Large-scale new study of Croatian Y-DNA

Maciamo

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Yaan pointed me to this 2012 paper by Mrsic et al. They tested the Y chromosomes of 1100 Croatian men, 220 for each of the five regions. This allowed me to recalculate the haplogroup frequencies more accurately. So far, the small studies by Pericic et al. (2005) and Battaglia et al. (2008) only totalled a bit over 200 samples. The new frequencies are based on 1325 samples for the three studies combined.

The frequencies did change considerably. They decreased for haplogroups T (-1%), I1 (-2.5%), I2a (-5%) and R1a (-5%), but increased for E1b1b (+4%), J2, (+2.5%), G2a (+1.5%), J1 (+1%), Q (+1%), N (+0.5%) and R1b (+0.5%).
 
Good job Yaan, very large study. Maciamo are you going to post the frequencies up per region like with France.
 
It would be very interesting to see the regional differences and results in Croatia. So far Croatians are one of the most represented and studied groups in Europe.
 
It would be very interesting to see the regional differences and results in Croatia.

See table three of the above mentioned study - it´s there.

Table 3

Haplogroup composition in single Croatian regional dataset
 
The regional study is quite interesting. As previously mentioned in this forum, I2a and E-v13 seem to exclude each-other. I2a has highest concentration in south-croatia; on the other hand E-v13 seems evenly spread all over, except in south-croatia. So far we're consistent with history, I2a representing the slavic expansion over an existing E-v13 population. Things get more complicated when considering R1a which has highest concentration in north-croatia and is not inversely proportional with E-v13. This leads to believe that not all R1a in croatia came with the slavic expansion, and some of it was previously there co-existing with the indigenous E-v13.
It gets more complicated when considering I1, which is evenly spread all over. It has been previously mentioned in this forum that it coresponds with the germanic tribe migrations in the late roman era. However, the slavic expansion came after the germanic expansion, so the even spread does not make any sense (we would expect I2a and I1 to be inversely proportional). One explanation is that the slavs also came with 5-6% I1.
 
The regional study is quite interesting. As previously mentioned in this forum, I2a and E-v13 seem to exclude each-other. I2a has highest concentration in south-croatia; on the other hand E-v13 seems evenly spread all over, except in south-croatia. So far we're consistent with history, I2a representing the slavic expansion over an existing E-v13 population. Things get more complicated when considering R1a which has highest concentration in north-croatia and is not inversely proportional with E-v13. This leads to believe that not all R1a in croatia came with the slavic expansion, and some of it was previously there co-existing with the indigenous E-v13.
It gets more complicated when considering I1, which is evenly spread all over. It has been previously mentioned in this forum that it coresponds with the germanic tribe migrations in the late roman era. However, the slavic expansion came after the germanic expansion, so the even spread does not make any sense (we would expect I2a and I1 to be inversely proportional). One explanation is that the slavs also came with 5-6% I1.

The Goths stayed 200 years in Italy and Croatia, Slovenia .....what did they bring along with their R1a ?
 
The Goths stayed 200 years in Italy and Croatia, Slovenia .....what did they bring along with their R1a ?
The goths would explain ~6% I1, which was probably there before the slavs. However the slavs probably also came with some 5% I1. That would explain why I1 is evenly spread and I2a isn't. (or the data is just random and inconclusive)
 
We need to start including SNP results at this point. Really an I1 in Croatia could have moved in 5,000 years ago or 500 years ago (or even 5 years ago). Going further down the y-branches and adding autosomal results should clarify things, or at least give us fodder for decades more of debate.
 
I 'm game to bet that Y-I1 as a whole is not that old (as 5000 years) in Croatia - the explanation of Kamani is not stupid at all: few reminds of Goths, maybe scattered all over the land after loosing their elite position (?) leaving 6/7% of Y-I1 and Slavic sending some similar %s (see: Poland, Baltic lands, N-Slavs) Czechs and Slovenes have even more (but here we can expect some germanic LATE influence?)
 
We need to start including SNP results at this point. Really an I1 in Croatia could have moved in 5,000 years ago or 500 years ago (or even 5 years ago). Going further down the y-branches and adding autosomal results should clarify things, or at least give us fodder for decades more of debate.

