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    Understanding indo-european y-dna

    Hi all,
    Just trying to better understand the original Y-dna of Indo-european civilization. I am led to believe that haplogroup R in it's various clades is the primary carrier and founder of Indo-european culture????

    How does haplogroup I fit into this? Were these people adopters of indo-european culture by forced invasion?
    Does anyone have any idea how this actually unfolded? What kind of time-frame are we looking at?
    What was the pre-IE culture of haplogroup I?
    I noticed that this haplogroup, especially I1 is in substantially larger quantities in Scandinavia and North germany, why has it maintained such a strong presence here? Would the engineering reputation of these people have something to do with their levels of creativity from their hunter/gatherer lifestyle combined with the disciplinary elements of indo-european culture?

    Thanks

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    Quote Originally Posted by Barrister View Post
    I noticed that this haplogroup, especially I1 is in substantially larger quantities in Scandinavia and North germany, why has it maintained such a strong presence here? Would the engineering reputation of these people have something to do with their levels of creativity from their hunter/gatherer lifestyle combined with the disciplinary elements of indo-european culture?

    Thanks
    I'm not sure if it has anything to do with creativity of hunter-gatherer. If anything it might have something to do with lesser emotional state of Northern Europeans when compared to Mediterranean folks. It is not only showing how each groups express themselves, like Italian animated talking style verses "cold" Swedish or Finish one, but also how they run politics or their economy. With lesser volume of emotions economy can be run in more orderly/organized way, and people can easier agree and compromise on one direction in politics. It is possible that this is the true heritage of hunter-gatherer ancestors or even Neanderthals.
    Be wary of people who tend to glorify the past, underestimate the present, and demonize the future.

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    Quote Originally Posted by LeBrok View Post
    I'm not sure if it has anything to do with creativity of hunter-gatherer. If anything it might have something to do with lesser emotional state of Northern Europeans when compared to Mediterranean folks. It is not only showing how each groups express themselves, like Italian animated talking style verses "cold" Swedish or Finish one, but also how they run politics or their economy. With lesser volume of emotions economy can be run in more orderly/organized way, and people can easier agree and compromise on one direction in politics. It is possible that this is the true heritage of hunter-gatherer ancestors or even Neanderthals.
    Ah interesting, i've noticed that also. Haplogroup I were hunter-gatherers before IE culture right? Do you feel that haplogroup I has actually been more successful at Indo-european culture than the R people? (through germanic culture)

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    Quote Originally Posted by LeBrok View Post
    I'm not sure if it has anything to do with creativity of hunter-gatherer. If anything it might have something to do with lesser emotional state of Northern Europeans when compared to Mediterranean folks. It is not only showing how each groups express themselves, like Italian animated talking style verses "cold" Swedish or Finish one, but also how they run politics or their economy. With lesser volume of emotions economy can be run in more orderly/organized way, and people can easier agree and compromise on one direction in politics. It is possible that this is the true heritage of hunter-gatherer ancestors or even Neanderthals.
    Two problems with this view:
    1. there were/are lot of non indo-european hunter-gatherers in the North.
    2. There were/are hunter-gatherers all over the South.

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    Great question.

    Here's my opinion (please be aware that bias is rampant in this field and I'm not immune of course-- as I am a member of hg. I you may want to take my viewpoint worth a grain of salt). Haplogroup R brought with it more efficient systems of ruling tribes and later governing societies. Pound for pound haplogroup I members were probably bigger, stronger, and even more intelligent (although less socially inclined). It was a numbers game, and eventually the "invading" R clans swamped the natives genetically speaking.

    The "I" natives were originally more concerned with fertility than warfare (from 45,000 years to about 8,000 years ago), and when the R peoples introduced advanced battle techniques (horses, bronze weaponry, chariots) it wasn't pretty. My thinking is that hg. I hid out in difficult areas to reach and then when they were eventually able to incorporate these new fighting technologies from the Russian Steppes, hg. R offspring undoubtedly regretted sharing their knowledge.

    Every so often, the R systems break down due to corruption, greed, and "softness" and the more robust hg. I methods kick in. This explains the Anglo-Saxon invasions, the Vikings, and the Normans.

    With our looming global depression, we may soon see hg. R (the royal haplogroup) have another erosion in it's efficiency of management systems.

    P.S. For whatever reason, hg I tends to produce very attractive females and this is what had drawn the tribes of R toward Europe and then eventually into Scandinavia. They certainly didn't come for the tropical climate or plentiful farming-- it was for the ladies. Can't say I blame them...

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    at Barrister

    Hg R1b and Hg I were already present in Europe long before the Indo-European migrations. The only mystery of Hg I is Sardinia and its distinct I-M26. an island in the middle of the Mediterranean with ~40% Hg I [Rootsi et al. (2004)] (distinct I-M26 (I2a1). And the only note worthy thing about Sardinia is its distinct Nuragic Civilization.

    at nordicfoyer

    i have read a lot of theories as to why the peoples of the Kurgan culture (Indo-Europeans) migrated/extended into Europe, but your theory, that it was all just because they were horny and wanted to score with Hg I chicks is Revolutionary.

