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Thread: Serbs and Croats origin from Germanic Scirii and Hirri?

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    I forgot Moesians among Veneti

    my conclusion:

    ancient race of Venethi are: Dacians, Thracians, Moesians and few north Dalmatian tribes (Libourni and Iapodes)...they origin from ancient Venethi of Paphlagonia (south shores of Black sea in Asia minor) that are kicked out of Asia minor due to some war regarding timing probably due to participation in "sea people" conquest...

    Zeruiani whose state is so big that all Slavs come from it......is nothing but a reference to PIE people Serians/Zeruiani/Zoryans/Aryans... .they spread to Asia with conquest of "sea peoples.... as recorded by Egyptians this is not just sea conquest but also big settlement wave via land...
    term "sea people" comes from their worship of Dagon (fish god) and his wife Ser/Asura/Danu/Ishtar/Ishara...

    they were old eastern euroasian R1a with some J2... they cannot be called proto-Slavic as they are source of all PIE languages...
    http://r1a.org/3.htm#11


    I2a-Din is originally Celtic.... it enters into R1a Venethi Balto-Slavic complex with Serdi...it probably influences the language, so it departs from Balto-Slavic, giving explanation of Dalmil's chronicle that Czechs are born among Poles in Croatia land inside Serbian language....

    Liburnians and Iapodes are Venethi...they are same R1a people as Moesians, Thracians and Dacians....this explains increased R1a in north Dalmatia........

    Venethi people speak pre-Balto-Slavic....and Balts are among them. Note here that Aesti or Estonians are probably the thracian tribe Astae
    Astae,[4][5] they appear in the 2nd century BC to 1st century BC
    http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Thracian_tribes
    they move north in 1st century BC....and stay unaffected by language changes introduced with Serdi....


    I2a-Din Serdi give Carpi as child tribe in Dacian areas...
    Serdi and Carpi are origin of Serbs and Croats....

    Scordisci are romanized...which explains why in Slovakia I2a-Din origins from late Vlach settlers from near Danube area...

    Russian primary chronicle is right... early Slavs live in Danube area and some of them move north with spread of Roman empire...
    those are at first "free Dacians"...and later more general free Veneti... or Slobodni(free) Venti from this comes tribal name Slovenci

    which is by Roman writers denoted Sclaveni and adapted by modern Slavs as Sloveni...

    around core of free Venethi or SloVeneti are their border people Venedi and Anti (those tribal names are derived from PIE words meaning "border people")




    among Venedi are Serbs and Croats....De administrando imperio says they are called there "white" but they are in fact called Venedi which is interpreted by writer via Celtic *Wendo = white

    De administrando imperio says Serbs come from land they call Boiki (Bohemia) which is also where they have originally dwellt...
    this is true, because Serdi are Celtic people that origin from Boii that is from Bohemia....


    Illyrians are Celtic...that is clear from Greek myths that says how Illyrius, Celtus and Galas are brothers....
    http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Illyrius
    they are more I2a-Din in north and more R1b in south...in south there is also some remain of original Serians/Aryans with J2 and R1a...
    these Celtic people cover large range of Illyria

    language of Illyrians is lost as they live on sea coasts and areas that are covered with Roman settlements....they are completely romanised...this happens as in France also because their language was not too far from italic languages....

    Dardanians are E-V13 with some R1b..... they enter from Asia minor from area of Troy....from Dardanians that live in north Albania mountains unaffected by romanisation comes Albanian language and culture.....medieval name of Albanians in Serbia is Arbani / Arbanasi and in Greece Arvanites, and in Italy Arberi...this all stems from tribal name (D)Ardani...

    those Dardanians that didnot move to mountains of north Albania were romanised and later Slavicized... they are the largest source of E-V13 in modern Serbs...

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    How yes no 3 you are correct both of you that dislike my comment I am a nothing, a moron but I have a question how is dinaric/Balkan haplogroup I Celtic? I was under the impression only R1b was a significant Celtic marker

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    Quote Originally Posted by how yes no 3 View Post
    if they held large state in that area, than your hypothesis makes sense...

