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Thread: Serbs and Croats origin from Germanic Scirii and Hirri?

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    Serbs and Croats origin from Germanic Scirii and Hirri?

    1) Pliny the Elder - Historia Naturalis

    Scirii and Hirri live next to Venedi and Sarmatians... in fact, there is a note that Parisot believes that they are tribes of Slavic Venedi

    "This gulf, which has the name of the 'Codanian,' is filled with islands; the most famous among which is Scandinavia...
    it is generally supposed that the island of Eningia20 is of not less magnitude.
    Some writers state that these regions,as far as the river Vistula, are inhabited by the Sarmati, theVenedi21, the Sciri, and the Hirri22, and that there is a gulf there known by the name of Cylipenus23, at the mouth of which is the island of Latris, after which comes another gulf, that of Lagnus,which borders on the Cimbri.


    20 By Eningia Hardouin thinks that thecountry of modern Finland is meant.

    21 Parisot is of opinion that theVenedi, also called Vinidæ and Vindili, were of Sclavish origin,and situate on the shores of the Baltic. He remarks that this people,in the fifth century, founded in Pomerania, when quitted by the Goths, a kingdom, the chiefs of which styled themselves the Konjucsof Vinland. Their name is also to be found in Venden, a Russian town in the government of Riga, in Windenburg in Courland, and in Wendenin the circle of the Grand Duchy of Mecklenburg Schwerin.

    22 Parisot remarks that these two peoples were probably only tribes of the Venedi."

    http://www.perseus.tufts.edu/hopper/...ighlight=sciri



    it is suggested that Scirii and Hirri are tribes of Sclavish Venedi




    2) De Administrando imperio - the only historic source talking about settling of Serbs and Croats on Balkan


    http://books.google.nl/books?id=3al1...Bw&redir_esc=y


    "The Serbs are descended from the unbaptized Serbs, also called 'white', who live beyond Turkeyin a place called by them Boiki, where their neighbour is Francia, as is also Great Croatia, the unbaptized, also called 'white': in this place, then, these Serbs also originally dwelt. "


    note in time of writing "Turkey"is land of Turkic Avars - Hungary of modern days
    Boiki is Bohemia, land of Boii


    both Serbs and Croats were called "white"...
    celtic *windo = white

    point is they were called "Venedi" and writer used its Celtic meaning being "white"... those Serbs and Croats were called Venedi as they were part of Venedi tribes....with respect to 1) where notable tribes of Sclavisch Venedi are Scirii and Hirri, I think that Serbs and Croats might have been known in their early history as Scirii and Hirri


    in fact just north of Boiki is east Germany area where even today small Slavic ethnic minority cariesname of Lusatians/Sorbs/Wends...
    http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Sorbs

    3) genetic argument

    Scirii and Hirri are also believed to have been east Germanic tribes... this may be about their origin ....note that Serbs and Croats are not R1a dominant like other Slavic people but I2a dominant... while Germanic people are characterized by related I1 and I2b clades

    in fact I2a-Dinaric South is very typical of Serbs and to some extent Croats...it is very young clade which allows us to relate it to historic movements of tribes...
    if we look map of I2a-Dinaric south
    http://www.familytreedna.com/public/...x?section=ymap



    besides Serb settled areas we can notice:
    a) island in Bohemia or Boiki
    we know that Serbs came from there
    but we also know they came to therefrom somewhere more to the east....
    b) island in south Poland extending to central Ukraine (Galicia) – lower Vistula
    c) island in north east Poland(Baltic) – upper Vistula
    d) two isolated spots on north shoresof Asia minor
    e) set of isolated spots in Germany –from Zurich to Hamburg

    now let us look at movements of Scirii



    • originated somewhere in Germany (perhaps Bavaria – Munich to Zurich area and moved to north as trend marked as e) suggests... note that De Administrando imperio mentions that Serbs also originally dwellt in Bohemia...
    • lived in Baltic area in upper Vistula from 300 BC to 150 AD
      http://ethnohistory.verbix.com/Sciri/#locref7
      this is exactly I2a-Din south area marked with c) above
    • located in Galicia (lower Vistula) from 150 AD till 409 AD, which exactly matches the island of I2a-Dinaric marked as b) above
      http://ethnohistory.verbix.com/Sciri/#locref7
    • captured Scirii were settled by Byzantium on sea coasts of Asia minor (Bythinia), where whole settlements of them existed
      http://books.google.nl/books?id=MSPt...rmanic&f=false
      this relates to isolated spots on coasts of Asia minor marked above as d)...
    • last record of Scirii is that they were settled in east Slovakia where they are recorded to live from 409AD to 450 AD... now with arrival of Avars all tribes moved a bit away from Avars...for Scirii this must have meant moving to west which clearly brings them to Bohemia
      http://ethnohistory.verbix.com/Sciri/#locref7