    Hg I vs Hg R1B

    unproductive debate. Regions across Europe who either have a higher frequency of Hg I or a higher frequency of Hg R have pretty much the same share of merits concerning civilization and productivity. And its a debate that would span at least ~5000 years of History (with points in time where one region might have been more sophisticated than the other) and no culture or ethnicity was ever exclusively only part of one and the same Haplogroup to begin with.

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    Quote Originally Posted by Nobody1 View Post
    Hg R1b and Hg I were already present in Europe long before the Indo-European migrations.
    How long do you peg R1b as having been in Europe? I can't say with any certainty whether or not the types of R1b common in Europe came before, during, or after the IE migrations. The subclades aren't all that old in Europe... it's still possible to work with a hypothesis in which European R1b came with IE migrants in the Chalcolithic. It's also interesting that the type of R1b common in Europe continues to have a positive correlation with IE speaking as far away as Iran. There's also a poor correlation between the spread of R1b in Europe and the early Neolithic migrations, so I have trouble fitting it in other than as a migration or expansion during the Chalcolithic and Bronze Age.

    Quote Originally Posted by Nobody1 View Post
    The only mystery of Hg I is Sardinia and its distinct I-M26. an island in the middle of the Mediterranean with ~40% Hg I [Rootsi et al. (2004)] (distinct I-M26 (I2a1). And the only note worthy thing about Sardinia is its distinct Nuragic Civilization.
    What's mysterious about it? I think the main open question about Sardinian I2-M26>L160 is how long after the L160 TMRCA (7000 YBP, IIRC) it got there. I don't think there's much question at this point that L160 is most ancient near the Pyrenees.

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    Quote Originally Posted by sparkey View Post
    What's mysterious about it? I think the main open question about Sardinian I2-M26>L160 is how long after the L160 TMRCA (7000 YBP, IIRC) it got there. I don't think there's much question at this point that L160 is most ancient near the Pyrenees.
    so Sardinian I2-M26>L160 expanded outside of Sardinia and much later migrated in large numbers into Sardinia
    but if they make up 40 % of Sardinians nowadays there should be a trace somewhere in Sardinian history about this immigration?
    (by the way Sardinia was practically uninhabited 8000 years ago when cardium pottery arrived there)

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    Quote Originally Posted by Barrister View Post
    I am led to believe that haplogroup R in it's various clades is the primary carrier and founder of Indo-european culture????
    That's sort of true. There isn't a 1:1 relationship between R and IE, although there is some evidence that the earliest IE populations carried R1a, probably as a majority or plurality, and (certain subclades of) R1b, probably as a minority. There's also evidence linking early IE migrations to certain subclades of J2 and G2.

    Quote Originally Posted by Barrister View Post
    How does haplogroup I fit into this? Were these people adopters of indo-european culture by forced invasion?
    Does anyone have any idea how this actually unfolded? What kind of time-frame are we looking at?
    What was the pre-IE culture of haplogroup I?
    Haplogroup I seems to be the most anciently European haplogroup that is still common. As a result, "When did Haplogroup I become IE?" is similar to answering the question, "When did IE get to Europe, and how long did it take to become dominant in Europe?". It's not an easy question to answer, although I think the most popular answer to "When did IE get to Europe?" is that it came first with Corded Ware culture. As for when it became dominant, it seems to have been a clear majority by the Classical Age, and the Classical Age helped solidify it.

    An interesting twist is that there seems to be some I that may have never been IE... specifically the I2-M26 in Basques. (That doesn't mean, of course, that the pre-IE culture of Haplogroup I folks was Basque. We're not sure what it was.)

    Quote Originally Posted by Barrister View Post
    I noticed that this haplogroup, especially I1 is in substantially larger quantities in Scandinavia and North germany, why has it maintained such a strong presence here?
    It's probably because I1 bottlenecked and spread from North Germany, close to Scandinavia, around the same time that the population of these regions expanded.

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    Quote Originally Posted by sparkey View Post
    That's sort of true. There isn't a 1:1 relationship between R and IE, although there is some evidence that the earliest IE populations carried R1a, probably as a majority or plurality, and (certain subclades of) R1b, probably as a minority. There's also evidence linking early IE migrations to certain subclades of J2 and G2.



    Haplogroup I seems to be the most anciently European haplogroup that is still common. As a result, "When did Haplogroup I become IE?" is similar to answering the question, "When did IE get to Europe, and how long did it take to become dominant in Europe?". It's not an easy question to answer, although I think the most popular answer to "When did IE get to Europe?" is that it came first with Corded Ware culture. As for when it became dominant, it seems to have been a clear majority by the Classical Age, and the Classical Age helped solidify it.

    An interesting twist is that there seems to be some I that may have never been IE... specifically the I2-M26 in Basques. (That doesn't mean, of course, that the pre-IE culture of Haplogroup I folks was Basque. We're not sure what it was.)



    It's probably because I1 bottlenecked and spread from North Germany, close to Scandinavia, around the same time that the population of these regions expanded.
    Quote Originally Posted by nordicfoyer View Post
    Great question.