    I never heard that Carpathians were called Monte Basternae...
    but I know Carpathians were also Montes Serrorum (e.g. in writings of Ammianus Marcellinus) and Harvaða fjöllum (in Viking stories), and that east Carpatians were Montes Sarmatici, while west were Carpataes...and some think current name is derived from Carpi...
    Don't worry ...they are not germanic...

    Tacitus wrote in Germania chapter 46: 'Peucini, quos quidam Bastarnas vocant, sermone, cultu, sede ac domiciliis ut Germani agunt.' ('The Peucini, who are sometimes called Bastarnae, are like Germans in their language, manner of life, and mode of settlement and habitation.')

    They are like Germans, not actually Germans.

    clearly they are significant in history for 500Years, they where then overrun by sarmatians...but before this they helped the macedonians destroy the Dardanii ( albanians ) and settled 30000 people there....did they bring I2 ydna from north of the danube into the balkans?
    Father's Mtdna H95a1
    Grandfather Mtdna T2b24
    Great Grandfather Mtdna T1a1e
    GMother paternal side YDna R1b-S8172
    Mother's YDna R1a-Z282

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    Quote Originally Posted by adamo View Post
    How yes no 3 you are correct both of you that dislike my comment I am a nothing, a moron but I have a question how is dinaric/Balkan haplogroup I Celtic? I was under the impression only R1b was a significant Celtic marker
    northern balkan illyrians ( eastern austria, hungaria, Croatia, slovenia areas )where overrun by celts and became a mixed society, the celts also migrated down the danube until the reached the black sea.
    The celts even failed in their attempt to subdue the Greeks. all this was after Alexander the great period and before the roman wars against Hannibal

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    Quote Originally Posted by how yes no 3 View Post
    I forgot Moesians among Veneti

    my conclusion:
    ancient race of Venethi are: Dacians, Thracians, Moesians and few north Dalmatian tribes (Libourni and Iapodes)...they origin from ancient Venethi of Paphlagonia (south shores of Black sea in Asia minor) that are kicked out of Asia minor due to some war regarding timing probably due to participation in "sea people" conquest...

    Zeruiani whose state is so big that all Slavs come from it......is nothing but a reference to PIE people Serians/Zeruiani/Zoryans/Aryans... .they spread to Asia with conquest of "sea peoples.... as recorded by Egyptians this is not just sea conquest but also big settlement wave via land...
    term "sea people" comes from their worship of Dagon (fish god) and his wife Ser/Asura/Danu/Ishtar/Ishara...

    they were old eastern euroasian R1a with some J2... they cannot be called proto-Slavic as they are source of all PIE languages...
    http://r1a.org/3.htm#11


    I2a-Din is originally Celtic.... it enters into R1a Venethi Balto-Slavic complex with Serdi...it probably influences the language, so it departs from Balto-Slavic, giving explanation of Dalmil's chronicle that Czechs are born among Poles in Croatia land inside Serbian language....

    Liburnians and Iapodes are Venethi...they are same R1a people as Moesians, Thracians and Dacians....this explains increased R1a in north Dalmatia........

    Venethi people speak pre-Balto-Slavic....and Balts are among them. Note here that Aesti or Estonians are probably the thracian tribe Astae

    http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Thracian_tribes
    they move north in 1st century BC....and stay unaffected by language changes introduced with Serdi....


    I2a-Din Serdi give Carpi as child tribe in Dacian areas...
    Serdi and Carpi are origin of Serbs and Croats....

    Scordisci are romanized...which explains why in Slovakia I2a-Din origins from late Vlach settlers from near Danube area...

    Russian primary chronicle is right... early Slavs live in Danube area and some of them move north with spread of Roman empire...
    those are at first "free Dacians"...and later more general free Veneti... or Slobodni(free) Venti from this comes tribal name Slovenci

    which is by Roman writers denoted Sclaveni and adapted by modern Slavs as Sloveni...

    around core of free Venethi or SloVeneti are their border people Venedi and Anti (those tribal names are derived from PIE words meaning "border people")




    among Venedi are Serbs and Croats....De administrando imperio says they are called there "white" but they are in fact called Venedi which is interpreted by writer via Celtic *Wendo = white

    De administrando imperio says Serbs come from land they call Boiki (Bohemia) which is also where they have originally dwellt...
    this is true, because Serdi are Celtic people that origin from Boii that is from Bohemia....