    '

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    A little bit OT but why do you group Serbs and Croats together, from what i've seen they have a different distribution of Haplogroups, not that different but still noticeabe nonetheless?

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    I see How yes no has returned,
    nice to have you back,
    I missed you nomatter the 'old or odd' theories that i have read,
    ΟΘΕΝ ΑΙΔΩΣ OY EINAI
    ΑΤΗ ΛΑΜΒΑΝΕΙΝ ΑΥΤΟΙΣ
    ΥΒΡΙΣ ΓΕΝΝΑΤΑΙ
    ΝΕΜΕΣΙΣ ΚΑΙ ΤΙΣΗ ΑΚΟΛΟΥΘΟΥΣΙ ΔΕ

    When there is no shame
    Divine blindness conquers them
    Hybris (abuse, opprombium) is born
    Nemesis and punishment follows.

    Εχε υπομονη Ηρωα
    Η τιμωρια δεν αργει.

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    Quote Originally Posted by Eldritch View Post
    A little bit OT but why do you group Serbs and Croats together, from what i've seen they have a different distribution of Haplogroups, not that different but still noticeabe nonetheless?
    data puts them together not me....

    Scirii and Hirri are mentioned related as east germanic tribes and also as related Slavic Wendish tribes (see above)
    btw. i suspect Hirri are same people as Heruli...Heruli are paired with Scirii in the same way as Hirri earlier in the history... and one of the last known big settlements of Heruli is Slovakia in 451-508 AD from where Croats one century later emerge... note that arrival to Slovakia is 451 AD while Scirii are last mentioned in Slovakia in 450 AD ...these were times in which Attila the Hun was living his last years (he died in 453 AD) plundering central Europe....logically Scirii moved further from Hun madness to west to Bohemia....
    century after Scirii and Heruli settle Bohemia and Slovakia we see from these places Slavic Serbs (Srbi) and Croats (Hrvati) appear...

    Serbs and Croats are recorded to move to Balkan from Wendish areas, in same time, from adjacent teritories to adjascent teritories, and with note that they were both called "white" which I relate to Celtic "Wendo" in old teritories...

    today Serbs and Croats speak practically same language...

    and genetic differences are not that big....



    I1 | I2*+I2a | I2b | R1a | R1b | G | J2 | J* + J1 | E1b1b | T | Q | N | H | L
    Bosnia* 2,5 | 50 | 0.5 | 13.5 | 4 | 2 | 6 | 1 | 14.5 | 2.5 | 0 | 0 | |
    Croatia* 5.5 | 37 | 1 | 24 | 8.5 | 2.5 | 6 | 1 | 10 | 0.5 | 1 | 0.5 | |
    Serbia* 6.5 | 34.5 | 0.5 | 15 | 7 | 1.5 | 6.5 | 0.5 | 20.5 | 3 | 1 | 2 | |
    Croatia** 5.8 | 37.7 | <1 | 22.1 | 7.9 | 2.7 | ~6 | 1 | 10.6 | <1 | <1 | <1 | 1.8 | <1
    Serbia** 7.8 | 38.5 | 1.7 | 14.5 | 4.5 | 2.2 | 5 | 0.6 | 17.3 | 0 | 1.7 | 3.3 | 2.2 | 0.6

    Bosnia* - Maciamo's table
    Serbia* Maciamo's data made by putting together data from several studies
    Serbia** (Mirabal et al, 2010) -only study for Serbia on moderately large number of samples (179) and only study not done by Croats... it doesnot show any haplogroup K (it seems interpreted partly as T by Maciamo) as previous studies of Croatian scientists show for Serbs ....


