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Thread: Map of J2b and it's two major clades

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    1 out of 1 members found this post helpful.

    Map of J2b and it's two major clades



    FTDNA J2b project participants:
    J2b* - 7,2%
    J2b1 - 14,4%
    J2b2* - 78,4%

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    Very interesting, thanks BakodiP. I just wonder if M205 shows Bulgar or Turkic connection from north of Caspian Sea to Balkans?
    Be wary of people who tend to glorify the past, underestimate the present, and demonize the future.

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    Quote Originally Posted by LeBrok View Post
    Very interesting, thanks BakodiP. I just wonder if M205 shows Bulgar or Turkic connection from north of Caspian Sea to Balkans?
    I'm not sure about M205, but there some J2b people in the region these days. There are some Tatar J2b2, some Ashkenazi (maybe Khazar) J2b* and J2b2, and I know some J2b1 and J2b* from Armenia as well. So it could be that some steppe nomad who was J2b1 went to Bulgaria with the Bulgars or was himself a Bulgar, or Crimean Tatars could bring this haplogroup during the Ottoman rule.

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    M12 and M205 overlap in that area north of Caspian sea. Coincidentally the birthplace of IE languages is at the same area. Also the spread of IE languages fits the spread of M12. Also the linguistic differences between albanian and greek fit well with the M12-M205 dichotomy. So to make my point, I would not be surprised if the original IE colonizers were carrying some J2b.

    http://3.bp.blogspot.com/-GGt8kK2NYg...0/SLRD-map.jpg

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    Quote Originally Posted by kamani View Post
    M12 and M205 overlap in that area north of Caspian sea. Coincidentally the birthplace of IE languages is at the same area. Also the spread of IE languages fits the spread of M12. Also the linguistic differences between albanian and greek fit well with the M12-M205 dichotomy. So to make my point, I would not be surprised if the original IE colonizers were carrying some J2b.

    http://3.bp.blogspot.com/-GGt8kK2NYg...0/SLRD-map.jpg
    Do you know some studies about the J2b there? I'm Hungarian (back from 1593 surely my paternal line is Hungarian as well) and J2b* (M205-, M241-).1100 years ago the Hungarian tribes came from near the exact location (North Caspian Sea, Volga-Ural region) to Central Europe so it could be an explanation.

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    Quote Originally Posted by BakodiP View Post
    Do you know some studies about the J2b there? I'm Hungarian (back from 1593 surely my paternal line is Hungarian as well) and J2b* (M205-, M241-).1100 years ago the Hungarian tribes came from near the exact location (North Caspian Sea, Volga-Ural region) to Central Europe so it could be an explanation.
    I have seen very few studies on J2b, it's sort of forgotten/ignored. What I know about it is that Albania has one of the highest J2b percentages in the world (~16%). Its maps overlap well with the maps of E-v13. It was carried as far as england by roman soldiers from the balkans. There is a disputed idea that J2b got in india because of Alexander the Great army. If you can trace your lineage back to 1500-s, a possibility is they were christian refugees from the balkans, escaping the ottoman invasion (1400-s). They might have been albanian, serbian, or greek.

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    Quote Originally Posted by kamani View Post
    They might have been albanian, serbian, or greek.
    Wrong they might have been Bulgarian,Serbian or Vlach, Greek and Albanians do not go there, while we the Balkans Slavs do

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    In Bulgaria we do not mix with Crimean Tatars and they come only for a brief period between 1850-1878 ,then most of them left the rest become Turks, so it is either from Bulgar or one of the other tribes that make us,but not Tatars.

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    Quote Originally Posted by kamani View Post
    I have seen very few studies on J2b, it's sort of forgotten/ignored. What I know about it is that Albania has one of the highest J2b percentages in the world (~16%). Its maps overlap well with the maps of E-v13. It was carried as far as england by roman soldiers from the balkans. There is a disputed idea that J2b got in india because of Alexander the Great army. If you can trace your lineage back to 1500-s, a possibility is they were christian refugees from the balkans, escaping the ottoman invasion (1400-s). They might have been albanian, serbian, or greek.
    Interesting theory! ;) Although my family name sounds really Hungarian. On our family coat of arms we have a flag like Skanderbeg's (red with the black two-headed eagle), but I read that all of J2b in Albania are J2b2 and they have a very low variety of haplotypes. I have only one match with an Armenian person, who told me his ancestors were caviar merchants during the reign of Catherine the Great, they're from Russia and called Gubov which sounds pretty Russian to me. We have 12/10, 25/23, 37/33, 67/57 match and according to different estimates TMRCA is about 1000-1500 years.

