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Thread: Average Germans are much poorer than average Italians and Spaniards, says Bundesbank

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    Average Germans are much poorer than average Italians and Spaniards, says Bundesbank



    A preliminary Report from Bundesbank has leaked which shows that average Germans are much poorer than average Italians, Spaniards, French and Austrians. The wealth does not simply represent bank accounts, but includes also house ownership and debt. Most important are the blue bars which represent the median (= 50% have more than X, 50% have less than X). The wealth in Germany is also more unevenly distributed than in the other countries. Note, that wealth is not the same as liquidity, as many Spaniards are very indebted due to their house and therefore have low liquid cash at hand. Germans and Austrians are also much less often house owners than these other peoples, although this is not surprising as it has always been like that traditionally. But the total wealth comparison might be more surprising for someones. For me it is not. Germans have been successfully fleeced for the ever "greater cause" (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Agenda_2010).


    Source:
    http://www.faz.net/aktuell/wirtschaf...-12121631.html

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    I am not surprised,
    same with China, and every 'deep' in industry state.

    In china also the rich are very-very rich, and in some areas the poor are very-very poor,
    that because Banking system is helping the very rich, and strong-rich banks means much poverty to people,

    on the other hand, the how much rich is someone is little bit strange,
    for example in my country,
    a house owner in heart of Athens may have a propertie about >half a million E
    same m2 in a village might cost 20 000 E,

    So in order to explain this we must search
    how much cost an X m2 flat in a German, city, how much cost in a German village, how much cost to build one,
    and on the other hand,
    how much cost to preserve, to pay taxes,for these houses,
    and how much you earn if you put that money in a bank and stay in rent.
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    I found the press notice in English on the Bundesbank website. It would be interesting to see a full European ranking. I find it rather surprising that the Spaniards are richer than everybody else.
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    Quote Originally Posted by Maciamo View Post
    I find it rather surprising that the Spaniards are richer than everybody else.
    It is probably highly dependent on the spanish house prices.

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    the whole also has to do with taxes etc,

    for example due to the work I used to do I have extra percentance in 7 houses which I do not want, and which I do not know what to do,

    as engineer I was partner in a small building company,
    after 2007 we could not manage to sell these houses due to crisis,
    State in order to get more taxes raised the value to 33%
    but 'commercial' price drop about 45%
    so in pappers I have % in 7 houses which are calculated to 1 750 000 E about, but my ex-partner who decided to stay in bussines sell them for 1 050 000 E and he can not find a buyer, yet if he finnally sell them the taxes will be paid not for 1 000 000 but for 1 750 000 named prize,
    so sometimes we might speak about bubble numeral forunes in order to taxe raise, same way with banks.
    that is why case is complicated with such statistics,

    But the truth is elsewere,
    In South Europe children stay with parents sometimes until death,
    In N Europe that is not so common,
    So as a Greek/S European I left my family at 19, and return to my fathers 'family' house at 36 with my family, to take care of my parents as first-born male.
    that means lower bills and spends.
    such cases are rare in N Europe so people have to spend more for a house.

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    I see two flaws in the study:

    1. Indeed Household sizes are below average in Germany (2.0 vs. 2.3 EU average).
    2. figures for Spain are from 2008

    The thing with taxes works in both ways, hence it should be not the reason.

    What is clear is that Germans are no longer the fat cats they've been 15 years ago.

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    Now the ECB has published the whole-euro-statistics. Here, the lower median of Germans are even the poorest overall:

    EDIT: https://www.ecb.int/pub/pdf/other/ecbsp2en.pdf

    http://www.ecb.int/press/pr/date/201...0409_1.en.html



    Source:
    http://www.faz.net/aktuell/wirtschaf...-12142944.html

    The already mentioned flaws aside, it is still a significant result. The special case of East Germany certainly also dragged Germany further down, although it barely weights 20%.
    Last edited by ElHorsto; 10-04-13 at 18:28. Reason: completed by main reference

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    Even with the East Germany playing the West down. It's still a bit far fetched. I have a really difficult time believing that Germans are poorer than Italians, let alone Spaniards, in per capita real terms.
    Here is a map: http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/List_of...y_average_wage

    German inequality is a bit higher than Scandinavia, but on the other hand, less of it is consumed in taxes.

    However I wouldn't doubt that the actual Germany's socio reality is more unfair than it was ten years ago.

