i1 haplogroup welsh subgroup

[tumi]

Hello I am new to this site and dna ancestry in general.Could somebody enlighten me as my report indicates I1 subgroup y gata h4 11 but also includes German subgroup dys456 value 13.To which group do I belong?

[spruithean]

Hello I am new to this site and dna ancestry in general.Could somebody enlighten me as my report indicates I1 subgroup y gata h4 11 but also includes German subgroup dys456 value 13.To which group do I belong?

It might be easier to see all your markers to find your grouping.

the Southern cluster, most common in Denmark, Germany, the Low Countries and the British Isles. It corresponds to Ken Nordtvedt's Anglo-Saxon haplotype (originally Danish and North German).

• the Danish/Polish group usually has a DYS557 value greater than 15.
• the Western group, comprising the Low countries, England, Scotland and Ireland, matches the Z58+ subclade. It probably matches Anglo-Saxon and Frisian/Batavian ancestry.
  
  • there appears to be a specific Welsh subgroup defined by a GATA-H4 value superior or equal to 11. This subgroup is also found in England and on the continent, but is especially common in Wales.
  
  
• the German group, is the most common type of I1 in Germany, France, Italy and Central Europe, but is also found in the British Isles and to a lower extent in Scandinavia. It is defined by a DYS456 value inferior to 15. It corresponds to the Z63+ subclade.

For the Welsh group anything equal to or higher than 11 for Y-GATA H4 will fit and anything lower to a value of 15 for DYS456 will place you somewhat in the German group. I would imagine that your haplotype fits in with the Western subgrouping of the so-called "Southern Cluster".

[tumi]

Thankyou for your response.Below is my ystr.
dys456,389 1,390,389 2,458,19,385a,385b,393,391,439,635,392,y-gata h4,437,438,448
13, 12, 22, 29, 15, 14, 13, 14, 13, 10, 11, 21, 10, 11, 16, 10, 20,
! hope that it is clear and thanks again.

[spruithean]

Thankyou for your response.Below is my ystr.
dys456,389 1,390,389 2,458,19,385a,385b,393,391,439,635,392,y-gata h4,437,438,448
13, 12, 22, 29, 15, 14, 13, 14, 13, 10, 11, 21, 10, 11, 16, 10, 20,
! hope that it is clear and thanks again.

From what I can see in your haplotype, you seem to fit with I1-Z138-AS1313. Though your haplotype seems to be more than 12 markers and I don't recognize the format at the moment.

Have you looked at the Haplogroup I1 DNA Project at FTDNA? I seem to recall the Welsh AS subgroups are I1-Z138+ (I1a3b).

The Welsh subgroup of the western group is found outside of Wales... so I don't think any origin there is set in stone just yet. There needs to be more samples outside of the British Isles and more so on the continent of Europe.

[tumi]

I have looked at ftdna but have not seen the project.
I wonder if this welsh sub group could be a result of germanic Roman auxilleries e.g. Alemmmani, Marcomanni etc.?There are records of these tribes in Roman Britain.Thanks for your response.

[spruithean]

I have looked at ftdna but have not seen the project.
I wonder if this welsh sub group could be a result of germanic Roman auxilleries e.g. Alemmmani, Marcomanni etc.?There are records of these tribes in Roman Britain.Thanks for your response.

It could be a result of the Roman mercenaries of Germanic origin, or it could have made it's way to Wales with Anglo-Saxons we can't ignore that there was some intermarriage amongst royal Anglo-Saxon and Briton houses (also another thing that we can't ignore is the names of kings especially those of Gewissae/Wessex names like Cerdic, Cyneric, Ceadda, etc) or Norsemen and maybe even Normans.

I1 of any flavour in the isles as so many possible sources to look at. It can become very frustrating.

[Jackson]

It could be a result of the Roman mercenaries of Germanic origin, or it could have made it's way to Wales with Anglo-Saxons we can't ignore that there was some intermarriage amongst royal Anglo-Saxon and Briton houses (also another thing that we can't ignore is the names of kings especially those of Gewissae/Wessex names like Cerdic, Cyneric, Ceadda, etc) or Norsemen and maybe even Normans.

I1 of any flavour in the isles as so many possible sources to look at. It can become very frustrating.

Could also be a good candidate for pre-Roman I1 in Britain. I'd be surprised if there was none, even if it was only a couple of percent.

[spruithean]

Could also be a good candidate for pre-Roman I1 in Britain. I'd be surprised if there was none, even if it was only a couple of percent.

Indeed. There has to be some minority of pre-Roman I1 somewhere in Britain.

[SvenHayden]

I too am wondering about my i1 results. So my dys557 is a value greater than 15 which would put me in the Danish/Polish section of the southern cluster. But my dys456 is a value less than 15 which would put me in the German section of the southern cluster. So what does this mean for me?

