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Thread: Scandinavian origin of the Rurikid N1c1 lineage from Central Sweden

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    Quote Originally Posted by Ziober View Post
    Why Galicia? as the celtiberic Galicia... Someone knew the answer... It should be studied.

    https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Kingdo...%80%93Volhynia

    Why there are two Iberias. One is spain-portugal an the other the caucasus Iberia. Don't you feel the need to investigate? I did.
    I was musing some time ago about a connection between two Galicias. Perhaps there is some truth to it, if not just based on a fact that many trajectories of population movements went from East to West since bronze age.
    Be wary of people who tend to glorify the past, underestimate the present, and demonize the future.

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    Quote Originally Posted by LeBrok View Post
    I was musing some time ago about a connection between two Galicias. Perhaps there is some truth to it, if not just based on a fact that many trajectories of population movements went from East to West since bronze age.
    I am with you, Lebrok.

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    Quote Originally Posted by adamo View Post
    Haplogroup N males first arrived on the eastern Finnish border/parts of extreme west Russia, in the last 3000 years, R1b males have been in Europe longest (30,000) years, followed by the men of I (20,000) years. The N1c branch is among the youngest in Europe.
    Actually, R1b as a stone-age European lineage is no longer a widely held theory. I men (including I1 and I2) considerably predate R1b in Europe.

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    1 out of 2 members found this post helpful.
    @Adamo
    Haplogroup N males first arrived on the eastern Finnish border/parts of extreme west Russia, in the last 3000 years, R1b males have been in Europe longest (30,000) years, followed by the men of I (20,000) years. The N1c branch is among the youngest in Europe.

    Those were the days when yDNA origins were set on the basis of modern distributions and when ancient yDNA was not available and the haplotype trees and ages were far less clear than they are now. Now we have learnt that high frequencies are often in areas where a haplogroup is recent.

    At the moment, the oldest N1c which is probably ancestral to Finnic N1c has been found in Smolensk, Western Russia within Serteya culture, 2500 BC.

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    Quote Originally Posted by Kristiina View Post
    @Adamo
    Haplogroup N males first arrived on the eastern Finnish border/parts of extreme west Russia, in the last 3000 years, R1b males have been in Europe longest (30,000) years, followed by the men of I (20,000) years. The N1c branch is among the youngest in Europe.

    Those were the days when yDNA origins were set on the basis of modern distributions and when ancient yDNA was not available and the haplotype trees and ages were far less clear than they are now. Now we have learnt that high frequencies are often in areas where a haplogroup is recent.

    At the moment, the oldest N1c which is probably ancestral to Finnic N1c has been found in Smolensk, Western Russia within Serteya culture, 2500 BC.
    That's nonsense. Haplogroup R1b is only about 22,000 years old, so it could not have been in Europe 30,000 years ago. It appeared somewhere around the Caspian Sea and only arrived in Eastern Europe between 7,000 and 10,000 years ago, and in the rest of Europe between 6,000 and 3,000 years ago.

    There is ample evidence from the age of subclades and of Finnic languages that N1c1 arrived in Finland between 4,500 and 6,000 years ago, not 3,000 years ago.
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    Quote Originally Posted by Maciamo View Post
    There is ample evidence from the age of subclades and of Finnic languages that N1c1 arrived in Finland between 4,500 and 6,000 years ago, not 3,000 years ago.
    What kind of evidence?
    I do not necessarily disagree to this proposal, but what evidences (subclade or linguistic wise) do we actually have for it?

    If you change Finland to Europe (as in West of Urals), then I have no issues :)

    Baltic Finnic languages are believed to arise with (fake?) textile ceramics ~1000 bce (I might be slightly wrong with this number, must recheck) and only then spread to i.e. Finland (some other para-Uralic, para-Finnic or similar language speakers might have arived before, but direct linguistic ancestors of moder Finns most likely only AD).

    Edit: mainstream linguistic evidence actually settles the earliest possible date for proto-Uralic (the common ancestor of all survived Uralic languages) not later than proto-Indo-Iranian and located next to proto-Indo-Iranian based on PII loanwords in proto-Uralic. Which would be North of Sintashta ~2000 bce?

