flawed, plus as someone already mention, pre-Roman Venetians might have had I2a.


    Do not even argue with Albanians. They will hijack any thread to talk about their made up Illyrian history. This pathetic behavior seems more commom in Albanian youth, as i've met some very nice Albanian elderly who do not exhibit the stupidity that their youth do.

    The Albanians use 2500yo haplogroup dating based on Ken N's model.

    Ken N's model was also used to date E-V13 in the Balkans. Albanians tested as the most recent migrants at 250AD-500AD. Thus if the Albanians here want to claim that Balkan I2a is recent using Ken N's model, they must also be ready to accept that their own population dates to 500AD using the same exact model.

    dienekes.blogspot.com/2008/07/expansion-of-e-v13-explained.html

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    Quote Originally Posted by james stock View Post
    Ken N's model was also used to date E-V13 in the Balkans. Albanians tested as the most recent migrants at 250AD-500AD. Thus if the Albanians here want to claim that Balkan I2a is recent using Ken N's model, they must also be ready to accept that their own population dates to 500AD using the same exact model.

    dienekes.blogspot.com/2008/07/expansion-of-e-v13-explained.html
    That's not Ken N's model being used, that's dienekes, the greek owner of the blog giving his amateur 2 cents on the matter (and pretty bias 2 cents). The slav migration in the balkans that formed the jugoslav genesis, happened in the middle ages and has been documented, any serious historian outside of ex-jugoslavia is not going to dispute that.
    Not even the greeks support you guys on jugoslav I2a being that old, because that would mean the Macedonian slavs were the first inhabitants of greece (they don't even want Macedonia to even be called Macedonia anymore, because it's inhabited by slavs).

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    Quote Originally Posted by kamani View Post
    That's not Ken N's model being used, that's dienekes, the greek owner of the blog giving his amateur 2 cents on the matter (and pretty bias 2 cents). The slav migration in the balkans that formed the jugoslav genesis, happened in the middle ages and has been documented, any serious historian outside of ex-jugoslavia is not going to dispute that.
    Not even the greeks support you guys on jugoslav I2a being that old, because that would mean the Macedonian slavs were the first inhabitants of greece (they don't even want Macedonia to even be called Macedonia anymore, because it's inhabited by slavs).
    Sorry kamani,but there is no jugoslav people and jugoslav genesis.

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    Nordvedt is probably the best person on earth to have studied Y-DNA I branches so it would make him pretty reliable.

    E-V13 has never been studied by Nordvedt, according to last Bulgarian paper E-V13 could even be Mesolithic into Balkans so i don't know where are all your theories coming.

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    Quote Originally Posted by kamani View Post
    That's not Ken N's model being used, that's dienekes, the greek owner of the blog giving his amateur 2 cents on the matter (and pretty bias 2 cents). The slav migration in the balkans that formed the jugoslav genesis, happened in the middle ages and has been documented, any serious historian outside of ex-jugoslavia is not going to dispute that.
    Not even the greeks support you guys on jugoslav I2a being that old, because that would mean the Macedonian slavs were the first inhabitants of greece (they don't even want Macedonia to even be called Macedonia anymore, because it's inhabited by slavs).
    Yes, it is Ken N's model being used. Do you even know what a model is? You input data, and it gives you an output of information based on premises. It's not Ken N's data, it is Ken N's model. Are you arguing that the data used by Dienekes is an inaccurate representation of Balkan E-V13? If so, please provide evidence to support your assertions.

    I see that the Albanians will use Ken N's model to support their hypothesis, but reject Ken N's model when it says that Albanian E-V13 originated from 500AD. I have no doubt that E-V13 Albanians, and especially E-V13 Albanians in Kosovo are a product of a founder effect that is rather recent and the date of 500AD seems very likely for the founder. Anyone with any knowledge of evolutionary genetics would infer from the E-V13 frequency contours of Kosovo and surrounding areas that that population is a product of a recent founder effect.

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    Quote Originally Posted by kamani View Post
    That's not Ken N's model being used, that's dienekes, the greek owner of the blog giving his amateur 2 cents on the matter (and pretty bias 2 cents). The slav migration in the balkans that formed the jugoslav genesis, happened in the middle ages and has been documented, any serious historian outside of ex-jugoslavia is not going to dispute that.
    Not even the greeks support you guys on jugoslav I2a being that old, because that would mean the Macedonian slavs were the first inhabitants of greece (they don't even want Macedonia to even be called Macedonia anymore, because it's inhabited by slavs).
    @Kamani

    Leave Greeks alone,
    don't mix them with your 'theories' which are just propaganda pappers.
    and especially Dienekes who is searching autosomal admixtures,
    Dienekes is searching, you are just want to make propaganda.
    I am proud of Dienekes being Greek, cause his blog has a good scientific lvl, which you do not have, and true or false he is using scientific methods,

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    Quote Originally Posted by james stock View Post
    Yes, it is Ken N's model being used. Do you even know what a model is? You input data, and it gives you an output of information based on premises. It's not Ken N's data, it is Ken N's model. Are you arguing that the data used by Dienekes is an inaccurate representation of Balkan E-V13? If so, please provide evidence to support your assertions.
    Look up threads in this forum about E-v13, they're full of links that put in the Neolithic. So it is neolithic everywhere in the balkans, excepts in tiny kosovo, where it is supposed to be 250 AD, nevermind that the highest density is in kosovo and the distribution maps show its epicenter over there! That dienekes link is just some anonimous dude in 2008, in his spare time playing with the Ken Nordtvedt's Generations2 program, choosing his own input. That's not a serious published study.
    Last edited by kamani; 17-03-13 at 21:24.

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