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    Quote Originally Posted by Yaan View Post
    In Bulgaria we do not mix with Crimean Tatars and they come only for a brief period between 1850-1878 ,then most of them left the rest become Turks, so it is either from Bulgar or one of the other tribes that make us,but not Tatars.
    Wath about Tatars in Tatarstan Russia, who are descendents of Volga Bulgars?

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    Quote Originally Posted by BakodiP View Post
    Wath about Tatars in Tatarstan Russia, who are descendents of Volga Bulgars?
    But as Kamani already said, both, M12 and M205 are present in Tatarstan, and M12 occurs throughout Europe, which of course can not be from Bulgars. Why to assume than that M205 spread due to a different cause? Also M205 peaks in west Turkey and I'm not aware of any Bulgar settlements in Anatolia. The little M205 in Bulgaria seems to have swept from neighbouring Turkey rather than from Tatarstan.

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    Quote Originally Posted by ElHorsto View Post
    But as Kamani already said, both, M12 and M205 are present in Tatarstan, and M12 occurs throughout Europe, which of course can not be from Bulgars. Why to assume than that M205 spread due to a different cause? Also M205 peaks in west Turkey and I'm not aware of any Bulgar settlements in Anatolia. The little M205 in Bulgaria seems to have swept from neighbouring Turkey rather than from Tatarstan.
    We discussed the probabilty of one way of J2b getting to Bulgaria, based on the Kurgan hypothesis (like this haplogroup came from the Caspian steppe). I'm not saying it's a Bulgar only genetic marker since there is no haplogroup that belongs to only one nation! We just emphasized that maybe some nowaday Bulgarian J2b could came from that region, not all of Bulgarian J2b people are direct descendent of nomad Bulgars!

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    Quote Originally Posted by ElHorsto View Post
    But as Kamani already said, both, M12 and M205 are present in Tatarstan, and M12 occurs throughout Europe, which of course can not be from Bulgars. Why to assume than that M205 spread due to a different cause? Also M205 peaks in west Turkey and I'm not aware of any Bulgar settlements in Anatolia. The little M205 in Bulgaria seems to have swept from neighbouring Turkey rather than from Tatarstan.
    It is the other way around Turks recieved genes from Bulgarians , when Bulgarians were forcefully kidnapped for soldier or when forced to become Muslim, no Turks become Bulgarian. So watch ur language. Plus J2b is not common in Turks at all. Turks were R1a people with some C that mixed with Middle Eastern and European people.End of story.
    Bulgars went as far as Italy and M12 was one of their genes. So stop speaking about Turks, nation that exist since the 20th center and lets talk about the truth.

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    Crimean Tatar and Volga Tatars are really different and yes before mixing with N people the Volga Tatars were like the Bulgarians, before the Bulgarians mixed with E-V13 and I2a people. R1a,J2a and J2b are the genes of the Bulgars.

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    2 out of 2 members found this post helpful.
    Quote Originally Posted by Yaan View Post
    It is the other way around Turks recieved genes from Bulgarians , when Bulgarians were forcefully kidnapped for soldier or when forced to become Muslim, no Turks become Bulgarian. So watch ur language. Plus J2b is not common in Turks at all. Turks were R1a people with some C that mixed with Middle Eastern and European people.End of story.
    Bulgars went as far as Italy and M12 was one of their genes. So stop speaking about Turks, nation that exist since the 20th center and lets talk about the truth.
    Please be precise, I was talking about J2b-M205 only. And I did not say "from Turks" but "from Turkey". Would it please you more if I say from Anatolia instead from Turkey? J2b-M205 could be a marker of lydian greek settlement from antiquity, who knows. So relax, no Turks are flooding Bulgaria. Although there is a turkic minority in Bulgaria ... don't get a heart attack.