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    Quote Originally Posted by Kristiina View Post
    @Adamo
    Haplogroup N males first arrived on the eastern Finnish border/parts of extreme west Russia, in the last 3000 years, R1b males have been in Europe longest (30,000) years, followed by the men of I (20,000) years. The N1c branch is among the youngest in Europe.

    Those were the days when yDNA origins were set on the basis of modern distributions and when ancient yDNA was not available and the haplotype trees and ages were far less clear than they are now. Now we have learnt that high frequencies are often in areas where a haplogroup is recent.

    At the moment, the oldest N1c which is probably ancestral to Finnic N1c has been found in Smolensk, Western Russia within Serteya culture, 2500 BC.
    Good points. Consider R1b distributions. Ireland is 80% R1b, but nearly all of that R1b belongs to a few fairly recent Celtic and Germanic clades. Modern Turkey/Anatolia has more J2 than R1b, but the R1b that it does have is very diverse and very ancient. This is how we have concluded that R1b most likely spread east to west. During each part of the western movement, some clades dropped out due to men dying without sons or deciding not to migrate any further west.

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    Arvistro, if you insist in the theory that Baltic Finnic languages have arisen with textile ceramics 1000 bce, N1c-VL29 in Finland is Corded Ware and Indo-European, because N1c-VL29 is oldest around the Baltic Sea in the Corded Ware area, and only Z1936 is Uralic as it looks like having arisen in the forest area between Northern Volga and Karelia.

    The paper I referred to before (http://www.sarks.fi/fa/PDF/FA13_51.pdf) concludes that “Archaeological research over the past few decades has shown that the Net Ware culture (textile ceramics) in the territories to the north of the Volga was completely overlapped by and mixed with the Uralic Ananyino culture during the Early Iron Age. (…) A comparative analysis of the strata of ancient place names in Karelia suggests the conclusion that the earliest 'Volgic' layer of local names for bodies of water most probably corresponds to the Net Ware culture, while the Lapp (Sami) hydronyms correspond to the Ananyino stratum of the Iron Age and the Baltic-Finnish place names to the early medieval culture of the 10th and 11th centuries in southeastern Karelia (Kosmenko 1993).”

    As Finnish is very close to Estonian and Finnic languages (including Estonian and Finnish) are close to Mordvin language (spoken to the southeast of Estonia), and Saami language is further apart, it is also possible that Finnic languages developed from of the Corded Ware Culture and Saami languages developed from the Iron Age Net Ware culture.

    Ancient yDNA and autosomal data would make the picture much clearer.

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    1 out of 1 members found this post helpful.
    I got moderated again because I attached a link to a PDF document! In spite of this, I post my comment again twice although it creates kind of mess later on.

    Arvistro, if you insist in the theory that Baltic Finnic languages have arisen with textile ceramics 1000 bce, N1c-VL29 in Finland is Corded Ware and Indo-European, because N1c-VL29 is oldest around the Baltic Sea in the Corded Ware area, and only Z1936 is Uralic as it looks like having arisen in the forest area between Northern Volga and Karelia.

    The paper I referred to before (M.G. Kosmenko, The Culture of Bronze Age Net Ware in Karelia) concludes that “Archaeological research over the past few decades has shown that the Net Ware culture (textile ceramics) in the territories to the north of the Volga was completely overlapped by and mixed with the Uralic Ananyino culture during the Early Iron Age. (…) A comparative analysis of the strata of ancient place names in Karelia suggests the conclusion that the earliest 'Volgic' layer of local names for bodies of water most probably corresponds to the Net Ware culture, while the Lapp (Sami) hydronyms correspond to the Ananyino stratum of the Iron Age and the Baltic-Finnish place names to the early medieval culture of the 10th and 11th centuries in southeastern Karelia (Kosmenko 1993).”

    As Finnish is very close to Estonian and Finnic languages (including Estonian and Finnish) are close to Mordvin language (spoken to the southeast of Estonia), and Saami languages are further apart, it is also possible that Finnic languages developed from of the Corded Ware Culture and Saami languages developed from the Iron Age Net Ware culture.