    Croatia** is official data from Croatian sources
    http://www.draganprimorac.com/wp-con...ports-2012.pdf
    it includes all so far collected samples


    Croatia* is from Maciamo's table and it shows slightly different values.
    My guess is that he was looking the data from the source above as completely new data, so he was probably
    recalculating by adding, while old samples are already included in the data from Croatian source above...




    in any case difference between Croats and Serbs seems to be more or less:
    10% E1b1b more for Serbs
    10% R1a more for Croats

    E1b1b in Serbs is higher as it is dominant in the previous substratum in area of Serbia (Dardanians and Thracians)
    R1a in Croats could be from previous people (Panonians were proto-Slavic in my opinion) but also about higher original Slavic component, and also because Hirri/Heruli were probably originally R1a people as I2a-Din is not found in Scandinavia.....

    perhaps you think that Croats have more haplogroup I than Serbs...as you can see in average percentages of haplogroup I for Croatia and Serbia are roughly the same....

    truth is that Croats from Herzegovina and south Croatia according to Croat studies do have very high I2a dinaric
    but according to "De Administrando imperio" these areas are settled by people called Narentanes who are unbaptized Serbs....

    from http://books.google.nl/books?id=3al1...AQ&redir_esc=y

    "36. of Pagani also called Arentani, and the country they now dwell in" page 165
    "These same Pagani are descended from unbaptized Serbs....This country also was enslaved by Avars and made desolate......."Pagani" are so called because they didnot accept christianity when all the Serbs were baptized....."

    220px-Pagania.png

    Pagania/(N)arentania is the part of Croatia (and Bosnia & Herzegovina) that is by far most dominant in I2a Dinaric, which is not so much the case for other parts of Croatia, especially for north one...


    Quote Originally Posted by Yetos View Post
    I see How yes no has returned,
    nice to have you back,
    I missed you nomatter the 'old or odd' theories that i have read,
    thank you...
    my "odd" theories still make sense to me...
    its difficult to explain/introduce them properly...

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    Quote Originally Posted by how yes no 3 View Post
    data puts them together not me....

    Scirii and Hirri are mentioned related as east germanic tribes and also as related Slavic Wendish tribes (see above)
    btw. i suspect Hirri are same people as Heruli...Heruli are paired with Scirii in the same way as Hirri earlier in the history... and last known position of Heruli is east Slovakia from where Croats later emerge...

    Serbs and Croats are recorded to move to Balkan from Wendish areas, in same time, from adjacent teritories to adjascent teritories, and with note that they were both called "white" which I relate to Celtic "Wendo" in old teritories...

    today Serbs and Croats speak practically same language...

    and genetic differences are not that big....



    I1 | I2*+I2a | I2b | R1a | R1b | G | J2 | J* + J1 | E1b1b | T | Q | N | H | L
    Bosnia* 2,5 | 50 | 0.5 | 13.5 | 4 | 2 | 6 | 1 | 14.5 | 2.5 | 0 | 0 | |
    Croatia* 5.5 | 37 | 1 | 24 | 8.5 | 2.5 | 6 | 1 | 10 | 0.5 | 1 | 0.5 | |
    Serbia* 6.5 | 34.5 | 0.5 | 15 | 7 | 1.5 | 6.5 | 0.5 | 20.5 | 3 | 1 | 2 | |
    Croatia** 5.8 | 37.7 | <1 | 22.1 | 7.9 | 2.7 | ~6 | 1 | 10.6 | <1 | <1 | <1 | 1.8 | <1
    Serbia** 7.8 | 38.5 | 1.7 | 14.5 | 4.5 | 2.2 | 5 | 0.6 | 17.3 | 0 | 1.7 | 3.3 | 2.2 | 0.6

    Bosnia* - Maciamo's table
    Serbia* Maciamo's data made by putting together data from several studies
    Serbia** (Mirabal et al, 2010) -only study for Serbia on moderately large number of samples (179) and only study not done by Croats... it doesnot show any haplogroup K (it seems interpreted partly as T by Maciamo) as previous studies of Croatian scientists show for Serbs ....