    Here's my opinion (please be aware that bias is rampant in this field and I'm not immune of course-- as I am a member of hg. I you may want to take my viewpoint worth a grain of salt). Haplogroup R brought with it more efficient systems of ruling tribes and later governing societies. Pound for pound haplogroup I members were probably bigger, stronger, and even more intelligent (although less socially inclined). It was a numbers game, and eventually the "invading" R clans swamped the natives genetically speaking.

    The "I" natives were originally more concerned with fertility than warfare (from 45,000 years to about 8,000 years ago), and when the R peoples introduced advanced battle techniques (horses, bronze weaponry, chariots) it wasn't pretty. My thinking is that hg. I hid out in difficult areas to reach and then when they were eventually able to incorporate these new fighting technologies from the Russian Steppes, hg. R offspring undoubtedly regretted sharing their knowledge.

    Every so often, the R systems break down due to corruption, greed, and "softness" and the more robust hg. I methods kick in. This explains the Anglo-Saxon invasions, the Vikings, and the Normans.

    With our looming global depression, we may soon see hg. R (the royal haplogroup) have another erosion in it's efficiency of management systems.

    P.S. For whatever reason, hg I tends to produce very attractive females and this is what had drawn the tribes of R toward Europe and then eventually into Scandinavia. They certainly didn't come for the tropical climate or plentiful farming-- it was for the ladies. Can't say I blame them...
    Quote Originally Posted by sparkey View Post
    That's sort of true. There isn't a 1:1 relationship between R and IE, although there is some evidence that the earliest IE populations carried R1a, probably as a majority or plurality, and (certain subclades of) R1b, probably as a minority. There's also evidence linking early IE migrations to certain subclades of J2 and G2.



    Haplogroup I seems to be the most anciently European haplogroup that is still common. As a result, "When did Haplogroup I become IE?" is similar to answering the question, "When did IE get to Europe, and how long did it take to become dominant in Europe?". It's not an easy question to answer, although I think the most popular answer to "When did IE get to Europe?" is that it came first with Corded Ware culture. As for when it became dominant, it seems to have been a clear majority by the Classical Age, and the Classical Age helped solidify it.

    An interesting twist is that there seems to be some I that may have never been IE... specifically the I2-M26 in Basques. (That doesn't mean, of course, that the pre-IE culture of Haplogroup I folks was Basque. We're not sure what it was.)



    It's probably because I1 bottlenecked and spread from North Germany, close to Scandinavia, around the same time that the population of these regions expanded.
    Quote Originally Posted by nordicfoyer View Post
    I'd like to recommend a book called Pitcairns' Island (by Charles Nordhoff and James Norman Hall) which is based on the real life events following the famous Mutiny on the Bounty. This novel gives great insight to how men (and women) operate when they've left modern society and are forced to rebuild a working system of community.

    It may be possible to draw parallels between these more modern folks in the Pacific, and the ancient hg I and hg R peoples encountering one another for the first time in Europe-- a new society was forged by the uniting of two existing cultures. And it also very much illustrates my point that beautiful young women are a tremendous motivating force.

    I also get a kick out this book because it gives an almost comically accurate portrait of different y-haplogroups in action. From the secretive hooch hoarding Scotsman, to the Noble Polynesian tribal leader, to the probable haplogroup I crewman that loses his thread of reality-- but retains his bone crushing strength-- toward the novel's conclusion (don't want to spoil the ending for anyone who wants to read it). Also touched upon in this tale is the power of both stone and ancestor worship, which we also see in the primitive European cultures.

    **EDIT**
    Sparkey's more scholarly take is spot on by the way. R1a and to a lesser extent R1b were proto I-E drivers. Maybe some J2 further South.

    **EDIT II**
    And while it's nice to imagine that R and I live together in happy harmony-- you may find it of note that R1b occupies EVERY single royal family line in Northern and Western Europe as well as almost every U.S. Presidential seat I can find. (Except for Calvin Coolidge and of course Obama). Someone is paying close attention to this genetic stuff-- and they have been for a loooonng time.
    Thank you for both of your posts, respectively, i learned alot.
    I knew this about the royal leanings of R1b all over europe including the Akhenaten/Tutankhamun line. But, what struck me was that i wondered how this was the case, when seemingly all of the smartest and most physically imposing people i know personally are all I, including myself (not to toot my own horn).
    Also like you mentioned the Anglo-Saxon and Norman invasions of the England/ the Isles, and this whole western meat-eating culture. Do you feel this would be a trait of hg I? Coming from a hunter-gatherer culture more recently, and i also read that hg I are more commonly affected by gluten and lactose intolerances?
    My cousin is I1a, i'm i2b1 (he is 6'5 and i'm 6'2) Is hg I correlated with tallness?
    What really got me thinking was this Germanic reputation for engineering, creativity and thinking "outside the box", so to speak. Not just limited to germany, but the entire germanosphere.