    Ancient yDNA and autosomal data would make the picture much clearer.

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    Quote Originally Posted by Kristiina View Post
    N1c-VL29 in Finland is Corded Ware and Indo-European, because N1c-VL29 is oldest around the Baltic Sea in the Corded Ware area, and only Z1936 is Uralic as it looks like having arisen in the forest area between Northern Volga and Karelia.
    Our current amateurish understanding is that age of VL29 is only 3,300 years. This is the main argument against Corded Ware expansion for that subclade. It however fits nicely with beginnings of Net Ware:
    "During the second half of the second millennium BC the BronzeAge culture of Net Ware formed in an areabounded by the Upper Volga in the south, LakeOnega in the north, the upper reaches of the RiverSukhona in the east and in the west by the area tothe southeast of Lake Ladoga and possibly as far asthe River Volkhov"
    (I found Kosmenko's article, quote is from that, thanks for this source of info!).
    Whether they adjusted age to fit with Net Ware :) Or they used standard methodology for age calcs and it coincided nicely with Net Ware I don't know. It seems like L550+ in the West part of it. Including the Rurik's homeland in Central Sweden (Fig.1 of Kosmenko article). The only problem I see is why Southern Baltic coasts lack this culture? Samland? If not Samland, at least North Curonia? Did it arrive later?

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    Quote Originally Posted by Kristiina View Post
    As Finnish is very close to Estonian and Finnic languages (including Estonian and Finnish) are close to Mordvin language (spoken to the southeast of Estonia), and Saami languages are further apart, it is also possible that Finnic languages developed from of the Corded Ware Culture and Saami languages developed from the Iron Age Net Ware culture.

    Ancient yDNA and autosomal data would make the picture much clearer.
    How is this possible when it is supposed that Corded Ware were proto-Indo-Germanic speakers. While Finnic folks and their language are not Indo-European at all. Not by race (broad faces, small eyes, different facial structure, thick necks, etc..), not by language, not by culture etc..


    Finnish and Saami are family languages of each other. And they are very close to each other. Finnish is much closer to Saami than to any Indo-European language in the world. That means that Finnish and Saami have the same roots. Has nothing to do with Corded Ware.

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    Arvistro, that 3300 for VL29 is not correct.
    According to y full, VL29 formed 4100 ybp and TMRCA is 3500 ybp, and it is possible that it arose on the Finnish territory.
    N-M2126 formed 7200 ybp with TMRCA of 6100 ybp. N1c found in Smolensk in Serteya context 2500 BC should belong to this branch as the cultural horizon of Zhizhitskaya culture of piledwellings goes back to 4–3 mill. cal. BC.

    N-M2126 has two branches: N1c-M2019 formed 6100 ybp with TMRCA of 3300 ybp and this line is found in Estonia, and N1c-L1026 formed 6100 ybp with TMRCA of 4500 ybp.

    N1c-L1026 has three sub-branches:
    N1c-Z1936 formed 4500 ybp, TMRCA 4500 ybp (Finland, Karelia, Western Siberia)
    N1c-F4205 formed 4500 ybp, TMRCA 3000 ybp (Central Asia, Northeast Asia)
    N1c-CTS10760 formed 4500 ybp, TMRCA 4100 ybp (Baltic Sea area)

    The Corded Ware horizon would also explain why half of Baltic yDNA is N1c and why Finns are autosomally closer to continental Corded Ware than Germans.

    According to archaeologists Net Ware/textile ceramic arose in the area to the south of Lake Ladoga, so it matches very well the distribution of N1c-Z1936 from where it could have spread to northwest, northeast and southeast. Karelian Z1936 has a sub-branch, Z1941, that has spread to West Finland and Estonia, and when I look at Figure 1 "Distribution of Net Ware in the Northern Europe", I see that Net Ware extends to Western Finland and Estonia but not to Latvia or to Lithuania.

    IMO, we need ancient yDNA in order to resolve this question.
    Last edited by Kristiina; 06-03-16 at 21:26.

