Large-scale new study of Croatian Y-DNA

[nordicwarrior]

I have to explain my thinking on autosomal as it relates to y-DNA and this Croatian thread is a good fit because of the confusing y-DNA makeup in this region.

1. As we build a more complete model of Croatian autosomal results, we will be able to paint the full mosiac of genetic flow into and out of the region-- not limited to just y-haplogroup data. Over time, as this model becomes more and more clear-- we can then overlay the y-DNA (and mtDNA) maps for a even fuller picture. That's the simple way of how autosomal will help tell us of our historical movements through time.

2. Now here's where it gets weird-- right now we view y-DNA completely seperate from autosomal. However, nature doesn't work like that. In nature everything is interconnected, nothing occurs in a vacuum. What if over time (as all of our models and maps become more and more defined) we are able to draw correlations between y-DNA and autosomal results? In other words, autosomal will dictate skin and eye color, but what if y-DNA impacts skin thickness or say distance between eyes?

In order to pick up these correlations, we would need some extra powerful computing and a dozen or so experts in statistics. But with a strong mainframe from M.I.T., a dedicated team of qualified scientists, and a few cases of intense Asperger's syndrome-- somebody is going to crack the code and discover how y and mtdna haplogroup impact autosomal characteristics. This will have incredible applications not only in the field of history, but also biology and just about an other ology you can think come up with.

I apologize in advance to Moesan, I know how much he enjoys my digressions...

 

[Eldritch]

Correct, but imo Coon was was wrong in this case.

Care to explain!

 

[Nobody1]

at ElHorsto

According to Beals & Hoijer (1953), the Dinarics are an intermixture of Nordics & Armenoids.
But Coon is more precise (better ref.) about Dinarics being an Alpine (Brachycephalic) and Mediterranid (Dark Complexion: Hair, Eyes; Narrow Nose; Narrow Face; Pontid type); with Noric (noricum) simply being the more Nordic (light complexioned) Dinaric sub-type.

Stefan Vatev: "ANTHROPOLOGICAL STUDY OF LOVECH REGION, NORTH BULGARIA"
"The Noric race (German: Norische Rasse) was a racial category proposed by the anthropologist Victor Lebzelter. The Noric race was supposed to be a lighter sub-type of the Dinaric race."
"Norics were characterized by tall stature, brachycephaly, nasal convexity, long face and broad forehead. Their complexion was said to be light, and blondness combined with light eyes to be their anthropologic characteristic. Norics were supposed to populate parts of Austria, Slovenia, Hungary, Northern Croatia, Northern Serbia and South-Eastern Germany."

[Note: all races mentioned in this post are sub-races of the Caucasoid race]

 

[zanipolo]

Fig.2 was a bit of a surprise for me. It shows south-italians being closer to jugoslavs and albanians than to north-italians. I have heard before of albanians being close to south-italians, but I have not heard of jugoslavs being as well almost the same distance from south-italians. I wonder how did that happen?
Slovenians also seem to be far from the rest of the jugoslavs, clustering with slovakians and czechs.

If they are ancient, then they are epirote as Pyrrhus the Great , king of Epirus was asked by epirotes in southern Italy to help them defeat the Romans.

If the markers are more modern, then its another story

 

[zanipolo]

Let's be clear here that this data is not representative of Croatians, but of Croatia. It omits the Croatians with the highest percentage of I2a which are Croatians from Hercegovina and Bosna. So i'm unsure why you changed the data. Is the data weighted reflect Croatians that live in Hercegovina and Bosnia?

Dalmatians: 55% I2a

Dalmatians where the last of the people in croatia to become slavic, they did not migrate from anywhere but where one of the original illyrian confederation of tribes, even their language only expired in the 18th century.
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Dalmatian_language

Dalmatian was influenced particularly heavily by Venetian and Croatian (despite the latter, the Latin roots of Dalmatian remained prominent).

So, I do not know why you think I2a was entirely slavic

 

[zanipolo]

at ElHorsto

According to Beals & Hoijer (1953), the Dinarics are an intermixture of Nordics & Armenoids.
But Coon is more precise (better ref.) about Dinarics being an Alpine (Brachycephalic) and Mediterranid (Dark Complexion: Hair, Eyes; Narrow Nose; Narrow Face; Pontid type); with Noric (noricum) simply being the more Nordic (light complexioned) Dinaric sub-type.

Stefan Vatev: "ANTHROPOLOGICAL STUDY OF LOVECH REGION, NORTH BULGARIA"
"The Noric race (German: Norische Rasse) was a racial category proposed by the anthropologist Victor Lebzelter. The Noric race was supposed to be a lighter sub-type of the Dinaric race."
"Norics were characterized by tall stature, brachycephaly, nasal convexity, long face and broad forehead. Their complexion was said to be light, and blondness combined with light eyes to be their anthropologic characteristic. Norics were supposed to populate parts of Austria, Slovenia, Hungary, Northern Croatia, Northern Serbia and South-Eastern Germany."