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    Quote Originally Posted by sparkey View Post

    Haplogroup I seems to be the most anciently European haplogroup that is still common. As a result, "When did Haplogroup I become IE?" is similar to answering the question, "When did IE get to Europe, and how long did it take to become dominant in Europe?". It's not an easy question to answer, although I think the most popular answer to "When did IE get to Europe?" is that it came first with Corded Ware culture. As for when it became dominant, it seems to have been a clear majority by the Classical Age, and the Classical Age helped solidify it.

    An interesting twist is that there seems to be some I that may have never been IE... specifically the I2-M26 in Basques. (That doesn't mean, of course, that the pre-IE culture of Haplogroup I folks was Basque. We're not sure what it was.)



    It's probably because I1 bottlenecked and spread from North Germany, close to Scandinavia, around the same time that the population of these regions expanded.
    Mesolithic I seems to have been become more marginal after arrival of neolithic G2a, J, F, E1b1b and T.
    With arrival of IE , some I-tribes seem to florish again, while neolthical tribes become marginal.
    Why would I have been the natural allies of IE?

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    Quote Originally Posted by Nobody1 View Post

    at nordicfoyer

    i have read a lot of theories as to why the peoples of the Kurgan culture (Indo-Europeans) migrated/extended into Europe, but your theory, that it was all just because they were horny and wanted to score with Hg I chicks is Revolutionary.
    Revolutionary-- I can live with that.

    I like to think back to my younger school days, when teachers taught that hundreds of years ago brave men risked travelling by wooden boats over unknown seas facing possibly hostile peoples for the supposed goal of finding spice. Spice?

    Even when I was a kid I knew that explanation was bogus. Think about it... are you going to risk it all for some curry powder or some chiles? Not even a nice haul of silk would get me on a high risk voyage like they faced back in the day.

    The motivating factor for the vast majority of mankind's endeavors is and has been-- whether 500 years ago or 5,000 years ago-- the pursuit of beautiful females from foreign lands.

    Why do most people travel to Sweden for today-- for the pickled herring?

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    I'd like to recommend a book called Pitcairns' Island (by Charles Nordhoff and James Norman Hall) which is based on the real life events following the famous Mutiny on the Bounty. This novel gives great insight to how men (and women) operate when they've left modern society and are forced to rebuild a working system of community.

    It may be possible to draw parallels between these more modern folks in the Pacific, and the ancient hg I and hg R peoples encountering one another for the first time in Europe-- a new society was forged by the uniting of two existing cultures. And it also very much illustrates my point that beautiful young women are a tremendous motivating force.

    I also get a kick out this book because it gives an almost comically accurate portrait of different y-haplogroups in action. From the secretive hooch hoarding Scotsman, to the Noble Polynesian tribal leader, to the probable haplogroup I crewman that loses his thread of reality-- but retains his bone crushing strength-- toward the novel's conclusion (don't want to spoil the ending for anyone who wants to read it). Also touched upon in this tale is the power of both stone and ancestor worship, which we also see in the primitive European cultures.

    **EDIT**
    Sparkey's more scholarly take is spot on by the way. R1a and to a lesser extent R1b were proto I-E drivers. Maybe some J2 further South.

    **EDIT II**
    And while it's nice to imagine that R and I live together in happy harmony-- you may find it of note that R1b occupies EVERY single royal family line in Northern and Western Europe as well as almost every U.S. Presidential seat I can find. (Except for Calvin Coolidge and of course Obama). Someone is paying close attention to this genetic stuff-- and they have been for a loooonng time.

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    at Sparkey

    Whats the correct opinion on how old R1b in Europe is? You claim its not "that" old and somewhere else i read that its post last Glacial maximum (~12.000 years ago).
    But, the fact that:
    Hans-J├╝rgen Bandelt - Human Mitochondrial DNA and the Evolution of Homo Sapiens (2006)
    "R1a and R1b are both present in Indian populations, in both tribal and caste groups, between them amounting to a third of Indian Y-chromosome lineages....caste groups have received substantially more 'Indo-Aryan' genetic input from the north"

    Inclines that Indo-Europeans have carried it into Europe (Kurgan phase III, 4th mill. BC), but the fact that Iberians(basques) were a NON-Indo-European (not even proto) people shows that R1b was also present in pre-Indo-European Europe.

    And whats not Mysterious about the Sardinians being distinct from their environment (Mediterranean)? whether they descent from the Pyrenees or not is secondary. its not even established whether the Nuragic people were Indo-European or not. But since you claim its all well known/all questions answered, than lets hear it.

    at nordicfoyer

    True, and what your saying corresponds with Archaeology (and Anthropology). The migrating people always mixed with the already existing populations. Thats why there were always NEW cultures as opposed to the same culture brought in by the migrants. But i think that attraction for the female population is more a reason for a conquest than an entire/complete migration: Rape of the Sabine women, Helen of Troy etc

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    Quote Originally Posted by Nobody1 View Post
    Whats the correct opinion on how old R1b in Europe is? You claim its not "that" old and somewhere else i read that its post last Glacial maximum (~12.000 years ago).
    I don't know about "correct opinion" but using the same methodology on R1b in Europe and I in Europe tends to give an estimate of R1b being around 1/4 of the age of I. I've posted before about R1b subclade estimates using Nordtvedt's methodology, which is the most popular for I subclade estimates. I could probably track down some other similar methodologies for comparison if you need additional ones (Klyosov's, etc.).