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    I know that it is often argued that Finnish Corded Ware people were proto- Germanic speakers, but IMO there are two VERY big problems:

    1. Continental Corded Ware is dated 2900 BC —2350 BC and the Swedish-Norwegian Battle Axe culture, or the Boat Axe culture, appeared ca. 2800 BC and the Finnish Corded Ware is dated 3200–2600. The Finnish Corded Ware is 400 years older than the Scandinavian Battle Axe culture.

    2. Proto-Germanic arose c. 500 BC and developed into three branches during the first half of the 1st millennium AD which is much too late for the Finnish Corded Ware, as according to Kurgan theory the Proto-Indo-European language itself arose c. between 4000-3000 BC.

    By comparison, the Scandinavian R1a1 branch, R-Z284 formed 4500 ybp with TMRCA of 4200 ybp, which means that it formed c. 300 years after the start of the Scandinavian Battle Axe culture.

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    Quote Originally Posted by Kristiina View Post
    The Corded Ware horizon would also explain why half of Baltic yDNA is N1c
    No, it can not.
    VL29 was not born yet, half of Baltic yDNA is under M2782, which is derived from that one single man born 3,500 years ago (TMRCA) and most likely living in the area marked as 3 "The area in the earlystage." in the Figure 1 "Distribution of Net Ware in the Northern Europe" of Kosmenko's "THE CULTURE OF BRONZE AGE NET WARE IN KARELIA".
    He would then spread his seed to the wide area marked as 2 "Area of Net Ware" and his (grand)sons would find their ways into Baltic tribes one way or the other.

    Quote Originally Posted by Kristiina View Post
    According to archaeologists Net Ware/textile ceramic arose in the area to the south of Lake Ladoga, so it matches very well the distribution of N1c-L1026 from where it could have spread to northwest, northeast and southeast.

    IMO, we need ancient yDNA in order to resolve this question.
    Yes, L1026 (or VL29 right away?), and he had boys VL29, and he had boys L550 and he had boys L1025 and he had boys M2782. Only M2782 were/became Balts, as you see some long time after Corded Ware.
    I think some other L1026* might have been part of Baltic tribes earlier, but they did not leave descendants in modern population. Half (40%) of our Y comes from those M2782 guys, most likely coming from clans derived from Net Ware culture.

    _____
    Alternative is of course, that VL29 age is underestimated and it was formed before Corded Ware.

    Quote Originally Posted by Kristiina View Post
    IMO, we need ancient yDNA in order to resolve this question.
    Fingers crossed it comes closer end of the year. There is a Finnish/Estonian project I think they are testing iron age samples from Finland/Estonia/Northern Russia to resolve this question. Hope they go deep into subclades.

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    According to y full Baltic N1c is N-M2783 which formed 2600 ybp, TMRCA 2600 ybp. It has one parallel branch which is found in Finland and Sweden. Its ancestor, N-Z4908 which formed 3500 ybp, TMRCA 3400 ybp, may very well have arisen in Western Finland as its subclades are usually found both in Sweden and Finland. Its parallel branch, N-CTS9976CTS9976, formed 3500 ybp, TMRCA 3500 ybp, is very Finnish with a mostly Western Finnish distribution (Häme).

    Therefore, I could very well imagine that N1c-L1026, formed 6100 ybp with TMRCA of 4500 ybp, arrived with Corded Ware to Finland, and developed there into VL29 4100 ybp and then with the improved shipping and Iron Age technology moved to Baltic area at the start of the Iron Age c. 1000 BC and somewhat later on to Sweden.

    On the other hand, N1c-L1026 could well have developed into Z1936 in the core area of Net Ware Culture spreading to Finland during the Iron Age while its parallel branches were taken eastward.

    I also hope that ancient yDNA will resolve this question. 

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    Quote Originally Posted by Kristiina View Post
    I know that it is often argued that Finnish Corded Ware people were proto- Germanic speakers, but IMO there are two VERY big problems:

    1. Continental Corded Ware is dated 2900 BC —2350 BC and the Swedish-Norwegian Battle Axe culture, or the Boat Axe culture, appeared ca. 2800 BC and the Finnish Corded Ware is dated 3200–2600. The Finnish Corded Ware is 400 years older than the Scandinavian Battle Axe culture.

