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Thread: Large-scale new study of Croatian Y-DNA

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    Satyavrata Maciamo's Avatar
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    Arrow Large-scale new study of Croatian Y-DNA

    Yaan pointed me to this 2012 paper by Mrsic et al. They tested the Y chromosomes of 1100 Croatian men, 220 for each of the five regions. This allowed me to recalculate the haplogroup frequencies more accurately. So far, the small studies by Pericic et al. (2005) and Battaglia et al. (2008) only totalled a bit over 200 samples. The new frequencies are based on 1325 samples for the three studies combined.

    The frequencies did change considerably. They decreased for haplogroups T (-1%), I1 (-2.5%), I2a (-5%) and R1a (-5%), but increased for E1b1b (+4%), J2, (+2.5%), G2a (+1.5%), J1 (+1%), Q (+1%), N (+0.5%) and R1b (+0.5%).
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    Regular Member Anthro-inclined's Avatar
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    Good job Yaan, very large study. Maciamo are you going to post the frequencies up per region like with France.

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    It would be very interesting to see the regional differences and results in Croatia. So far Croatians are one of the most represented and studied groups in Europe.

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    Quote Originally Posted by brendo View Post
    It would be very interesting to see the regional differences and results in Croatia.
    See table three of the above mentioned study - it´s there.

    Table 3

    Haplogroup composition in single Croatian regional dataset

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    The regional study is quite interesting. As previously mentioned in this forum, I2a and E-v13 seem to exclude each-other. I2a has highest concentration in south-croatia; on the other hand E-v13 seems evenly spread all over, except in south-croatia. So far we're consistent with history, I2a representing the slavic expansion over an existing E-v13 population. Things get more complicated when considering R1a which has highest concentration in north-croatia and is not inversely proportional with E-v13. This leads to believe that not all R1a in croatia came with the slavic expansion, and some of it was previously there co-existing with the indigenous E-v13.
    It gets more complicated when considering I1, which is evenly spread all over. It has been previously mentioned in this forum that it coresponds with the germanic tribe migrations in the late roman era. However, the slavic expansion came after the germanic expansion, so the even spread does not make any sense (we would expect I2a and I1 to be inversely proportional). One explanation is that the slavs also came with 5-6% I1.

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    Quote Originally Posted by kamani View Post
    The regional study is quite interesting. As previously mentioned in this forum, I2a and E-v13 seem to exclude each-other. I2a has highest concentration in south-croatia; on the other hand E-v13 seems evenly spread all over, except in south-croatia. So far we're consistent with history, I2a representing the slavic expansion over an existing E-v13 population. Things get more complicated when considering R1a which has highest concentration in north-croatia and is not inversely proportional with E-v13. This leads to believe that not all R1a in croatia came with the slavic expansion, and some of it was previously there co-existing with the indigenous E-v13.
    It gets more complicated when considering I1, which is evenly spread all over. It has been previously mentioned in this forum that it coresponds with the germanic tribe migrations in the late roman era. However, the slavic expansion came after the germanic expansion, so the even spread does not make any sense (we would expect I2a and I1 to be inversely proportional). One explanation is that the slavs also came with 5-6% I1.
    The Goths stayed 200 years in Italy and Croatia, Slovenia .....what did they bring along with their R1a ?
    Father's Mtdna H95a1
    Grandfather Mtdna T2b24
    Great Grandfather Mtdna T1a1e
    GMother paternal side YDna R1b-S8172
    Mother's YDna R1a-Z282

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    Quote Originally Posted by zanipolo View Post
    The Goths stayed 200 years in Italy and Croatia, Slovenia .....what did they bring along with their R1a ?
    The goths would explain ~6% I1, which was probably there before the slavs. However the slavs probably also came with some 5% I1. That would explain why I1 is evenly spread and I2a isn't. (or the data is just random and inconclusive)

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    We need to start including SNP results at this point. Really an I1 in Croatia could have moved in 5,000 years ago or 500 years ago (or even 5 years ago). Going further down the y-branches and adding autosomal results should clarify things, or at least give us fodder for decades more of debate.

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    I 'm game to bet that Y-I1 as a whole is not that old (as 5000 years) in Croatia - the explanation of Kamani is not stupid at all: few reminds of Goths, maybe scattered all over the land after loosing their elite position (?) leaving 6/7% of Y-I1 and Slavic sending some similar %s (see: Poland, Baltic lands, N-Slavs) Czechs and Slovenes have even more (but here we can expect some germanic LATE influence?)