    Post-LGM was a popular theory based on frequency analysis, prior to STR dating, diversity analysis, and ancient DNA tests started converging to show that R1b is younger than that in Europe. Of course, we're still not at a perfect answer yet.

    Quote Originally Posted by Nobody1 View Post
    Inclines that Indo-Europeans have carried it into Europe (Kurgan phase III, 4th mill. BC), but the fact that Iberians(basques) were a NON-Indo-European (not even proto) people shows that R1b was also present in pre-Indo-European Europe.
    Or it could show that they have a founder effect of R1b that drifted into their population from IE populations. R1b certainly isn't oldest in the Basques. I don't find the Basques compelling evidence that R1b didn't spread with IE... although I could imagine a situation in which the initial R1b advance occurred shortly before the initial IE advance in Western Europe, with the Basques forming from the initial R1b advance immediately prior to their neighbors adopting IE. I suppose the R1b frequency in the Basques is effectively unresolved.

    Quote Originally Posted by Nobody1 View Post
    And whats not Mysterious about the Sardinians being distinct from their environment (Mediterranean)? whether they descent from the Pyrenees or not is secondary. its not even established whether the Nuragic people were Indo-European or not. But since you claim its all well known/all questions answered, than lets hear it.
    Did I claim that? I thought you were suggesting that the I2-M26 in Sardinians was mysterious because it was unrelated to continental I2, which didn't sound right to me, so I asked what you meant.

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    Quote Originally Posted by Nobody1 View Post

    at nordicfoyer. But i think that attraction for the female population is more a reason for a conquest than an entire/complete migration: Rape of the Sabine women, Helen of Troy etc
    I agree, but when we look at what's happening to Sweden in real time-- how do we describe that? Is it an attempted genetic conquest or a complete migration. Either way the regional autosomal will reflect serious impact.

    And Nobody, the relatively high hg I in Sardinia jives with my refuge theory as well. Rocky, hilly island= region that would be difficult for chariots and even horses to gain much of an advantage. My comments may sound light-hearted and even silly from time to time, but they are exceedingly well researched.
    Last edited by nordicwarrior; 18-03-13 at 22:22. Reason: add sentences

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    at Sparkey

    I dont really get your basque logic.
    Fact is that the basques today are over 80% Y-Hg R1b. Now if you claim there was an "R1b advance" than 1. by whom and 2. if you meant Indo-Europeans, well than that must make the basques the most Indo-European people on the planet. But thats exactly NOT the case, they are NOT Indo-European and they speak a language akin to ancient Iberian. And big surprise, the Iberians were NON -Indo-Europeans as well.
    And isnt it starnge that where ever the Iberians settled (Iberia, Brittany, Britain, Ireland) the population today is still largely R1b. Coincidence?
    Now, since the Urheimat of the Indo-Europeans is within the range (Europe-Asia) of Hg R, there is a good possibility for the Indo-Europeans themselves to be carriers of Hg R1b. As is (most-likely) the case in India and the Iranian plateau. Based on that i consider Hg R1b to be both Pre (NON) - as well as indo-European.

    As for Sardinia,
    "I thought you were suggesting that the I2-M26 in Sardinians was mysterious because it was unrelated to continental I2"

    No, i was def. not suggesting anything like that, i was just pointing out that one of the regions (apart from Balkans and Scandinavia) with an unusually high Hg I rate (40% I2-M26 [Rootsi et al. (2004)]) is an Island in the Mediterranean. which is distinct and all the island has to offer is a distinct Civ.; the Nuragic Civilization. Mysterious.

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    Quote Originally Posted by Nobody1 View Post
    at Sparkey

    I dont really get your basque logic.
    Fact is that the basques today are over 80% Y-Hg R1b. Now if you claim there was an "R1b advance" than 1. by whom and 2. if you meant Indo-Europeans, well than that must make the basques the most Indo-European people on the planet. But thats exactly NOT the case, they are NOT Indo-European and they speak a language akin to ancient Iberian. And big surprise, the Iberians were NON -Indo-Europeans as well.
    And isnt it starnge that where ever the Iberians settled (Iberia, Brittany, Britain, Ireland) the population today is still largely R1b. Coincidence?
    Now, since the Urheimat of the Indo-Europeans is within the range (Europe-Asia) of Hg R, there is a good possibility for the Indo-Europeans themselves to be carriers of Hg R1b. As is (most-likely) the case in India and the Iranian plateau. Based on that i consider Hg R1b to be both Pre (NON) - as well as indo-European.