[Note: all races mentioned in this post are sub-races of the Caucasoid race]

Noric is the term used for the eastern alps , originally an ancient illyrian tribe called Nori it became rename, to norici when the celts merged with illyrian in eastern Austria. Thats how the name came about.

 

[Yetos]

Fig.2 was a bit of a surprise for me. It shows south-italians being closer to jugoslavs and albanians than to north-italians. I have heard before of albanians being close to south-italians, but I have not heard of jugoslavs being as well almost the same distance from south-italians. I wonder how did that happen?
Slovenians also seem to be far from the rest of the jugoslavs, clustering with slovakians and czechs.

why you are surprised?

never heard of an imaginary line (Cizarec) that is mentioned in this forum many times?

 

[Yetos]

Let's keep in mind there was a people called Antes who were considered very early east-slavs, but recently this has become more controversial. Prokopius and Jordanes describe them as very similar to slavic. They came from Ukraine and were possibly influenced by an iranian elite. It is very interesting that the Antes fought the actual slavs and later became allies of Byzantinum. It could be that I2 came originally from Antes. The mythical iranian elite hypothesis of Serb and Croat origin in White-lands could be possibly related to Antes?!
In this scenario the Dinarics could have come first from east by antes to Moravia or even south-east germany, and later continued (together with some I1) to the Balkans, such that Coon still could be right? Just some musing.

according Byzantine chronicles, yes you are right,
Serbs from moravia, Croars from around Ruthinia, Severi from Ucraine.

 

[kamani]

If they are ancient, then they are epirote as Pyrrhus the Great , king of Epirus was asked by epirotes in southern Italy to help them defeat the Romans.

If the markers are more modern, then its another story

sounds like jugoslav I2a is very watered down from its original environment, because south-italians have almost none of it, but still the populations are close.

 

[kokki]

I have to explain my thinking on autosomal as it relates to y-DNA and this Croatian thread is a good fit because of the confusing y-DNA makeup in this region.

1. As we build a more complete model of Croatian autosomal results, we will be able to paint the full mosiac of genetic flow into and out of the region-- not limited to just y-haplogroup data. Over time, as this model becomes more and more clear-- we can then overlay the y-DNA (and mtDNA) maps for a even fuller picture. That's the simple way of how autosomal will help tell us of our historical movements through time.

2. Now here's where it gets weird-- right now we view y-DNA completely seperate from autosomal. However, nature doesn't work like that. In nature everything is interconnected, nothing occurs in a vacuum. What if over time (as all of our models and maps become more and more defined) we are able to draw correlations between y-DNA and autosomal results? In other words, autosomal will dictate skin and eye color, but what if y-DNA impacts skin thickness or say distance between eyes?

In order to pick up these correlations, we would need some extra powerful computing and a dozen or so experts in statistics. But with a strong mainframe from M.I.T., a dedicated team of qualified scientists, and a few cases of intense Asperger's syndrome-- somebody is going to crack the code and discover how y and mtdna haplogroup impact autosomal characteristics. This will have incredible applications not only in the field of history, but also biology and just about an other ology you can think come up with.

I apologize in advance to Moesan, I know how much he enjoys my digressions...

That would be great. Need more precision in the age of the mutations, and many ancient DNA research. Will be born and the new sciences. . I can think of 1. SPEKULATSIOLOGIA.

 

[nordicwarrior]

That would be great. Need more precision in the age of the mutations, and many ancient DNA research. Will be born and the new sciences. . I can think of 1. SPEKULATSIOLOGIA.

That actually made me laugh out loud, no joke!

Please do try to remember my oddball theory though. In five years or so, the focus of DNA will shift to it's interrelatedness. There is no such thing as "junk DNA"-- it all has a function and purpose.

Plus when you consider the fact that mtdna effects the main power plant in every cell in the body... of course a mutation in this area will have far reaching impact throughout the entire organism.

 

[nordicwarrior]

Back to the thread though, Yetos tell us more about these Severi from Ucraine. Byzantine sources would have validity because of their age... much closer in time to the actual population shifts.

 

[james stock]

Dalmatians where the last of the people in croatia to become slavic, they did not migrate from anywhere but where one of the original illyrian confederation of tribes, even their language only expired in the 18th century.

Dalmatian was influenced particulary Venetian and Croatian despite the latter, the Latin roots of Dalmatian remained prominent).

So, I do not know why you think I2a was entirely slavic

I never said that I2a was slavic. I said that there was significant gene flow of I2a from South Croatia (Dalmatia/Hercegovina) and Bosnia to North/East/West Croatia. Without this gene flow we would be looking at much lower I2a frequencies in the north. Of course I believe I2a is old in the Balkans, preceding Illyrians.