[SvenHayden]

Some back story to explain myself:
Ken Nordtvedt predicts I am AS1313 (what led me to this thread).
Here are my actual 67 Markers. What do yall think Spruithean and Jackson?

Panel 1 (1-12)
DYS393 - 13
DYS390 - 23
DYS19 - 14
DYS391 - 10
DYS385 - 13-14
DYS426 - 11
DYS388 - 14
DYS439 - 13
DYS389I - 12
DYS392 - 11
DYS389II - 28

Panel 2 (13-25)
DYS458 - 15
DYS459 - 8-9
DYS455 - 8
DYS454 - 11
DYS447 - 23
DYS437 - 16
DYS448 - 20
DYS449 - 28
DYS464 - 12-14-15-16

Panel 3 (26-37)
DYS460 - 11
Y-GATA-H4 - 10
YCAII - 19-21
DYS456 - 14
DYS607 - 13
DYS576 - 16
DYS570 - 19
CDY - 36-37
DYS442 - 12
DYS438 - 10

Panel 4 (38-47)
DYS531 - 10
DYS578 - 8
DYF395S1 - 15-15
DYS590 - 8
DYS537 - 11
DYS641 - 10
DYS472 - 8
DYF406S1 - 9
DYS511 - 9

Panel 4 (48-60)
DYS425 - 12
DYS413 - 23-25
DYS557 - 16
DYS594 - 10
DYS436 - 12
DYS490 - 12
DYS534 - 14
DYS450 - 8
DYS444 - 13
DYS481 - 25
DYS520 - 21
DYS446 - 13

Panel 4 (61-67)
DYS617 - 13
DYS568 - 11
DYS487 - 13
DYS572 - 11
DYS640 - 11
DYS492 - 12
DYS565 - 11

[spruithean]

Sven, On the haplo-I subclade predictor you have a score of 86% for AS1313.

I know the clustering is a little shaky... For myself DYS557 in my grouping is usually 15 and DYS456 is usually 14 (mine is 15... am I a descendant of a Scandinavian of Danish extraction or of an Anglo-Saxon?). Mutations happen which makes things harder to track.

[SvenHayden]

cool! thank you for plugging that in Spruithean! also what all theories are there on as1313's historical affiliations? my family has been in america for a long time but we are fairly certain our Hayden lineage comes from Heydon, Norfolk, UK. this makes my i1 ydna confirmation very intriguing because Norfolk was a place Anglian and Danish Viking concentration. So im thinking our ancestors came over with one of these groups. But i would love to get as close as possible to a reasonable theory on which group we originated from. where all are the as1313 samples claiming ancestry? or where do the as1313 samples live? what theories do we have?

[spruithean]

cool! thank you for plugging that in Spruithean! also what all theories are there on as1313's historical affiliations? my family has been in america for a long time but we are fairly certain our Hayden lineage comes from Heydon, Norfolk, UK. this makes my i1 ydna confirmation very intriguing because Norfolk was a place Anglian and Danish Viking concentration. So im thinking our ancestors came over with one of these groups. But i would love to get as close as possible to a reasonable theory on which group we originated from. where all are the as1313 samples claiming ancestry? or where do the as1313 samples live? what theories do we have?

If we ignore the isles and just look at the continent, we can see AS1313 in the Netherlands, North Germany, Denmark, Norway. Like most of the other AS clades it is quite spread out and doesn't exactly help narrowing down between Angle or Dane. But I would imagine that Angles and Danes shared genes given their area of origin. This is probably the most frustrating part. But something that is entertaining is finding the areas that your closest continental matches come from. For me it would seem to be Denmark... which makes deciphering between Angle and Dane difficult.

For AS1313 I would imagine some form of Germanic input for some lines.

[nordicwarrior]

Remember Spruithean, your ancestors could have been both (first one and then the other). I would be surprised if they weren't Dane and then Angle or more likely Saxon. These tribal alliances were more fluid than most realize.

[SvenHayden]

Great input guys! fascinating point NordicWarbler. This makes me think of something i read concerning the occupation of the "Great Heathen Army" (as it calls the vikings in the anglo saxon chronicle). Someone once wrote that when the Danish vikings landed in norfolk, early in the occupation of the heathen army, the locals were real quick to yield to the army & support them with minimal.fuss. That makes me wonder if ever ancient allegience may have been felt between originally angle locals & fresh off the jutland peninsula immigrants. I know the heathen army showed up in the latter 800s and the angles were showing up as early as the 400s, making the british living in norfolk when the vikings arrived potentially quite estranged to their previous homeland. but who knows. maybe norfolk didnt see the north folk as totally evil enemies. they did adopt viking culture quickly and heavily. perhaps the best way to think of.my ancestors is as "both/and."