    As for Sardinia,
    "I thought you were suggesting that the I2-M26 in Sardinians was mysterious because it was unrelated to continental I2"

    No, i was def. not suggesting anything like that, i was just pointing out that one of the regions (apart from Balkans and Scandinavia) with an unusually high Hg I rate (40% I2-M26 [Rootsi et al. (2004)]) is an Island in the Mediterranean. which is distinct and all the island has to offer is a distinct Civ.; the Nuragic Civilization. Mysterious.
    When did Iberians settle in the British Isles?
    'Wise men speak only of what they know' - J.R.R. Tolkien

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    Quote Originally Posted by Nobody1 View Post
    I dont really get your basque logic.
    Fact is that the basques today are over 80% Y-Hg R1b. Now if you claim there was an "R1b advance" than 1. by whom and 2. if you meant Indo-Europeans, well than that must make the basques the most Indo-European people on the planet.
    1. I'm not sure. The primary spread of R1b in Western/Central Europe seems to date to the Chalcolithic and/or Bronze Age. Who does that fit best? I have guesses, and some could fit IE speakers.
    2. Not necessarily, it could mean that the Basques descend largely from IE speakers on their patrilines. It doesn't say anything about their other lineages, nor does it say anything about their language or culture. In general, I find that Y-DNA distributions tend to magnify the effect of migrations.

    Quote Originally Posted by Nobody1 View Post
    But thats exactly NOT the case, they are NOT Indo-European and they speak a language akin to ancient Iberian. And big surprise, the Iberians were NON -Indo-Europeans as well.
    I think there is general consensus that the Basques descend largely from the Aquitani, rather than the Iberians. I don't know of strong evidence to link Iberian to Basque.

    Quote Originally Posted by Nobody1 View Post
    And isnt it starnge that where ever the Iberians settled (Iberia, Brittany, Britain, Ireland) the population today is still largely R1b. Coincidence?
    The proposal that Iberians settled Britanny, Britain, and Ireland is new to me. Doesn't sound likely at all.

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    spread of R1b

    if it occurred during the Chalcolithic, what about the Bell beaker culture? west to east (non-indo-european) and existing in a region were most of the R1b carriers are today as well as a spread to Central Europe. It wasnt until the proper Bronze age that cultures from the Black sea area are clearly detected on the Baltic coast and in the Danubian region Tumulus-Urnfield cultures, and burial sites containing quantities of swords and daggers of an invading people.

    Basque Bust

    There is either something fundamentally wrong with a people that have a paternal (Indo-European) lineage of over 80% yet have/share no Indo-European linguistic affiliations or culture; OR there is something fundamentally wrong with this theory.

    Jules Michelet - History of France Vol.II (1847)
    "The comparison of the ancient names of places in the Iberian peninsula with the Basque tongue, shows this tongue to have been that of the Iberians; and as this people seems to have had only one tongue, Iberian nations and nations speaking Basque are synonymous expressions."

    basques = iberians = Non Indo-Europeans

    Aquitani or Iberian

    Charles Anthon - A classical dictionary (1841)
    "The Aquitani, according to Strabo (190), differed from the Gallic race both in physical constitution and in language. They resembled, he tells us, the Iberians rather than the Gauls."

    James Cowles Prichard - Researches Into the Physical History of Mankind, Vol.II (1826)
    "CAESAR informs us, that Gaul was occupied in his time by three nations, who differed from each other in language and manners. The third of these nations, viz. the Aquitani, were, as we have already observed, a branch of the Iberian stock"

    Iberian was not ONE tribe it was more a tribal confederation consisting of many tribes; one of them the Aquitani.

    Iberians of Britain

    the Silures were one of the most powerful tribes in Britain (Wales).

    Tacitus - Agricola (98 AD)
    "The dark complexion of the Silures, their usually curly hair, and the fact that Spain is the opposite shore to them, are an evidence that Iberians of a former date crossed over and occupied these parts."

    Rev. John Evans - A Popular History of the Ancient Britons (1901)
    "There certainly was one race, denominated the Iberians, a non-Aryan [non-Indo-European] people, a remnant of whom existed in the time of Caesar as the Silurian tribes of South Wales - mainly in 'Monmouthshire' and the adjoining districts. When the Celts came they found these people in the possession of the country and war ensued. The Celts ultimately conquered the aboriginal Iberians and finally destroyed or absorbed them in the course of time."

    Ancient writers did not have any extensive knowledge about Britain, so Tacitus and the modern British scholars are all of the Documented history of Iberians in Britain. There is however a vague passage in Caesar's war book.

    Julius Caesar - De bello Gallico (50 BC)
    "the interior of Britain was inhabited by those who were immemorially natives of the island, but the maritime parts by the Belgae."

    So, the natives were not Gallic (Belgae) and since they were immemorially natives,prob. akin to the Silures Iberians.
    There are also endless quotes about the Irish Picts being Iberian.

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    2 members found this post helpful.
    Quote Originally Posted by Nobody1 View Post
    spread of R1b

    if it occurred during the Chalcolithic, what about the Bell beaker culture? west to east (non-indo-european) and existing in a region were most of the R1b carriers are today as well as a spread to Central Europe. It wasnt until the proper Bronze age that cultures from the Black sea area are clearly detected on the Baltic coast and in the Danubian region Tumulus-Urnfield cultures, and burial sites containing quantities of swords and daggers of an invading people.
    We have an ancient Beaker sample that tested R1b. Unfortunately, we don't know what kind of R1b it was, so our analysis is drastically hampered. IIRC they testing nothing but U106.