1) I2a was found in a high percent of pre-roman venetians.
2) I don't believe any variance models based on frequency topography because they exclude geographic barriers to gene flow making the whole premise erroneous.
3) The parts of Croatia with the highest I2a are geographically isolated from gene flow making the slavic invasion hypothesis extremely unlikely.
4) Ken N's claim of Y dating based on a model, and all models are prone to errors of input and of the model itself.

 

[zanipolo]

I never said that I2a was slavic. I said that there was significant gene flow of I2a from South Croatia (Dalmatia/Hercegovina) and Bosnia to North/East/West Croatia. Without this gene flow we would be looking at much lower I2a frequencies in the north. Of course I believe I2a is old in the Balkans, preceding Illyrians.

1) I2a was found in a high percent of pre-roman venetians.
2) I don't believe any variance models based on frequency topography because they exclude geographic barriers to gene flow making the whole premise erroneous.
3) The parts of Croatia with the highest I2a are geographically isolated from gene flow making the slavic invasion hypothesis extremely unlikely.
4) Ken N's claim of Y dating based on a model, and all models are prone to errors of input and of the model itself.

there is another who rivals Ken N , Terry Robb. His data is below, from full migrational routes , including barbarian invasions, to I1 and I2 as well as all the geno 2.0 results

http://www.goggo.com/terry/HaplogroupI1/y-Haplogroup_I1_and_Ancient_European_Migrations.pdf

http://www.goggo.com/terry/HaplogroupI1/y-Haplogroups_I1_and_I2_STR_Branches.pdf

http://www.goggo.com/terry/HaplogroupI1/

there is even a spot where you can enter your ftdna kit number ( only if your are from the I family ) to reveal new data

 

[Templar]

Dinarics are an Alpino-Med blend according to Coon.

No, Dinarics are a mix of Paleolithic Europeans (Cro-Magnons) and Near-Eastern migrants (probably Armenoids). Indo-Europeans had Alpine-like characteristics such as having a wide but short face.

There are still many un-mixed relatively "pure" Cro-Magnons in Herzegovina. My father's side of the family are all over 6'2 for males and over 5'7 for women. And they aren't frail like the stereotypical Dinaric, they have extremely wide/thick bones (especially the legs) and pack on muscle as if they are on steroids.

 

[Eldritch]

No, Dinarics are a mix of Paleolithic Europeans (Cro-Magnons) and Near-Eastern migrants (probably Armenoids). Indo-Europeans had Alpine-like characteristics such as having a wide but short face.

There are still many un-mixed relatively "pure" Cro-Magnons in Herzegovina. My father's side of the family are all over 6'2 for males and over 5'7 for women. And they aren't frail like the stereotypical Dinaric, they have extremely wide/thick bones (especially the legs) and pack on muscle as if they are on steroids.

Do you have a source to back up your claims?

 

[Templar]

Do you have a source to back up your claims?

Several anthropologists have suggested it. Plus there is a lot of evidence for it. Western Balkans have the highest rates of haplogroup I (the Cro-Magnon Y haplogroup), the people are the tallest in Europe, have features which fit with how paleolithic Europeans are thought to have looked, etc. There are many similarities between "Nordics" and Dinarics. And most agree that "Nordics" have a considerable amount of Paleolithic ancestry. The only big difference between them is coloring, but that can be attributed to Indo-European admixture in the case of Nordics and near-eastern admixture in the case of Dinarics.

 

[Eldritch]

Several anthropologists have suggested it. Plus there is a lot of evidence for it. Western Balkans have the highest rates of haplogroup I (the Cro-Magnon Y haplogroup), the people are the tallest in Europe, have features which fit with how paleolithic Europeans are thought to have looked, etc. There are many similarities between "Nordics" and Dinarics. And most agree that "Nordics" have a considerable amount of Paleolithic ancestry. The only big difference between them is coloring, but that can be attributed to Indo-European admixture in the case of Nordics and near-eastern admixture in the case of Dinarics.

Link me those Anthropologists and your theories don't count.

 

[Templar]

Link me those Anthropologists and your theories don't count.

RALPH L. BEALS and HARRY HOIJER

 

[kamani]

Several anthropologists have suggested it. Plus there is a lot of evidence for it. Western Balkans have the highest rates of haplogroup I (the Cro-Magnon Y haplogroup), the people are the tallest in Europe, have features which fit with how paleolithic Europeans are thought to have looked, etc. There are many similarities between "Nordics" and Dinarics. And most agree that "Nordics" have a considerable amount of Paleolithic ancestry. The only big difference between them is coloring, but that can be attributed to Indo-European admixture in the case of Nordics and near-eastern admixture in the case of Dinarics.

On previous threads you have claimed jugoslav I2a to be illyrian; following your logic with what you're saying now, illyrians are paleolithic in the balkans.