[tumi]

Dont know if this helps or hinders but a dna sampling of areas of recorded Norse viking settlements by Julian Richards in the uk found that danish and anglo saxon dna was not found to be effective as there was virtualy no difference but that was in the BBC 2 programme (Blood of the Vikings)however Norwegian dna proved conclusive in descendants still in those areas.Subsequently it has been found in some sampling in Leicestershire in a programme by Michael Wood historian this was quite distinct from the normal danish and anglo saxon dna in the same area,Perhaps Norwegian and swedish norse joined up with the danish invasions?

[spruithean]

Dont know if this helps or hinders but a dna sampling of areas of recorded Norse viking settlements by Julian Richards in the uk found that danish and anglo saxon dna was not found to be effective as there was virtualy no difference but that was in the BBC 2 programme (Blood of the Vikings)however Norwegian dna proved conclusive in descendants still in those areas.Subsequently it has been found in some sampling in Leicestershire in a programme by Michael Wood historian this was quite distinct from the normal danish and anglo saxon dna in the same area,Perhaps Norwegian and swedish norse joined up with the danish invasions?

I would think the Danes, Norwegians and Swedes were sharing DNA up and down the coasts in Scandinavia. They also ignored the many "Norwegian" samples that would actually fit with the Danish samples.

I think it can be safe to assume that the Isles saw a large amount of migrations and a lot of mixing of cultures.

[Jackson]

Dont know if this helps or hinders but a dna sampling of areas of recorded Norse viking settlements by Julian Richards in the uk found that danish and anglo saxon dna was not found to be effective as there was virtualy no difference but that was in the BBC 2 programme (Blood of the Vikings)however Norwegian dna proved conclusive in descendants still in those areas.Subsequently it has been found in some sampling in Leicestershire in a programme by Michael Wood historian this was quite distinct from the normal danish and anglo saxon dna in the same area,Perhaps Norwegian and swedish norse joined up with the danish invasions?

Probably from all over the place, there are even rune-stones in northern Sweden that talk about loved ones going to England. I imagine it was mainly from coastal areas but i think there were some probably from more far-flung places.

[SvenHayden]

So cool guys! so cool! That does beg a question I've had. What was the true difference between pagan Anglian culture and Viking culture? Were they basically the same people? I mean, I know that is an anachronistic question. But what I'm getting at is what were some of the things that set them apart from each other culturally? It could be big worldview details or small stylistic details. I don't care. I would love to revel in any little difference between them. This would help me appreciate both cultures. I know that what we're learning about Anglian culture is their culture as of the 500-600s. And that Viking culture technically is confined to the period in which norse tribes went "viking" or "bay"ing (raiding from bay to bay), which is the late 700s-800s. I realize this might be like comparing Old western American culture to 21st century American culture. But how different would the ancestors of Danish vikings have been from the Angles that relocated to the British Isles? What are the variations between the two pre-christian cultures?

[Greying Wanderer]

Indeed. There has to be some minority of pre-Roman I1 somewhere in Britain.

If I is mesolithic then a likely place for an indigenous clade to survive might be the Welsh mountains so a Welsh cluster might be indigenous with other clades arriving with Saxons/Vikings/Normans.

[Alarich]

Hello, I am a new man on the forum. I have the same problem like tumi. My y gata h4 11 and dys456 14. Could you help? I would want to know to which SNP I belong according to STR markers. This is my 23 STR markers haplotype:
Dys576 15
Dys389i 12
Dys448 20
Dys389ii 28
Dys19 14
Dys391 10
Dys481 26
Dys549 13
Dys 533 11
Dys438 10
Dys437 16
Dys570 19
Dys635 22
Dys390 22
Dys439 12
Dys392 11
Dys643 12
Dys393 13
Dys458 15
Dys485a 14
Dys385b 14
Dys456 14
Ygatah4 11

[I1a3_Young]

Welcome, Alaric. I don't know much about STR testing as I'm mostly familiar with the more definitive SNP testing. Have you had any tests from places such as 23andMe or Ancestry?

And what a thread, where did these old I1 bros go? I wish they'd come back.

[spruithean]

Running things through the Haplo-I predictor it seems split between I-M253-ND, I-M253-ASgen or I-M253-P. I know these are the old STR names. 23 STRs isn't going to accurately determine much. More STRs could help but SNP testing could be much more definitive.

ND probably means "Norse-Denmark", ASgen means "Anglo-Saxon generic" and P probably means "Poland".

I1a3_Young, I think the fact that I1 is so overwhelmingly clearly represented as Germanic there isn't much to wonder? Perhaps that drove people elsewhere?