    I've generally envisioned Beaker culture as not spreading R1b west-to-east, as Beaker pottery did as a whole, but rather I've envisioned Beaker culture as a catalyst for an initial wave of R1b westward, which later expanded to near its modern percentages in the Bronze Age. That seems to fit the data best to me. Otherwise, it's difficult to explain the total lack of R1b in the early Neolithic, but the appearance of it in the Chalcolithic, despite the west-to-east spread of Beaker culture.

    Quote Originally Posted by Nobody1 View Post
    Basque Bust

    There is either something fundamentally wrong with a people that have a paternal (Indo-European) lineage of over 80% yet have/share no Indo-European linguistic affiliations or culture; OR there is something fundamentally wrong with this theory.
    Why is that? I2a-Din was once non-IE, yet it is dominant in certain modern IE populations, like Bosnians. Is there something fundamentally wrong with the Bosnians? I don't get why you don't think the opposite could have happened in a given case, in which R1b could have gone IE to non-IE. Especially because the Basques are a people who don't have locally ancient Y lineages outside of their I2a1a, and who are local full-genome outliers.

    I'm not saying for certain that R1b in Basques descends from ancient IE speakers, but I'm still not seeing why we should rule it out.

    Quote Originally Posted by Nobody1 View Post
    (1847) ... (1841) ... (190) ... (1826) ... (98 AD) ... (1901)...

    Ancient writers did not have any extensive knowledge about Britain, so Tacitus and the modern British scholars are all of the Documented history of Iberians in Britain.
    Do you have any more recent scholarship that doesn't rely on ancient people observing that they looked similar to one another? Even nowadays, Monmouthshire is perhaps the darkest complexioned place in Britain, but genetic tests show no important similarity to Iberians. Stronger evidence would be genetic evidence, or linguistic evidence, or archaeological evidence, but none of those converge to show that the Aquitani or the Silures are branches of the Iberians AFAIK.

    I could believe that the Aquitani and the Iberians were closely linked in some way, perhaps as branches of a common ancestor at some point. There may be evidence yet to find. The Silures, not so much... I have trouble imagining them as anything but coming from the same stock as the Ordovices, Demetae, Cornovii, etc.

    Quote Originally Posted by Nobody1 View Post
    There is however a vague passage in Caesar's war book.

    Julius Caesar - De bello Gallico (50 BC)
    "the interior of Britain was inhabited by those who were immemorially natives of the island, but the maritime parts by the Belgae."

    So, the natives were not Gallic (Belgae) and since they were immemorially natives,prob. akin to the Silures Iberians.
    The Belgae were Gallic peoples who came to southern Britain shortly before the time of Caesar. The natives were the rest of the tribes in Britain (Dumnonii, Catuvellauni, Iceni, Silures...). Rather than showing that the other tribes were "akin to the Silures Iberians," this quote rather seems to indicate that the non-Belgae, like the Silures, were akin to each other and not of foreign stock, including Iberian.

    How in the world would you fit the distribution of Gaelic into your theories, or the position of the Brythonic languages as intermediate between Gaelic and Gaulish? Yikes. It becomes much more difficult if you assume a huge swath of Iberians who were not supplanted until the Belgae.

    Quote Originally Posted by Nobody1 View Post
    There are also endless quotes about the Irish Picts being Iberian.
    Guh... from who?

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    Quote Originally Posted by sparkey View Post
    We have an ancient Beaker sample that tested R1b. Unfortunately, we don't know what kind of R1b it was, so our analysis is drastically hampered. IIRC they testing nothing but U106.

    I've generally envisioned Beaker culture as not spreading R1b west-to-east, as Beaker pottery did as a whole, but rather I've envisioned Beaker culture as a catalyst for an initial wave of R1b westward, which later expanded to near its modern percentages in the Bronze Age. That seems to fit the data best to me. Otherwise, it's difficult to explain the total lack of R1b in the early Neolithic, but the appearance of it in the Chalcolithic, despite the west-to-east spread of Beaker culture.



    Why is that? I2a-Din was once non-IE, yet it is dominant in certain modern IE populations, like Bosnians. Is there something fundamentally wrong with the Bosnians? I don't get why you don't think the opposite could have happened in a given case, in which R1b could have gone IE to non-IE. Especially because the Basques are a people who don't have locally ancient Y lineages outside of their I2a1a, and who are local full-genome outliers.

    I'm not saying for certain that R1b in Basques descends from ancient IE speakers, but I'm still not seeing why we should rule it out.



    Do you have any more recent scholarship that doesn't rely on ancient people observing that they looked similar to one another? Even nowadays, Monmouthshire is perhaps the darkest complexioned place in Britain, but genetic tests show no important similarity to Iberians. Stronger evidence would be genetic evidence, or linguistic evidence, or archaeological evidence, but none of those converge to show that the Aquitani or the Silures are branches of the Iberians AFAIK.