    2. Proto-Germanic arose c. 500 BC and developed into three branches during the first half of the 1st millennium AD which is much too late for the Finnish Corded Ware, as according to Kurgan theory the Proto-Indo-European language itself arose c. between 4000-3000 BC.

    By comparison, the Scandinavian R1a1 branch, R-Z284 formed 4500 ybp with TMRCA of 4200 ybp, which means that it formed c. 300 years after the start of the Scandinavian Battle Axe culture.
    You might be very right. Corded Ware was very multiethnic/multicultural. And it was Europoid = Mongoloid + Caucasoid. It's possible that Mongoloid part of Corded Ware came from Scandinavia and NorthEast Europe. So it's possible that FinnoUgric folks heavily influenced Crded Ware. Caucasoid part has to come from Yamnaya and maybe WHG.

    Notice that Yamnaya Indo-Europeans were R1b and mostly dark skinned. Also Caucasoid WHG was dark skinned.


    Kurgan theory is for a huge part wrong. Why? Because the oldest Kurgans has been found in West Asia and not in the Yamnaya Horizon. True, IE who entered Europe came from Yamnaya. But IE never Indo-Europized Armenia, India etc. There're studies about it.

    Yamnaya is 5000 years old, while Maykop is 5500-6000 years old. Corded Ware is younger than Yamnaya and definitely younger than Maykop.


    In turn, I think that Europoid (Mongoloid+Caucasoid) Indo-Europeans from Croded Ware influenced the Baltics and Finnish lands a little bit more than the influenced Saami. That's why Saami are more pure than Finnish en Baltic folks. Saami lived much more isolated.

    So there was a mutual influence between Finno-Ugric folks and Corded Ware folks.

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    1 out of 1 members found this post helpful.
    Goga, I would prefer neutral terms 'northeast Eurasian' / 'southeast Eurasian', or, if you want to insist, 'Siberian' / 'Mongoloid', because Siberian is formed from ANE + ENA while Mongoloid is only ENA. However, there are two types of Siberian: depending on the model, Arctic is up to 70% ANE (such as Eskimos) while Nganasan type Siberian carries much less ANE.

    If we get a c. 10 000 years old genome from the Northern Pacific Coast, we will probably obtain a component that will be useful in determining modern Siberian ancestry.

    You are not correct in connecting Uralic languages with Mongoloids. Uralic groups have mixed with Siberians who were a mixture of ANE and ENA. Moreover, the direction is probably not what you think, see picture below:

    Mansi v Ket.jpg

    The graph shows that Uralic speaking Mansis who are 87% yDNA N are on the Western Eurasian side of the East West divide while yDNA Q carrying Selkups and Kets are on the Eastern Eurasian side. The graph also shows that Mansis have received important geneflow from Kets.
    Moreover, Nganasans who are on the same side as Kets and Selkups carry N1b-VL67 (Asia) which they share with Turkic and Tungusic groups (including Tuvinians, Bashkirs, Tatars, Mongols, Yakuts, Evens) but not with Finns or Volga Uralic groups.

    Source: ‘Genomic study of the Ket: a Paleo-Eskimo-related ethnic group with significant ancient North Eurasian ancestry’
    Last edited by Kristiina; 07-03-16 at 21:37.

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    2 out of 2 members found this post helpful.
    The Language Contact Situation in Prehistoric Northeastern Europe

    https://www.academia.edu/20252178/Th...eastern_Europe

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    1 out of 1 members found this post helpful.
    A good article! However, IMO, we need ancient yDNA and autosomal data from relevant areas.

    I agree that the Northern Volga forest area is the best candidate for the origin of Uralic languages. Linguistic, genetic and archaeological evidence all support that idea.

    By contrast, I am against Altaian/South Siberian homeland for Uralic languages. It looks like IE-speaking groups as well as Uralic speaking groups went there and it was a kind of ‘Wild West’ of the late Bronze Age / Iron Age. Maybe there were important resources to be acquired and groups were fighting over trade routes and trading centres but I am fairly sure that Uralic and IE languages were new comers in the area; and I am so revolutionary that I think that even proto-Turkic was spoken west of Altai in Kazakhstan and they also went east to obtain the control of the area and Silk Road trade.