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    If you are speaking about J2b please mind the difference between J2b*-M12, J2b1-M205 and J2b2-M241. They are different just like R1a and R1b.

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    Quote Originally Posted by ElHorsto View Post
    Please be precise, I was talking about J2b-M205 only. And I did not say "from Turks" but "from Turkey". Would it please you more if I say from Anatolia instead from Turkey? J2b-M205 could be a marker of lydian greek settlement from antiquity, who knows. So relax, no Turks are flooding Bulgaria. Although there is a turkic minority in Bulgaria ... don't get a heart attack.
    Yes if u say Anatolia it is totally OK, Turkey is not and nobody cares about the Turk minority and we do not speak about them and they do not cary that gene, they are from the tests up to now mostly R1b,R1a and some E-V13,no wonder since they are mostly Bulgarians that become Turks(well not all of course)
    J2b1,M12 is really rare in Bulgaria 0.4,as for the typcial Balkan marker J2b2- M241 is is the single biggest type of J2 in Bulgaria -3.8, the second biggest being my own type J2a4h also know as M530 at 2.4 :)

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    J2b is not a marker from greek Lydian antiquity settlement. The Lydia's never went to Greece, they where Turks (J2a). J2a is not found in Greece. It's found in the Middle East ( Armenia, turkey, northwest Iran) only the greek island of Crete, and Italy. J2b symbolizes "standard" mainland/peninsula greek J2. It came a LONG time ago from Middle East, stayed a long time in Greece where it diversified and became characteristically Greco-Albanian and then spread to other minor parts of Balkans and Italy. It is Balkans J2,Greco-Albanian J2' not Anatolian J2 (J2a)

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    I'm referring to M12 by the way

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    Quote Originally Posted by adamo View Post
    J2b is not a marker from greek Lydian antiquity settlement. The Lydia's never went to Greece, they where Turks (J2a). J2a is not found in Greece. It's found in the Middle East ( Armenia, turkey, northwest Iran) only the greek island of Crete, and Italy. J2b symbolizes "standard" mainland/peninsula greek J2. It came a LONG time ago from Middle East, stayed a long time in Greece where it diversified and became characteristically Greco-Albanian and then spread to other minor parts of Balkans and Italy. It is Balkans J2,Greco-Albanian J2' not Anatolian J2 (J2a)
    Then why is it that there is now J2b* sample from Greece? Or at least I don't know any, and only one from the Balkan, from Bulgaria (family name: Mateev).

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    Quote Originally Posted by adamo View Post
    J2b is not a marker from greek Lydian antiquity settlement. The Lydia's never went to Greece, they where Turks (J2a). J2a is not found in Greece. It's found in the Middle East ( Armenia, turkey, northwest Iran) only the greek island of Crete, and Italy. J2b symbolizes "standard" mainland/peninsula greek J2. It came a LONG time ago from Middle East, stayed a long time in Greece where it diversified and became characteristically Greco-Albanian and then spread to other minor parts of Balkans and Italy. It is Balkans J2,Greco-Albanian J2' not Anatolian J2 (J2a)
    There is a lot of J2a in Greece, in all Balkan countries and Italy J2a is more than J2b. Check before ur speak. Also Turks have J2a now because of Bulgarians,Greeks, Armenians,Georgians etc.etc.
    Original Turks did not have J2a.

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    Greeks have from J2b2, J2b1 is found in small % in Balkan Slavs, Hungarians etc. J2b* is not that often and yes they Bulgarian guy Mateev from Veliko Tarnovo Central North

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    Yawn you say that "original Turks" did not have j2a as Cretans and Iranians do.. What exactly is "original" Turks and what did they have?

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    Quote Originally Posted by adamo View Post
    Yawn you say that "original Turks" did not have j2a as Cretans and Iranians do.. What exactly is "original" Turks and what did they have?
    Original Turks are the people that come to Europe and the Middle East in the 14th century they have R1b,R1a,N,L

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    But what about J1, J2' G.... Typical middle eastern genetic markers. Turks cluster genetically with many/most other middle eastern ethnic groups. Turks with haplogroup N like the Finns you suggest..... That seems invalid too me and I doubt the "original" Turks had significantly high levels of haplogroup L although I know haplogroups R1b and r1a can be found in certain middle eastern populations...

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