    I could believe that the Aquitani and the Iberians were closely linked in some way, perhaps as branches of a common ancestor at some point. There may be evidence yet to find. The Silures, not so much... I have trouble imagining them as anything but coming from the same stock as the Ordovices, Demetae, Cornovii, etc.



    The Belgae were Gallic peoples who came to southern Britain shortly before the time of Caesar. The natives were the rest of the tribes in Britain (Dumnonii, Catuvellauni, Iceni, Silures...). Rather than showing that the other tribes were "akin to the Silures Iberians," this quote rather seems to indicate that the non-Belgae, like the Silures, were akin to each other and not of foreign stock, including Iberian.

    How in the world would you fit the distribution of Gaelic into your theories, or the position of the Brythonic languages as intermediate between Gaelic and Gaulish? Yikes. It becomes much more difficult if you assume a huge swath of Iberians who were not supplanted until the Belgae.



    Guh... from who?
    In regards to Aquitani, their language derived from Gascon, which derived from Basque. They both, aquitani and gascon belonged to the occitan language group.
    Logic says these iberian basques moved into or originated in the gascon/aquitani area.
    The aquitani if they where gallic would not be their true original etnicity.

    The genetics of what is called french-basque would be ideal to study
    Father's Mtdna H95a1
    Grandfather Mtdna T2b24
    Great Grandfather Mtdna T1a1e
    GMother paternal side YDna R1b-S8172
    Mother's YDna R1a-Z282

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    Wow, speaking of well researched! Good job...

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    1 members found this post helpful.
    Quote Originally Posted by Barrister View Post
    Thank you for both of your posts, respectively, i learned alot.
    I knew this about the royal leanings of R1b all over europe including the Akhenaten/Tutankhamun line. But, what struck me was that i wondered how this was the case, when seemingly all of the smartest and most physically imposing people i know personally are all I, including myself (not to toot my own horn).
    Also like you mentioned the Anglo-Saxon and Norman invasions of the England/ the Isles, and this whole western meat-eating culture. Do you feel this would be a trait of hg I? Coming from a hunter-gatherer culture more recently, and i also read that hg I are more commonly affected by gluten and lactose intolerances?
    My cousin is I1a, i'm i2b1 (he is 6'5 and i'm 6'2) Is hg I correlated with tallness?
    What really got me thinking was this Germanic reputation for engineering, creativity and thinking "outside the box", so to speak. Not just limited to germany, but the entire germanosphere.
    Personally I do think hg I can be correlated with tallness. Although height is an autosomal trait, the association shouldn't be ignored.

    Now I am going to throw some cold water on your hg I theory being the "smartest and most physically imposing" (I too am an "I" member-- but I'm reporting what I know to be the truth). Haplogroup R, especially R1b, does seem to have some important advantages. Being more socially involved (like the hg R members tend to be) pays huge, life long dividends. I think modern science is going to find that there is a measurable difference in testosterone levels between some of the haplogroups, and that the "I"'s will have more than the "R"'s on average. This is I's great advantage... and also a large disadvantage.

    Having higher testosterone enables increased drive and concentration, but it probably makes the carrier more taciturn and less likely to play well with others. Great on the football field and boardroom, not so great for navigating everyday life.

    I do think there's something to the engineering association with hg I, but the trade off is that most of us might not want to apply for the job posting of cruise ship social director. When the results of Northern European genetic studies are released showing the career paths of hg I vs. hg R-- I think we will see more hg. I members in top level positions in sports and business, but also more members doing time in jail or prison.

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    Quote Originally Posted by nordicfoyer View Post
    Personally I do think hg I can be correlated with tallness. Although height is an autosomal trait, the association shouldn't be ignored.

    Now I am going to throw some cold water on your hg I theory being the "smartest and most physically imposing" (I too am an "I" member-- but I'm reporting what I know to be the truth). Haplogroup R, especially R1b, does seem to have some important advantages. Being more socially involved (like the hg R members tend to be) pays huge, life long dividends. I think modern science is going to find that there is a measurable difference in testosterone levels between some of the haplogroups, and that the "I"'s will have more than the "R"'s on average. This is I's great advantage... and also a large disadvantage.

    Having higher testosterone enables increased drive and concentration, but it probably makes the carrier more taciturn and less likely to play well with others. Great on the football field and boardroom, not so great for navigating everyday life.

    I do think there's something to the engineering association with hg I, but the trade off is that most of us might not want to apply for the job posting of cruise ship social director. When the results of Northern European genetic studies are released showing the career paths of hg I vs. hg R-- I think we will see more hg. I members in top level positions in sports and business, but also more members doing time in jail or prison.
    I would definitely agree with you. My cousin and i both are at a loss, socially but very capable. He's going into politics and i really cannot imagine him as a charismatic figure because of social awkwardness, lol. He seems to be doing okay though, already went with our Prime minister to APEC summit in Russia.
    Warren Buffet is another prime example of this. Billionaire but so unsocial or even anti-social, that he crams himself into his tiny office without any computer and just reads quietly all day looking for investment opportunities.

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