    Illyrians are Celtic...that is clear from Greek myths that says how Illyrius, Celtus and Galas are brothers....
    http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Illyrius
    they are more I2a-Din in north and more R1b in south...in south there is also some remain of original Serians/Aryans with J2 and R1a...
    these Celtic people cover large range of Illyria

    language of Illyrians is lost as they live on sea coasts that are covered with Roman settlements....they are completely romanised

    Dardanians are E-V13 with some R1b..... they enter from Asia minor from area of Troy....from Dardanians that live in north Albania mountains unaffected by romanisation comes Albanian language and culture.....medieval name of Albanians in Serbia is Arbani / Arbanasi and in Greece Arvanites, and in Italy Arberi...this all stems from tribal name (D)Ardani...

    LOL, you make a joy in reading this fiction...I laugh so much , my stomach aches.

    Venetic language, latest July 2012 ....get up to date
    http://www.jolr.ru/files/%2883%29jlr...2833-46%29.pdf

    by a slav

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    But Austrians have 35% r1b Hungarians 20% Slovenians 20% Croatians even less 10-15%, they are not "Germanic" just the first three have minor Germanic influences the most being Austria...Croatia the least

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    Quote Originally Posted by adamo View Post
    But Austrians have 35% r1b Hungarians 20% Slovenians 20% Croatians even less 10-15%, they are not "Germanic" just the first three have minor Germanic influences the most being Austria...Croatia the least
    austrians are bavarians, there was no austrians before 1000AD ....they speak a austro-bavarian dialect.
    Bavarians are not true germanics, they became germanic...AFTER the roman empire collapsed, there was no germanic people south of the danube river , which is bavaian lands, the people there where the vindelici and raeti people ...some say the creators of the celtic people

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    Weren't the raetians the most northerly distribution of Etruscans into the Swiss mountains from Etruria? How could they have created the Celtic people?

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    Quote Originally Posted by adamo View Post
    Weren't the raetians the most northerly distribution of Etruscans into the Swiss mountains from Etruria? How could they have created the Celtic people?
    this was old concept...only one etruscan alphabet was found in belluno.
    the reasoning is that there is a town near verona called cologna veneta, where the etruscans, raeti and ligures ( eugenai tribe ) use for exchanging trade...the eugenai here absorbed by the veneti , but the town propospered, after the celtic invasion of lombardia, the etruscan where pushed further south and their trade with the north perished.
    The Raeti have in magority G2a of the north caucasus type and not the G2a of the greek Anatolian, etruscan type.

    some info from the linguistic thread...you could find something there
    Rhaeto-Cisalpine

    some links to Rhaeto-Cisalpine languages, stretching from the Julian Alps to Barcelona.

    http://www.squidoo.com/padaneis

    http://www.romaniaminor.net/ianua/Ianua07/03.pdf

    http://www.romaniaminor.net/ianua/Ianua08/07.pdf

    http://www.romaniaminor.net/ianua/Ianua09/03.pdf

    parts 1, 2 and 3

    Enjoy , some history in it

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    Thank you very much you are like a god of information! : )

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    Quote Originally Posted by adamo View Post
    how is dinaric/Balkan haplogroup I Celtic? I was under the impression only R1b was a significant Celtic marker
    cultures are unaware of genetics...

    in Greek myths Illyrius was brother to Celtus and Galas... Galatians is used as second name for Celts....

    so, Illyrians and Scordisci and Serdi are all Celtic..
    reason why Illyrians were easily romanised is that celtic languages are close to italic...
    same happened in France....


    there are serious proposals that some of somewhat related not populous I2 clades were also Celtic/Gaelic...so, its not only R1b...