    The developments in years was very clear:
    1) The German ruling class impoverished the German people to increase "competitiveness" in relation to China (it also had the side effect of making rich people even richer), the number of billionaires has increased in Germany.

    2) Now Germany wants to "universalize", the Agenda 2010 reforms ("one euro jobs," Hartz IV, etc) did indeed help cause the euro crisis as well. Germany unilaterally restrained its labor costs while most other euro nations followed the normal development. This led to huge imbalances. (I'm not saying that the Southern Europeans are not at all to blame, some had excessive deficits and some were irresponsible in their labor costs, but the German policy also strongly contributed to the crisis.)

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    Quote Originally Posted by Balder View Post
    Even with the East Germany playing the West down. It's still a bit far fetched. I have a really difficult time believing that Germans are poorer than Italians, let alone Spaniards, in per capita real terms.
    Here is a map: http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/List_of...y_average_wage
    Well, northern Italy has been usually extremely wealthy, that's not so surprising. I'm certain that they are wealthier than Germans. But south Italy is the poor's house with half the income of the north. The difference is much bigger than between east and west Germany. So it is not clear to me how Italy as a whole compares really to Germany.

    There is also another thing: The Hartz IV reform implemented a programmed statistical wealth drain, which was not present before in Germany. In case of unemployment more than one year, it forces the unemployed to spend almost all of his savings until he gets financial help. It means after working and saving 30 years it can happen that 7 years of unemployment eradicate the savings of 30 years. The help then is unrelated to the wages from before, as if he never worked.
    I don't know whether other countries have similar rules (they are based on Friedman and Thatcher), probably they do. But for Germany this was a new thing which I believe is a major explanation for the results of the study. Hartz IV imposed the risks of the labour market upon everyones savings. In stock markets, risks equal prices, for good reason.

    But I agree, the results still seem somewhat far-fetched. Especially the spanish house prices where ridiculously high in 2008. There are additional flaws:

    3. The data are based on voluntary phone questionaries. Maybe many people refused to talk because they actually had good savings which they wanted not to reveal. On the other hand, property owners might tend to overestimate their house value.

    4. Governmental pension entitlements are higher in Germany than in other countries and not included in the savings consideration. On the other hand, the risk to not become old enough (67) to enjoy it is a big minus for this type of wealth.

    Still despite the obvious flaws, the study bears interesting grains of truth.

    German inequality is a bit higher than Scandinavia, but on the other hand, less of it is consumed in taxes.

    However I wouldn't doubt that the actual Germany's socio reality is more unfair than it was ten years ago.

    The developments in years was very clear:
    1) The German ruling class impoverished the German people to increase "competitiveness" in relation to China (it also had the side effect of making rich people even richer), the number of billionaires has increased in Germany.

    2) Now Germany wants to "universalize", the Agenda 2010 reforms ("one euro jobs," Hartz IV, etc) did indeed help cause the euro crisis as well. Germany unilaterally restrained its labor costs while most other euro nations followed the normal development. This led to huge imbalances. (I'm not saying that the Southern Europeans are not at all to blame, some had excessive deficits and some were irresponsible in their labor costs, but the German policy also strongly contributed to the crisis.)
    Yes, exactly! And I would add that within a one-currency-zone, one region can never defeat the other without subsequent need of bailout of the defeated. Otherwise the zone must break-up. But there is a saying: if two blame each-other, then thirds might have the best laugh.

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    1 members found this post helpful.
    But social bonuses make the situation better!

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    Quote Originally Posted by nurset View Post
    But social bonuses make the situation better!
    Still better then in Ukraine or Bulgaria, hooray!

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    The economic development in Germany was not only influenced by China. During the past 10 years, Germany had the lowest GDP growth in the Euro zone, which is not quite a sign of competitiveness, and which was an effect of convergence with the poorer EURO members. Wages and prices stagnated while they raised in the rest of EURO zone. This is called 'real devaluation' and this was naturally happening in all economically weaker countries before the EURO. As a result, Germany was unable to retain a high import rate, which funnily resulted in a misleadingly good-looking export-import balance. But the true cause is the weaker german purchasing power elsewhere, making it harder to import capital, such that the difference of export minus import looks positive.

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    In Spain so far have owned the house was to have a great investment, since one of the favorite slogans of Spanish policy was that housing would never come down, but now it is not. People who bought a flat for 60 million pesetas will never sell at a higher price or even at the same price. My parents for example have three homes. Now banks are large inmoviliarias and evictions is the order of the day, Spanish politics in the service of the bankers and rich.

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