    Croatia** is official data from Croatian sources
    http://www.draganprimorac.com/wp-con...ports-2012.pdf
    it includes all so far collected samples


    Croatia* is from Maciamo's table and it shows slightly different values.
    My guess is that he was looking the data from the source above as completely new data, so he was probably
    recalculating by adding, while old samples are already included in the data from Croatian source above...




    in any case difference between Croats and Serbs seems to be more or less:
    10% E1b1b more for Serbs
    10% R1a more for Croats

    E1b1b in Serbs is higher as it is dominant in the previous substratum in area of Serbia (Dardanians and Thracians)
    R1a in Croats could be from previous people (Panonians were proto-Slavic in my opinion) but also about higher original Slavic component, and also because Hirri/Heruli were probably originally R1a people as I2a-Din is not found in Scandinavia.....

    perhaps you think that Croats have more haplogroup I than Serbs...as you can see in average percentages of haplogroup I for Croatia and Serbia are roughly the same....

    truth is that Croats from Herzegovina and south Croatia according to Croat studies do have very high I2a dinaric
    but according to "De Administrando imperio" these areas are settled by people called Narentanes who are unbaptized Serbs....

    from http://books.google.nl/books?id=3al1...AQ&redir_esc=y

    "36. of Pagani also called Arentani, and the country they now dwell in" page 165
    "These same Pagani are descended from unbaptized Serbs....This country also was enslaved by Avars and made desolate......."Pagani" are so called because they didnot accept christianity when all the Serbs were baptized....."

    220px-Pagania.png

    Pagania/(N)arentania is the part of Croatia (and Bosnia & Herzegovina) that is by far most dominant in I2a Dinaric, which is not so much the case for other parts of Croatia, especially for north one...




    thank you...
    my "odd" theories still make sense to me...
    its difficult to explain/introduce them properly...

    hi

    This Hirri and Scrii has been explained already. Apart from the Sarmatians you mentioned all the others are baltic tribes and peoples.

    Heruli were the forefathers of modern Samogitians. In prehistoric times they were called
    "Hirri" or "Giriai", which means "Forest Dwellers" (the Prusso-Lithuanic word "giria" means "forest"). The earliest record about the "Hirri" we find in the writings of Plinius. Plinius stated that the territory extending from the Vistula river, as far as Eningia (probably he meant Feningia = Finland), is inhabited by the following nations: the Vends (the inhabitants along the shore of Windau river), the Scirri (Courlanders) and the Hirri. ---- "Nec minor opinione Eningia. Quidam haec habitari ad Vistulam a Sarmatis, Venedis, Sciris, Hirris, tradunt". --
    --- Plinius, IV. 27. Later,

    the Hirri were known as Hirruli or Heruli. Most of the scholars agree that in ancient times they
    lived near the Baltic Sea.

    Hirri history is, they left the samogitia shores , settled in southern Sweden, then moved to Pomerania..etc etc

    The Scirri are courlands who resided north of the hirri in samogitia and relocated to pomerania, then we also have a third people to consider ...the lemovii

    on the Dubysa river there is a town named Eiriogala, which in ancient times was called Geriogala , and this town was the most ancient capital of Samogitia. Near Eiriogala there is another town called Girukalnis, which means "The Hill of the Hirri". Also there is a village called Vad-giris, which means "The Seat of the Chief of the Hirri"

    The Herulian language is very similar to the Samogitian dialect; it also resembles the Courish dialect. This fact was revealed to us by an important document namely the "Lord's Prayer" which was written in the language of Heruli. Huppel, the well known scholar published this Herulian "Lord's Prayer" which he found amongst the letters of Pritzbuer, the Pastor of Marienburg, where it was stated that a certain priest by the name of Frank was the author of Mecklemburg's Chronicles of the Fifth Century, and in those Chronicles he wrote down the "Lord's Prayer" in the native (Herulian) tongue. ---- Vide: Took, Histoire de Russie trad. de l'Angla. p. M. S. Paris 1801, T. H, p. 259-260, Another chronicler, named Wolffgang Lazius, also published the Herulian "Lord's Prayer" in "De gentium migrationibus, Libri XII, Basileae, A.D. 1557". p. 789. Here he states that even in the Sixteenth Century some inhabitants around Mecklemburg still spoke that language. Lazius was the official chronicler of Ferdinand, the king of The Holy Roman Empire, and he was a man
    of intelligence, therefore historians have confidence in him. Herulian "Lord's Prayer".
    1. HERULIAN: ---TABES MUS, KAS TU ES EKSZAN