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    Quote Originally Posted by nordicfoyer View Post
    We need to start including SNP results at this point. Really an I1 in Croatia could have moved in 5,000 years ago or 500 years ago (or even 5 years ago). Going further down the y-branches and adding autosomal results should clarify things, or at least give us fodder for decades more of debate.
    I don't see why autosomals could help us concerning Y-I1 for 2 reasons: possible drift for Y-DNA and the melting pot formed by 'NW and NE european'

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    Quote Originally Posted by MOESAN View Post
    I 'm game to bet that Y-I1 as a whole is not that old (as 5000 years) in Croatia - the explanation of Kamani is not stupid at all: few reminds of Goths, maybe scattered all over the land after loosing their elite position (?) leaving 6/7% of Y-I1 and Slavic sending some similar %s (see: Poland, Baltic lands, N-Slavs) Czechs and Slovenes have even more (but here we can expect some germanic LATE influence?)
    I add that the peak of Y-I2a1b in S-Croatia (Dalmatia, I suppose) where 'dinaroid' types are the most frequent, not corresponding to Y-R1a distributions could prove that if Slavs send an appreciable proportion of this haplogroup, they found in S-Croatia (and S-osnia, almost sure) preceding Y-I2a1b bearers, maybe not "autochtonous" but arrived there before (bronze Age?), maybe from central Europe (even if not conclusive, for autosomals and Y-HG are very vaguely tied) COON seemed thinking the 'dinaric' types was descended there from North - the alleged high variance of Y-I2a1b in Yougoslavia seems support this relatively old presence there: so I2a1b + I2a1b !!! history can mock us

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    [QUOTE=zanipolo;405175]The Goths stayed 200 years in Italy and Croatia, Slovenia .....what did they bring along with their R1a ?[/QUΟΤΕ]


    are you expecting a well based answer?
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    [QUOTE=Yetos;405199]
    Quote Originally Posted by zanipolo View Post
    The Goths stayed 200 years in Italy and Croatia, Slovenia .....what did they bring along with their R1a ?[/QUΟΤΕ]


    are you expecting a well based answer?
    Upon further reading, the goths where only in Croatian lands for about 70 years, the byzantine took over , then the Hungarians.

    I believe the I1 was not gothic but came with the goths.

    Is the I1 in Croatia a confirmed Scandinavian type?

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    Fig.2 was a bit of a surprise for me. It shows south-italians being closer to jugoslavs and albanians than to north-italians. I have heard before of albanians being close to south-italians, but I have not heard of jugoslavs being as well almost the same distance from south-italians. I wonder how did that happen?
    Slovenians also seem to be far from the rest of the jugoslavs, clustering with slovakians and czechs.

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    Quote Originally Posted by MOESAN View Post
    I add that the peak of Y-I2a1b in S-Croatia (Dalmatia, I suppose) where 'dinaroid' types are the most frequent, not corresponding to Y-R1a distributions could prove that if Slavs send an appreciable proportion of this haplogroup, they found in S-Croatia (and S-osnia, almost sure) preceding Y-I2a1b bearers, maybe not "autochtonous" but arrived there before (bronze Age?), maybe from central Europe (even if not conclusive, for autosomals and Y-HG are very vaguely tied) COON seemed thinking the 'dinaric' types was descended there from North - the alleged high variance of Y-I2a1b in Yougoslavia seems support this relatively old presence there: so I2a1b + I2a1b !!! history can mock us
    Let's keep in mind there was a people called Antes who were considered very early east-slavs, but recently this has become more controversial. Prokopius and Jordanes describe them as very similar to slavic. They came from Ukraine and were possibly influenced by an iranian elite. It is very interesting that the Antes fought the actual slavs and later became allies of Byzantinum. It could be that I2 came originally from Antes. The mythical iranian elite hypothesis of Serb and Croat origin in White-lands could be possibly related to Antes?!
    In this scenario the Dinarics could have come first from east by antes to Moravia or even south-east germany, and later continued (together with some I1) to the Balkans, such that Coon still could be right? Just some musing.

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    Quote Originally Posted by MOESAN View Post
    I don't see why autosomals could help us concerning Y-I1 for 2 reasons: possible drift for Y-DNA and the melting pot formed by 'NW and NE european'
    I'm sorry-- I should have clarified that I meant including downstream SNP results would help locate all y-groups in space/time, not just I1.

    P.S. I'm developing an off the wall theory that both paternal and maternal haplogroup membership somewhat influences autosomal patterns. Will try to explain more as I work it through.

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    Dinarics are an Alpino-Med blend according to Coon.

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    Let's be clear here that this data is not representative of Croatians, but of Croatia. It omits the Croatians with the highest percentage of I2a which are Croatians from Hercegovina and Bosna. So i'm unsure why you changed the data. Is the data weighted reflect Croatians that live in Hercegovina and Bosnia?