    IMO, Yeniseian languages are a good candidate for a language family spoken in South Siberia before the Bronze Age. In support of this idea, I insist in the findings of ‘Genomic study of the Ket’. According to it, Kets are significantly closer to Karasuk (Z > 2.9) as compared to most populations in the dataset; and best hits for Kets were (r > 0.95): Altaians, Koryaks, and Iron Age Russia. f3 statistics for Iron Age Altai and Karasuk correlated best between each other and with those of Kets (r > 0.8).

    Karasuk yDNA was Q1a1 and R1a1; Iron Age Russia yDNA was 2xQ1a1, 2xJ2a2 and R1a1. There are also other studies on ancient yDNA in Altai and they are full of yDNA Q. N1c is rare and late. Of course, Chinese Neolithic is full of N but according to y full, the Chinese branch formed 18300 ybp with a TMRCA of 16300 ybp, and N1c-L708 separated from Shors/Chinese N1c(xL708) 12000 ybp, which is pretty long time ago!

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    Kristiina, you asked in Eurogenes comments "By the way, do you know the place in Russia where yfull YF04468 comes from?".

    http://www.yfull.com/tree/N-CTS10760*/


    It comes from the Oka region, moved there from near Ural, ancestry is Uralic.

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    Thanks Ukko! So his ancestor may have come to Oka region from the west within the Uralic speaking contact area.

    Of course, I do not know where N-VL29 arose, and nobody knows it, but, in any case, N-VL29 looks like having been on the eastern side of the Baltic Sea at least since 2100 BC.

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    Y-DNA haplogroup
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    Typically Finno-Ugric N1c are all branches which are either L1026* or descended from L1026; while typically Baltic N1c is only M2783 (young and descended from typically Ugro-Finnic L1026) and Rurikid N1c is Y4338, which is also young, and also descended from L1026.

    So even if Rurik was a Germanic-speaker, then it appears that he had originated from Finno-Ugrians.

    Baltic M2783 also appears to be originally from Ugro-Finns.

    Check this tree of N1c1a1 (subclade - formation time / TMRCA according to age estimates by YFull):



    BTW:

    In FTDNA Projects "N1c1 Hg" and "Rurikid Dynasty", most of men with Y4338 are from Russia and Finland rather than Sweden.

    ====================

    Ultimately haplogroup N1c came to Europe from Eastern Siberia and its ancestral haplogroup N originated in South-East Asia:


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    1 out of 1 members found this post helpful.
    Sorry, Eastern Siberia is not correct. You should study yfull. The age of YDNA N there is less than 4000 years (N-F4205 TMRCA 3000 ybp), i.e. it arrived c. 1500 bC from Western Siberia with metal working. The oldest N confirmed so far is from Neolithic North China c. 5000 BC and in the future it may very well be detected in Central Asia as well. You surely know as well as I do that Yakut N1c is a recent founder effect from the Middle Ages.
    Last edited by Kristiina; 13-04-16 at 08:56.

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    1 out of 1 members found this post helpful.
    The Y4338 subclade is named "Para-Rurik" (Russian: парарюрикидов), which was originally formed 2,900 years ago in Finland. The Rurik clan belonged to N-Y10931 (1,750 ybp) and its date of origin largely coincides with the emergence of the Varangians in Western Russia and its descendant subclades such as N-VL11 and N-VL12 (900 ybp) are only found in Russia. The Varangians had been roaming around the areas north of the Black Sea, engaging in piracy and mercenary activities, long before Rurik's supposed arrival to the Slavic hearland. The Slavs and the Varangian Rus' admixed for many centuries and the Varangians may have gone native in region by the time when the Rurik dynasty was established.

    Last edited by ThirdTerm; 13-04-16 at 04:52.

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    1 out of 1 members found this post helpful.
    Tomenable, the figure you posted is as good as this:

    Paleolithic R1b.jpg

    Both are based on modern frequencies with the logic of highest frequency equals oldest age and do not take into account the TMRCA of different subclades and the available ancient yDNA evidence.

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