    e.g.
    http://www.eupedia.com/forum/threads...38-and-La-Tene

    also
    I-M284

    I-M284 has been found almost exclusively among the population of Great Britain, suggesting that the clade may have arisen in that island. I-M284 is comparatively rare in Ireland except in the north-east. In regard to north-east Ireland, the presence of this subclade "provides some tentative evidence of ancient flow with eastern areas that could support the idea that the La Tene cultural package was accompanied by some migration."[22] Where it is found in those of Irish descent with Gaelic surnames, this suggests an ancestor who arrived in Ireland from Celtic Britain.[22] Men with several Gaelic surnames such as McGuinness and McCartan bear this subclade, family groups that have a historically recorded 6th-century common ancestor, thus it is not the result of known recent gene flow between Britain and Ireland.[22] While subclades of I-M284 are atypical of Ireland they are relatively common in continental Europe.[22] The observed mutational divergence between men with this subclade suggests its foundation very approximately at 300 BC, thus dates and geography are circumstantially associated but not securely with Iron Age continental Europe.[22]
    https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Haplogroup_I-M438#I-L38

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    Well I mean.... Celtus and galas where probably brothers since Galatians where celts that migrated to turkey, I don't know exactly what subclade they had but they where celts from southern France. But Illyrians I do not think where predominantly R1b in any way they must have been high in dinaric I with less but some R1a, or just predominantly I-M423

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    1 members found this post helpful.
    Cultures are unaware of genetics but genetics determine population origins and there is to my knowledge no Dinaric I among high percentage Celtic populations such as Irish, French, English, just any way you look at it Dinaric I is just not really at all a Celtic marker.

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    And at what percentage is this I-M284 found across Britain or continental Europe?

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    Quote Originally Posted by adamo View Post
    Well I mean.... Celtus and galas where probably brothers since Galatians where celts that migrated to turkey, I don't know exactly what subclade they had but they where celts from southern France. But Illyrians I do not think where predominantly R1b in any way they must have been high in dinaric I with less but some R1a, or just predominantly I-M423
    yes, but that doesnot exclude them for being Celtic in culture....

    if 2 of 3 brothers are considered Celtic, what is 3rd brother?

    regarding your earlier post that Galicia in Ukraine is not related to Celts...

    this is Galicia



    consider map based on archeologic finds of Celts


    or look at you tube video that summarizes presence of Celts in Ukraine
    http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=T2X99a4YkpQ

    this is I2a hotspot in Ukraine...
    so I2a Din in Ukraine is probably Celtic related....

    Illyrians and Scordisci were Celtic I2a-Din in Balkans...

    Serbs come from Serdi that are originally Celtic but became thrachanized....

    as for Scirii, Skiroi is among little Venti, so they are not Germanic but Venethi in origin...

    regarding little Venti, I need to add two more mappings to tribes...
    "Circius or Thrascius, the north-north-west wind"
    NNW Thrascius is Trausi
    http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Trausi

    "Apeliotes, sometimes known to the Romans as Apeliotus, was the Greek deity of the southeast wind."

    SE wind Apeliotes -> Apuli
    http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Apuli

    Quote Originally Posted by zanipolo View Post
    LOL, you make a joy in reading this fiction...I laugh so much , my stomach aches.

    Venetic language, latest July 2012 ....get up to date
    http://www.jolr.ru/files/%2883%29jlr...2833-46%29.pdf

    by a slav
    Venetic is italic language influenced by their neighbours Venethi and developed in region settled by R1a Venethi...that's why it is called Venetic...
    it is not core settlement of Venethi race.... small tribal names and place names are always according to big tribal name not in their core areas but where their ethicity sets them apart from surrounding...








    for me case is closed....

    early Slavs were indeed of Venethi race...
    their name comes from free (slobodni) Venethi and Venethi is umbrella term for Thracians, Dacians, Moesians and north Dalmatia tribes....

    those are free Dacians, joined by free Thracians and other related people of Venethi race...

    as for Basternae or Peucini, they are Getho-Dacian people, hence part of Venethi complex
    their name might come from "Pecina" = cave

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    Quote Originally Posted by how yes no 3 View Post
    early Slavs were indeed of Venethi race...
    their name comes from free (slobodni) Venethi and Venethi is umbrella term for Thracians, Dacians, Moesians and north Dalmatia tribes...
    at last you are right
    sloveni = slo-venedi = "free (slobodni) Venethi"

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    Quote Originally Posted by adamo View Post
    Cultures are unaware of genetics but genetics determine population origins and there is to my knowledge no Dinaric I among high percentage Celtic populations such as Irish, French, English, just any way you look at it Dinaric I is just not really at all a Celtic marker.
    There is no point arguing, nobody takes them seriously besides themselves. Instead of manning-up and accepting their recent slavic origin, they try to hijack pieces of history from antiquity.