I don't see why autosomals could help us concerning Y-I1 for 2 reasons: possible drift for Y-DNA and the melting pot formed by 'NW and NE european'
 
I 'm game to bet that Y-I1 as a whole is not that old (as 5000 years) in Croatia - the explanation of Kamani is not stupid at all: few reminds of Goths, maybe scattered all over the land after loosing their elite position (?) leaving 6/7% of Y-I1 and Slavic sending some similar %s (see: Poland, Baltic lands, N-Slavs) Czechs and Slovenes have even more (but here we can expect some germanic LATE influence?)

I add that the peak of Y-I2a1b in S-Croatia (Dalmatia, I suppose) where 'dinaroid' types are the most frequent, not corresponding to Y-R1a distributions could prove that if Slavs send an appreciable proportion of this haplogroup, they found in S-Croatia (and S-osnia, almost sure) preceding Y-I2a1b bearers, maybe not "autochtonous" but arrived there before (bronze Age?), maybe from central Europe (even if not conclusive, for autosomals and Y-HG are very vaguely tied) COON seemed thinking the 'dinaric' types was descended there from North - the alleged high variance of Y-I2a1b in Yougoslavia seems support this relatively old presence there: so I2a1b + I2a1b !!! history can mock us
 
The Goths stayed 200 years in Italy and Croatia, Slovenia .....what did they bring along with their R1a ?[/QUΟΤΕ]


are you expecting a well based answer?
 
The Goths stayed 200 years in Italy and Croatia, Slovenia .....what did they bring along with their R1a ?[/QUΟΤΕ]


are you expecting a well based answer?

Upon further reading, the goths where only in Croatian lands for about 70 years, the byzantine took over , then the Hungarians.

I believe the I1 was not gothic but came with the goths.

Is the I1 in Croatia a confirmed Scandinavian type?
 
Fig.2 was a bit of a surprise for me. It shows south-italians being closer to jugoslavs and albanians than to north-italians. I have heard before of albanians being close to south-italians, but I have not heard of jugoslavs being as well almost the same distance from south-italians. I wonder how did that happen?
Slovenians also seem to be far from the rest of the jugoslavs, clustering with slovakians and czechs.
 
I add that the peak of Y-I2a1b in S-Croatia (Dalmatia, I suppose) where 'dinaroid' types are the most frequent, not corresponding to Y-R1a distributions could prove that if Slavs send an appreciable proportion of this haplogroup, they found in S-Croatia (and S-osnia, almost sure) preceding Y-I2a1b bearers, maybe not "autochtonous" but arrived there before (bronze Age?), maybe from central Europe (even if not conclusive, for autosomals and Y-HG are very vaguely tied) COON seemed thinking the 'dinaric' types was descended there from North - the alleged high variance of Y-I2a1b in Yougoslavia seems support this relatively old presence there: so I2a1b + I2a1b !!! history can mock us

Let's keep in mind there was a people called Antes who were considered very early east-slavs, but recently this has become more controversial. Prokopius and Jordanes describe them as very similar to slavic. They came from Ukraine and were possibly influenced by an iranian elite. It is very interesting that the Antes fought the actual slavs and later became allies of Byzantinum. It could be that I2 came originally from Antes. The mythical iranian elite hypothesis of Serb and Croat origin in White-lands could be possibly related to Antes?!
In this scenario the Dinarics could have come first from east by antes to Moravia or even south-east germany, and later continued (together with some I1) to the Balkans, such that Coon still could be right? Just some musing.
 
I don't see why autosomals could help us concerning Y-I1 for 2 reasons: possible drift for Y-DNA and the melting pot formed by 'NW and NE european'

I'm sorry-- I should have clarified that I meant including downstream SNP results would help locate all y-groups in space/time, not just I1.

P.S. I'm developing an off the wall theory that both paternal and maternal haplogroup membership somewhat influences autosomal patterns. Will try to explain more as I work it through.
 
Let's be clear here that this data is not representative of Croatians, but of Croatia. It omits the Croatians with the highest percentage of I2a which are Croatians from Hercegovina and Bosna. So i'm unsure why you changed the data. Is the data weighted reflect Croatians that live in Hercegovina and Bosnia?

Dalmatians: 55% I2a
 
It's also well known that a significant portion of north Croatian population came from the diaspora of Dalmatians/Hercegovci. So I would assume that a large majority of the I2a found in what the study describes as North/East/West Croatia came from South Croatia/Hercegovina/Bosna. If anyone knows the history of Croatian people they will know that many went north in search of work and higher paying jobs.

I would expect to find significant gene flow from South/Herceg-Bosna to North croatia.
 
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