    2. Samogitian: ---Teivs mus, kors tu es's auksta

    3. Lithuanian: ---Teve musu, kurs tu esi aukstai

    4. English:---Father our who art high


    read link below, maps have english legend and bottom of link is english.......it states the people mentioned are baltic peopl who had flat grave burial systems..........then buy the rest of the English version
    http://www.academia.edu/1832311/_._....010_p._123-134
    Father's Mtdna H95a1
    Grandfather Mtdna T2b24
    Great Grandfather Mtdna T1a1e
    GMother paternal side YDna R1b-S8172
    Mother's YDna R1a-Z282

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    Quote Originally Posted by Yetos View Post
    I see How yes no has returned,
    nice to have you back,
    I missed you nomatter the 'old or odd' theories that i have read,

    The main problem with yes and no is that he does not want to accept that the serbians are not "pure Slavic" people , but hates the thought they became Slavic by language. He keeps hiding the fact that even the Slavic nobility documents from 1000 AD to the present has association with the Thracian triballi people. They still use the Triballi boar in Serbian rights today.
    its a pity for one to be too nationalistic and be present in a forum like this.

    In conclusion, all genetic scholars basically conclude that the slavs began around the south east corner of Poland and the north east corner of Moldovia

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    Quote Originally Posted by zanipolo View Post
    The main problem with yes and no is that he does not want to accept that the serbians are not "pure Slavic" people , but hates the thought they became Slavic by language.
    I don't hate the thought...there are reasons I believe that PIE language transfer went other way around from Serbs to other Slavic people....

    e.g. Dalmil's chronicle - key ancient source of Czechs about their history

    http://web.archive.org/web/200708040...ra/dalimil.htm


    "V srbskem jazyku jest zeme, // in serbian language there is country
    jiez Charvatci jest jme. // whose name is Croatia
    V tej zemi biese lech, // in that country there was Lech (Lechs = Poles)
    jemuz jme biese Cech. " //whose name was Czech

    so, the language is Serbian, in one part of area of that language there is Croatia as a state and in it are Poles and among them forefather of Czech people....

    I will here remind you of Bavarian geographer saying that state of Zeruiani is so big that all Slavs come from it

    and on statement of Seneca that Serians live along Danube, also rule over scattered Scytians in Europe, live in Asian Sarmatia unguarded from Sarmatians, and also in Asia...
    Sclaveni = Sloveni
    Scordisci = Serdi+isci
    Scirii/Scirians = Serians = Zeruiani
    Serians along Danube map to Scordisci as Russian primary chronicle states that prior to Roman empire expansion some south Slavs and explicitly Serbs lived in area of Danube on locations from Hungary to Bulgaria.....
    Serians rulling over scattered Scythinas may be Scirii
    Serians living among Sarmatians are Siraces (also known as Serboi), who were later turkicized becomming Sabirs..
    remaints of Serians from area of Seres in Asia north of Tibet who were known for making silk, can still be identified by customs and names...


    Quote Originally Posted by zanipolo View Post
    He keeps hiding the fact that even the Slavic nobility documents from 1000 AD to the present has association with the Thracian triballi people. They still use the Triballi boar in Serbian rights today.
    I am not hiding anything... as far as I know there are no Slavic nobility documents from year 1000 AD
    there is no link of Serbs to Triballi except in some Byzantine history sources where the usage of names such as Triballi and Moesians for Serbs seems to be pejorative and based only on living in the same location.... i remember reading that Byzantine historians did misuse names of other nations in same way....

    while it is possible that Serbs origin from Thracians, I do not think its likely

    because history records their settlement from Bohemia and escape routes from Thrace would go to Black sea or to Greece but not to Bohemia...

    and because genetic data points in same direction... based on described pattern of I2a Dinaric south I accept arrival from Bohemia and to Bohemia from south Poland and to south Poland from northeast Poland.... point of this thread is that this seems to be the root of Scirii, who are said together with Hirri to be part of Slavic Wends....which agrees with account in De Administrando Imperio about both Serbs and Croats carrying name "white" (*Wendo) and comming to Balkan from newly established Wendish areas.....

    of course part of modern Serbs origin from previous settlers such as Scordisci, Thracians, Dardanians.... but we are speaking hear about origin based on ethnic group that carries its identity not on ethnic groups that are assimilated...

