Pairing paternal haplogroups of Japan and Europe-- O and D/R and I...

[nordicwarrior]

As we've seen on Eupedia, there has been a natural rivalry between hg. R and I, but for some reason we don't see a similiar conversation involving the Japanese revolving around y-hg. O and D. This is intriguing to me because in Japan blood typing is almost a national obsession.

Has DNA testing not made a splash in Japan? Is it a language issue that prevents their citizens from commenting on Eupedia? Maybe there is a raging debate but it's taking place on another site. Any residents of Japan care to comment? Actually I'm interested in anybody's thoughts on this matter.

 

[sparkey]

Have you read Maciamo's article The Origins of the Japanese people? It's a good summary.

I generally assume D2=Jomon and O=Yayoi, and the best full-genome study (see Dienekes) seemed to confirm that those Y-DNA frequencies matched the full-genome contributions of those groups.

 

[Anthro-inclined]

Another interesting Haplogroup is C-M8 this is different from C-M217 which arrived relatively recently. C-M8 is believed to have developed between 11000-13000 years ago on the Japanese Archipelago. Its found at low frequencies throughout the islands. This time of mutation seems to correspond with the arrival of the Jomon Culture, my thinking is that pre Jomon peoples were primarily D-M55, and that the C-M8 peoples arrived in the islands over 11000 years ago and that this fusion became the Jomon.

 

[nordicwarrior]

I did read that article Sparkey and it's a good one. I've been doing alot of research on the Jomon people lately. But I'm curious as to the seemingly lack of rivalry between hg.'s D and O like we see in Northwestern Europe with hg.'s R and I.

While reviewing a genetic paper recently (I should have written down the quote because I've now forgotten the title and author, which is a bummer because it was a great point) the researcher commented on the tendency for East Asians to think differently about their DNA results. He said that Asians viewed genetic test findings in the context of being just a part of group dynamics-- that the genes actually belonged to their community as a whole. In the West, we are more centered around the individual and therefore view the genes as being the "property" of a single person.

Maybe this is the reason we don't see the y-haplogroup rivalry in Japan that we see in the West. Of course how this meshes with the blood typing obession (type A, type O, type AB, etc.) we see with the Japanese-- I have no idea.

 

[Maciamo]

As we've seen on Eupedia, there has been a natural rivalry between hg. R and I, but for some reason we don't see a similiar conversation involving the Japanese revolving around y-hg. O and D. This is intriguing to me because in Japan blood typing is almost a national obsession.

Has DNA testing not made a splash in Japan? Is it a language issue that prevents their citizens from commenting on Eupedia? Maybe there is a raging debate but it's taking place on another site. Any residents of Japan care to comment? Actually I'm interested in anybody's thoughts on this matter.

Genetic genealogy is not popular at all in Japan. I have a lot of Japanese friends, but when I try to introduce them to the subject they are just not interested. The reason is that the Japanese see themselves as ethnically pure and don't see the point of retracing their ancestry or learning about genetic admixtures.

Many Japanese are not even aware that they are a blend of Palaeolithic Jomon and Bronze-age Yayoi people from Korea/China. The Emperor of Japan only admitted a few years ago that he might have some Korean ancestry, which was in itself a huge revolution in Japan. Until 1945, all the Japanese were taught, and most of them believed, that the imperial family were descended from the gods, and were themselves deities. You can't easily pass from that kind of dark age mentality to the latest scientific world view in just one or two generations. If that were possible, there'd be hope for most of the world's Muslims to become Atheists in one or two generations, which I just cannot see happening.

 

[Finalise]

Genetic genealogy is not popular at all in Japan. I have a lot of Japanese friends, but when I try to introduce them to the subject they are just not interested.

Maybe they're not idiots and know y-chromosomes are bullshit that mean nothing.

Say, Maciamo, you're Belgian no? That high R1b must mean you're from Chad and Nigeria right?

 

[LeBrok]

Maybe they're not idiots and know y-chromosomes are bullshit that mean nothing.

Say, Maciamo, you're Belgian no? That high R1b must mean you're from Chad and Nigeria right?

How can we trust your opinion. You've lied to us already:

My last post on this site.