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    So to you venethi is early Slavs....but then you mention italic veneti , and that they are the same too but there's only 10% R1a in veneto province Italy, and even if its one of the highest R1a places of Italy most of it is from far later Slavic movements to neighbouring Slovenia....venethi is Slavs....and what of the Celtic Veneti In Brittany province, France, that are of no relation? You mention the Celtic "Galicia" of Ukraine....but what of the Celtic Galicians of northern Spain, that are of no relation? Levels of R1b in Ukraine are less than 5% of males. There is literally no Celtic going on in the Ukraine, even Hungary and Slovakia has at least 20% R1b as compared to UkraineUkraine

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    I believe your hypotheses are built upon lore and historical legends that simply do not hold up , upon close genetic inspection and analysis.....you claim similarities or links between cultures simply on grammatical links and false linguistic links, considering the languages in these areas with these similar names where as different as Slavic and italic....it must just be pure chance and not link the venethi and italic veneti and Ukraine and Spanish Galicians, plus the venetics you see on that minuscule coastal stretch in Illyria was italic R1b Italians set up there at low levels and total numbers, not a Slavic venethi people dominating modern day italian veneti province....

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    From neighbouring Slovenia , correction for first post sorry, wrong grammar, FROM Slovenia not TO SloveniaSlovenia

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    I do not believe venethi and modern Italy venetians have any link, at all.

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    Quote Originally Posted by adamo View Post
    So to you venethi is early Slavs....but then you mention italic veneti , and that they are the same too but there's only 10% R1a in veneto province Italy, and even if its one of the highest R1a places of Italy most of it is from far later Slavic movements to neighbouring Slovenia....venethi is Slavs....
    that's not what I meant...

    I do not claim that they were same as other Venethi...

    but that there was Venethi component that gave tribal name and that this component was more and more dilluted with orientation to italic people...

    keep in mind that venetic people (including Liburnians and Iapodes) were cut off from the rest of R1a Venethi complex either due to the expansion of Celtic people or because they have settled further from the rest...

    so they have oriented towards italic people.... and naturally this caused the language to get closer to italic languages and also genetically dilluting percentage of R1a...

    but very point that R1a is still elevated compared to other italic areas is indicator of R1a settlement there once upon a time....
    and supports my explanation of R1a Venethi complex...

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    But that R1a in veneto province arrived more recently from being on the border with Slovenia, not because a long time ago there was Slavs already in veneto province. Or else they would easily have spread to the rest of Italy at high percentages, the italian veneti where not at all Slavs.

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    Quote Originally Posted by adamo View Post
    But that R1a in veneto province arrived more recently from being on the border with Slovenia, not because a long time ago there was Slavs already in veneto province. Or else they would easily have spread to the rest of Italy at high percentages, the italian veneti where not at all Slavs.
    that's your assumption...
    look at map of R1a above and tell me:
    did R1a in France arrive with historic Slavs?

    now look at spread gradients in line from France to Italy...
    no historic Slavs were that much west except in Slovenia....
    so if you are right, than north from borders with Slovenia spread should suddenly make a turn to east....but it doesnot...

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    2.5% of French men are Slavs........ What do the French have to do with this there is literally no R1a in France loll even the 5% on the map is a slight over exaggeration, more like 3-4% in the highest hotspots of France, R1a is simply not found past eastern Germany where it is like 15-20% , Czechs like 35-40%, Austrians like 30%, Slovenians 40%....other than 25% in Norway, Sweden and Iceland like 20% due to Viking colonization of this island from Norwegians and swedes that brought over some I1a, R1b and R1a ( even Sweden has more like 20% R1a , Norway I would say 25 ish) France and Italy are WAY off the map for R1a with both countries demonstrating frequencies of LESS than5%! Same for Spain so I doubt there is a link between your Spanish and Ukraine Galicians, considering R1b is terribly low in UkraineUkraine

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