    Quote Originally Posted by zanipolo View Post
    its a pity for one to be too nationalistic and be present in a forum like this.
    thank you for wishing me welcome back in your way...
    :)

    its a pity your posts are typically full of statements (opinions and judgements and "historical" data) that do not have sound basis in facts...

    I never was nationalistic...
    nationalistic = hating other people based on their nationatility

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    Quote Originally Posted by how yes no 3 View Post
    I don't hate the thought...there are reasons I believe that PIE language transfer went other way around from Serbs to other Slavic people....

    e.g. Dalmil's chronicle - key ancient source of Czechs about their history

    http://web.archive.org/web/200708040...ra/dalimil.htm


    "V srbskem jazyku jest zeme, // in serbian language there is country
    jiez Charvatci jest jme. // whose name is Croatia
    V tej zemi biese lech, // in that country there was Lech (Lechs = Poles)
    jemuz jme biese Cech. " //whose name was Czech

    so, the language is Serbian, in one part of area of that language there is Croatia as a state and in it are Poles and among them forefather of Czech people....

    I will here remind you of Bavarian geographer saying that state of Zeruiani is so big that all Slavs come from it

    and on statement of Seneca that Serians live along Danube, also rule over scattered Scytians in Europe, live in Asian Sarmatia unguarded from Sarmatians, and also in Asia...
    Sclaveni = Sloveni
    Scordisci = Serdi+isci
    Scirii/Scirians = Serians = Zeruiani
    Serians along Danube map to Scordisci as Russian primary chronicle states that prior to Roman empire expansion some south Slavs and explicitly Serbs lived in area of Danube on locations from Hungary to Bulgaria.....
    Serians rulling over scattered Scythinas may be Scirii
    Serians living among Sarmatians are Siraces (also known as Serboi), who were later turkicized becomming Sabirs..
    remaints of Serians from area of Seres in Asia north of Tibet who were known for making silk, can still be identified by customs and names...



    I am not hiding anything... as far as I know there are no Slavic nobility documents from year 1000 AD
    there is no link of Serbs to Triballi except in some Byzantine history sources where the usage of names such as Triballi and Moesians for Serbs seems to be pejorative and based only on living in the same location.... i remember reading that Byzantine historians did misuse names of other nations in same way....

    while it is possible that Serbs origin from Thracians, I do not think its likely

    because history records their settlement from Bohemia and escape routes from Thrace would go to Black sea or to Greece but not to Bohemia...

    and because genetic data points in same direction... based on described pattern of I2a Dinaric south I accept arrival from Bohemia and to Bohemia from south Poland and to south Poland from northeast Poland.... point of this thread is that this seems to be the root of Scirii, who are said together with Hirri to be part of Slavic Wends....which agrees with account in De Administrando Imperio about both Serbs and Croats carrying name "white" (*Wendo) and comming to Balkan from newly established Wendish areas.....

    of course part of modern Serbs origin from previous settlers such as Scordisci, Thracians, Dardanians.... but we are speaking hear about origin based on ethnic group that carries its identity not on ethnic groups that are assimilated...


    thank you for wishing me welcome back in your way...
    :)

    its a pity your posts are typically full of statements (opinions and judgements and "historical" data) that do not have sound basis in facts...

    I never was nationalistic...
    nationalistic = hating other people based on their nationatility
    Read my post again...I said hi

    question - Why is it that the slavic people want to obliterate all baltic people history

    we know the Baltic people where sailing around the Baltic sea 1000 years before the slavs even emerged.
    I ask this on other forums and the slavs response is a giggle ....never a denial

    Anyway the ancient tests for dna in Poland, Lithuania and Germany is being done and slowly revealing the truth...and that truth is that the slavs have minor ethnic areas of creation and not the lies of associating language to ethnics as they think.