 

[kamani]

Many Japanese are not even aware that they are a blend of Palaeolithic Jomon and Bronze-age Yayoi people from Korea/China.

Maybe they are vaguely aware, but they don't want to go there. All the japanese and south-koreans I have met are extremely racist against the chinese. The kind of racism that would be very obvious and grotesque by european standards.

 

[Finalise]

The kind of racism that would be very obvious and grotesque by european standards.

Exactly. In Europe where we live that type of racism would be condemned.

So where was I? Oh yeah. I have this theory that Belgians, and other Western Europeans are actually de-pigmentized black people descended from Nigeria and Chad.

R1b itself is 18, 000 years old. So that means the split between the African and European branches is only a few thousands years old, and Neolithic.

R1b crossed over from western africa, into spain and then into belgium. That's why basques have high r1b, and speak a non pie language.

That's why Flemish is actually a mixture between Nigerian and Chadic dialects and PIE. If you study it carefully, there's a lot of words in common.

By studying the skull sizes and phenotypes of Belgians, one can see that theyre closely related. In fact, there is a lot of scientists and historians that connect Belgians to Africans.

R1b is still found in percentages of 0.0001% in Morocco, representing a founder effect, since they went from Chad->Morocco->Spain->Belgium, when Mediterrenean waters were much lower.

The other type of R1b went into the Middle East, but the Western European one is of Neolithic origin considering how recent R1b is, and how Basques have high R1b but dont speak a PIE language.

 

[Finalise]

Maciamo it'd be great if you could compile a list of Flemish words and what they have in common with your recent Chadic ancestors. Im sure you could find a lot of words in common, even though the split is a few thousand years old.

 

[nordicwarrior]

Genetic genealogy is not popular at all in Japan. I have a lot of Japanese friends, but when I try to introduce them to the subject they are just not interested. The reason is that the Japanese see themselves as ethnically pure and don't see the point of retracing their ancestry or learning about genetic admixtures.

Many Japanese are not even aware that they are a blend of Palaeolithic Jomon and Bronze-age Yayoi people from Korea/China. The Emperor of Japan only admitted a few years ago that he might have some Korean ancestry, which was in itself a huge revolution in Japan. Until 1945, all the Japanese were taught, and most of them believed, that the imperial family were descended from the gods, and were themselves deities. You can't easily pass from that kind of dark age mentality to the latest scientific world view in just one or two generations...

Thanks for that answer Maciamo. Makes sense that the Japanese view themselves as an ethnically "pure" people and therefore would avoid haplogroup testing which may point out some differences. (I don't agree with the atheist thing, but that's probably another thread.)

 

[nordicwarrior]

Finalise, I'm glad to see you didn't drop from the site. I actually find you amusing at times. Please stop with the renegade attitude though and come to the table with productive ideas rather than griping about what others have to say. It's far easier to take pot shots than to contribute in an adult manner. So grow a pair and converse with the big boys--enough kid stuff.


And yes, we are all (Western Europeans) a huge percentage "depigmentized black people". What's the big deal?

 

[Mmiikkii]

Another interesting Haplogroup is C-M8 this is different from C-M217 which arrived relatively recently. C-M8 is believed to have developed between 11000-13000 years ago on the Japanese Archipelago. Its found at low frequencies throughout the islands. This time of mutation seems to correspond with the arrival of the Jomon Culture, my thinking is that pre Jomon peoples were primarily D-M55, and that the C-M8 peoples arrived in the islands over 11000 years ago and that this fusion became the Jomon.

I don't think the minority C Haplogroup can be the Jomon culture originators because of 2 things:

One, iother Eurasian places, Hp C is related with deep Paleolithic Lineages that went nearly extincted in the Mesolithic and today seem to be completely gone, such as in Europe. Also the Australian aboriginals are from this group. The Mongols are too, and the Mongols seem more related to the Nomad hunter lifestyle.

And 2. We see with Aryan, the Bantus, the conquest of the Americas, mt Haplogroup H substituting U during the Neolithic...
That if you want to deeply change the civilization of a place, the people there must change a lot. So the most likely explanation is D comes from Jomon people.