    Dalmatians: 55% I2a

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    It's also well known that a significant portion of north Croatian population came from the diaspora of Dalmatians/Hercegovci. So I would assume that a large majority of the I2a found in what the study describes as North/East/West Croatia came from South Croatia/Hercegovina/Bosna. If anyone knows the history of Croatian people they will know that many went north in search of work and higher paying jobs.

    I would expect to find significant gene flow from South/Herceg-Bosna to North croatia.
    Last edited by james stock; 16-03-13 at 05:13.

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    Quote Originally Posted by Eldritch View Post
    Dinarics are an Alpino-Med blend according to Coon.
    Correct, but imo Coon was was wrong in this case.

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    I have to explain my thinking on autosomal as it relates to y-DNA and this Croatian thread is a good fit because of the confusing y-DNA makeup in this region.

    1. As we build a more complete model of Croatian autosomal results, we will be able to paint the full mosiac of genetic flow into and out of the region-- not limited to just y-haplogroup data. Over time, as this model becomes more and more clear-- we can then overlay the y-DNA (and mtDNA) maps for a even fuller picture. That's the simple way of how autosomal will help tell us of our historical movements through time.

    2. Now here's where it gets weird-- right now we view y-DNA completely seperate from autosomal. However, nature doesn't work like that. In nature everything is interconnected, nothing occurs in a vacuum. What if over time (as all of our models and maps become more and more defined) we are able to draw correlations between y-DNA and autosomal results? In other words, autosomal will dictate skin and eye color, but what if y-DNA impacts skin thickness or say distance between eyes?

    In order to pick up these correlations, we would need some extra powerful computing and a dozen or so experts in statistics. But with a strong mainframe from M.I.T., a dedicated team of qualified scientists, and a few cases of intense Asperger's syndrome-- somebody is going to crack the code and discover how y and mtdna haplogroup impact autosomal characteristics. This will have incredible applications not only in the field of history, but also biology and just about an other ology you can think come up with.

    I apologize in advance to Moesan, I know how much he enjoys my digressions...

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    Quote Originally Posted by ElHorsto View Post
    Correct, but imo Coon was was wrong in this case.
    Care to explain!

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    at ElHorsto

    According to Beals & Hoijer (1953), the Dinarics are an intermixture of Nordics & Armenoids.
    But Coon is more precise (better ref.) about Dinarics being an Alpine (Brachycephalic) and Mediterranid (Dark Complexion: Hair, Eyes; Narrow Nose; Narrow Face; Pontid type); with Noric (noricum) simply being the more Nordic (light complexioned) Dinaric sub-type.

    Stefan Vatev: "ANTHROPOLOGICAL STUDY OF LOVECH REGION, NORTH BULGARIA"
    "The Noric race (German: Norische Rasse) was a racial category proposed by the anthropologist Victor Lebzelter. The Noric race was supposed to be a lighter sub-type of the Dinaric race."
    "Norics were characterized by tall stature, brachycephaly, nasal convexity, long face and broad forehead. Their complexion was said to be light, and blondness combined with light eyes to be their anthropologic characteristic. Norics were supposed to populate parts of Austria, Slovenia, Hungary, Northern Croatia, Northern Serbia and South-Eastern Germany."

    [Note: all races mentioned in this post are sub-races of the Caucasoid race]

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    Quote Originally Posted by kamani View Post
    Fig.2 was a bit of a surprise for me. It shows south-italians being closer to jugoslavs and albanians than to north-italians. I have heard before of albanians being close to south-italians, but I have not heard of jugoslavs being as well almost the same distance from south-italians. I wonder how did that happen?
    Slovenians also seem to be far from the rest of the jugoslavs, clustering with slovakians and czechs.
    If they are ancient, then they are epirote as Pyrrhus the Great , king of Epirus was asked by epirotes in southern Italy to help them defeat the Romans.

    If the markers are more modern, then its another story

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    Quote Originally Posted by james stock View Post
    Let's be clear here that this data is not representative of Croatians, but of Croatia. It omits the Croatians with the highest percentage of I2a which are Croatians from Hercegovina and Bosna. So i'm unsure why you changed the data. Is the data weighted reflect Croatians that live in Hercegovina and Bosnia?

    Dalmatians: 55% I2a
    Dalmatians where the last of the people in croatia to become slavic, they did not migrate from anywhere but where one of the original illyrian confederation of tribes, even their language only expired in the 18th century.
    http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Dalmatian_language

    Dalmatian was influenced particularly heavily by Venetian and Croatian (despite the latter, the Latin roots of Dalmatian remained prominent).

    So, I do not know why you think I2a was entirely slavic

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