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    Quote Originally Posted by zanipolo View Post
    Read my post again...I said hi

    question - Why is it that the slavic people want to obliterate all baltic people history

    we know the Baltic people where sailing around the Baltic sea 1000 years before the slavs even emerged.
    I ask this on other forums and the slavs response is a giggle ....never a denial
    Scirii are not really in Baltic countries area on any of the maps that I have seen, but in what would today be northeast Poland... and in fact exactly where island of I2a Dinaric south is in north
    ( http://www.familytreedna.com/public/...x?section=ymap )

    e.g. look at Euratlas http://www.euratlas.net/history/euro...tity_3837.html
    or ethnohistory http://ethnohistory.verbix.com/Sciri/#locref7 (press + sign in front of descriptions in table in order to see the position on map)



    Quote Originally Posted by zanipolo View Post
    Anyway the ancient tests for dna in Poland, Lithuania and Germany is being done and slowly revealing the truth...and that truth is that the slavs have minor ethnic areas of creation and not the lies of associating language to ethnics as they think.
    let me giggle on this one...
    did they reveal the truth?
    or they didnot but you know it nevertheless? :)

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    Quote Originally Posted by how yes no 3 View Post
    Scirii are not really in Baltic countries area on any of the maps that I have seen, but in what would today be northeast Poland... and in fact exactly where island of I2a Dinaric south is in north
    ( http://www.familytreedna.com/public/...x?section=ymap )

    e.g. look at Euratlas http://www.euratlas.net/history/euro...tity_3837.html
    or ethnohistory http://ethnohistory.verbix.com/Sciri/#locref7 (press + sign in front of descriptions in table in order to see the position on map)




    let me giggle on this one...
    did they reveal the truth?
    or they didnot but you know it nevertheless? :)
    from russian and polish sites



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    I2 haplogroups are not Germanic. I2a2 could come to Balkan peninsula with Ostrogoths, who were not a Germanic tribe, contrary to what German nazi used to say.

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    Quote Originally Posted by al-kochol View Post
    Ostrogoths, who were not a Germanic tribe, contrary to what German nazi used to say.
    Is this Slavic?
    http://languageserver.uni-graz.at/ls...d=000000004249
    (you do know what this is? since you are so well informed about Goths/Ostrogoths)

    Or are you accusing the Ostrogoths and Theoderich to be early middle-age visionaries of the NSDAP?

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    Quote Originally Posted by Nobody1 View Post
    Is this Slavic?
    http://languageserver.uni-graz.at/ls...d=000000004249
    (you do know what this is? since you are so well informed about Goths/Ostrogoths)

    Or are you accusing the Ostrogoths and Theoderich to be early middle-age visionaries of the NSDAP?
    This is Gothic, the language of "Swedish" Goths. Ostrogoths were not Goths. They spoke different language. Use your logic, not Drang Nach Osten propaganda.

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    Quote Originally Posted by al-kochol View Post
    This is Gothic, the language of "Swedish" Goths. Ostrogoths were not Goths. They spoke different language. Use your logic, not Drang Nach Osten propaganda.
    Are you a bit handicapped in reading? or are you absolutely clueless as to what i posted?
    This is Ostrogothic, 6th cen. AD Codex Argenteus [Ravenna, N. Italy] Vaterunser prayer.

    Encyclopaedia Britannica Vol.16
    The modern German resembles the Gothic Gospels more than the present Danish, Norwegian, or Swedish;

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    Ostrogoths could not speak Gothic language while inhabiting territory of today's Ukraine and Belarus simply because Gothic language would be totally useless there. If Ostrogoths were Goths, you would find today some I2 in Sweden.

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    Quote Originally Posted by al-kochol View Post
    Ostrogoths could not speak Gothic language while inhabiting territory of today's Ukraine and Belarus simply because Gothic language would be totally useless there.
    This is a trick question right? But what exactly is going through your head when you make statements like that?
    your name would be much funnier if it wouldnt reflect your delusional state of mind.

    Quote Originally Posted by al-kochol View Post
    If Ostrogoths were Goths, you would find today some I2 in Sweden.
    Yes, but only if one enters your realm of Genetic fantasy.

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    Quote Originally Posted by Nobody1 View Post
    This is a trick question right? But what exactly is going through your head when you make statements like that?
    your name would be much funnier if it wouldnt reflect your delusional state of mind.



    Yes, but only if one enters your realm of Genetic fantasy.
    Could you be more specific, if not scientific?

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    Quote Originally Posted by al-kochol View Post
    Could you be more specific, if not scientific?
    The honor is all yours, please be more specific about your Historic and Genetic reality.
    Or was your impressive account of the Ostrogoths already the most detailed?

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    Quote Originally Posted by Nobody1 View Post
    The honor is all yours, please be more specific about your Historic and Genetic reality.
    Or was your impressive account of the Ostrogoths already the most detailed?
    My account of the Ostrogoths is available to you too, in the internet, assuming that you speak more languages than one.

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    1 members found this post helpful.

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    Quote Originally Posted by zanipolo View Post
    Good link, zanipolo.

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    Quote Originally Posted by al-kochol View Post
    Ostrogoths could not speak Gothic language while inhabiting territory of today's Ukraine and Belarus simply because Gothic language would be totally useless there. If Ostrogoths were Goths, you would find today some I2 in Sweden.
    stop drinking so much :)

    I2-Din is only I2 of east Europe including Ukraine where Goths dwelled for a while...
    if Goths had I2a-Din, there would be some I2a-Din in areas of kingdoms of Visigoths and Ostrogoths... but there is none...

    conclusion:

    Visiigoths and Ostrogoths had no I2a-Din...


    Scirii are different case all together.....
    their germanic origin is questioned in number of historical accounts....there were speculations that they are Venedi, Sarmatians (or more precisely Alans from what I remember), even Turkic....

    from what I have seen their historical movements and settlements correspond to locations of I2a-din South....
    for me that is a good trace....

    considering them Germanic may also be due to criteria that early roman historians had when defining germanic - for them those who live in houses were Germanic, those who live like nomads are Sarmatian...in fact, exactly with Venedi there was dillema where to put them as they lived in houses but resembled Sarmatians otherwise.....or this can be about distant tribal origin...tribal origins were important in distant times...

    for me Scirii fit perfectly in the story about Zeruiani whose state is so big that all Slavs come from it...and Serians who rule over scattered Scythians...

    also Dalmil's chronicle account suggests that Slavic people have received the language from Serbs.... because it says first Czech is born among Poles in Croatia state that is part of Serbian language area....
    it doesnot say Poles or Croats who are Serbs, but that in Serbian language there is land Croatia in which also Poles live....

    so, in my opinion Serians (Scirians/Scirii) transfer their language to Scythians they rule over... and that is origin of Slavic languages and Slavic people.... as I show in thread "who are Slavs?" core and directions of early Slavic expansion seems to fairly well match expansion of I2a-dinaric (both north and south) and are not really traceable in R1a genetics....

    now if Croatia would be a name of state in a aprt of serbian language area.... this suggests that state could be established by non-slavic rulling elite - it can be e.g. about Germanic tribe of Heruli rulling over part of proto-Slavic people who have previously mixed with Scirii/Serians and adopted language of Serians/Scirii but are aware that they are not Serians... how did they call themselves? perhaps Venedi?

    in light of this, more R1a in modern Croats than in Serbs can have two origins: 1) more assimilation of people who are Serians by language and not by origin like e.g. Poles, 2) Heruli, considering proposed origin in south of Scandinavia, might be originally not I2a-Din but germanic R1a rulling ellite who have obtained I2a-Din by rulling over real Serians and Serians by language ... e.g. even today most I2a-Dinaric areas in Croatia are those whose people (no population replacement happened in south Croatia and west Herzegovina) that early history source De Administrando imperio records as Serbs......similar could have happened many times in past as it seems clear that two tribes have travelled in pair....

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    Germanic tribes existed before Slavic tribes! Ancient Germanic tribes = R1b + I1 + R1a. With all due respect but Slavic peoples don't have any (ancient) history at all. According to me, people in Eastern Europe started unifying with each other and started to share common region, culture and language with each other after I2a +R1a got mixed with each other. Slavic peoples = I2a + R1a. Germanic peoples R1b + I1 + R1a.

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    Quote Originally Posted by Goga View Post
    Germanic tribes existed before Slavic tribes! Ancient Germanic tribes = R1b + I1 + R1a. With all due respect but Slavic peoples don't have any (ancient) history at all. According to me, people in Eastern Europe started unifying with each other and started to share common region, culture and language with each other after I2a +R1a got mixed with each other. Slavic peoples = I2a + R1a. Germanic peoples R1b + I1 + R1a.
    What about I2b?

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    Quote Originally Posted by Eldritch View Post
    What about I2b?
    It's more 'northwest' than 'southeast' European right? According to me I2b coexisted together with I1. I2b is from West Germany, native to that region.

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