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Thread: Scandinavian origin of the Rurikid N1c1 lineage from Central Sweden

  1. #51
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    Y-DNA haplogroup
    R1b - L21/S145*
    MtDNA haplogroup
    H3c

    Ethnic group
    more celtic
    Country: France



    Quote Originally Posted by Goga View Post
    You might be very right. Corded Ware was very multiethnic/multicultural. And it was Europoid = Mongoloid + Caucasoid. It's possible that Mongoloid part of Corded Ware came from Scandinavia and NorthEast Europe. So it's possible that FinnoUgric folks heavily influenced Crded Ware. Caucasoid part has to come from Yamnaya and maybe WHG.

    Notice that Yamnaya Indo-Europeans were R1b and mostly dark skinned. Also Caucasoid WHG was dark skinned.



    In turn, I think that Europoid (Mongoloid+Caucasoid) Indo-Europeans from Croded Ware influenced the Baltics and Finnish lands a little bit more than the influenced Saami. That's why Saami are more pure than Finnish en Baltic folks. Saami lived much more isolated.

    So there was a mutual influence between Finno-Ugric folks and Corded Ware folks.
    Goga, where did you pick Corded Ware people were a mix of 'caucasoids' and 'mongoloids' ?!? And in what proportion? Are you not confusing Corded with other associated cultures as Battle Axe? These last ones could have taken some 'mongoloid' (slight) imput when reaching the East-Baltic/Finland surroundings regions. But the CWC phenomenon in its origins is not the result a melting pot of 'europoid' and 'east-asian' types, for me, at least at the level of my present knowledge.

  2. #52
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    Y-DNA haplogroup
    R1a*
    MtDNA haplogroup
    HV1b2

    Country: Netherlands



    If we assume that this is the Corded Ware Horizon do you agree?




    https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Corded_Ware_culture


    All those folks within that Horizion belonged to the same confederation of cultures. The so called 'Mongoloid' Y-DNA haplogroups like N1c1 and Q are NATIVE to the eastern parts of the Corded Ware. I do assume that all folks within the Horizon mixed with each other, because of the common environment. So tribes in the West mixed heavily with the tribes in the East and therefore we got a melting pot between different haplogroups and different races. Also, even the auDNA of the western Corded Ware folks are somehow shifted to the east.

  3. #53
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    Y-DNA haplogroup
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    1 out of 1 members found this post helpful.
    Quote Originally Posted by Goga View Post
    If we assume that this is the Corded Ware Horizon do you agree?




    https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Corded_Ware_culture


    All those folks within that Horizion belonged to the same confederation of cultures. The so called 'Mongoloid' Y-DNA haplogroups like N1c1 and Q are NATIVE to the eastern parts of the Corded Ware. I do assume that all folks within the Horizon mixed with each other, because of the common environment. So tribes in the West mixed heavily with the tribes in the East and therefore we got a melting pot between different haplogroups and different races. Also, even the auDNA of the western Corded Ware folks are somehow shifted to the east.
    Goga, you jump very quickly to definitive conclusions, based upon facts, but facts analysed through your personal spectacles; We saw in Central Europe tribes living side by side and they did not mix one to another too quickly, spite the today credo of someones; it occurred more or less fast at least not always in the same way (by the way, concerning the males-females desequilibrated matings, I think we cannot affirm the most of the populations had the same variability as the elites, these last ones marrying for political-economial reasons, everywhere).
    the Corded auDNA we have (maybe not representative of all the culture?) shows only a little imput of East Asia, and for the most of North-Siberia-Amerindian sort, so not typically 'mongoloid'. The Corded skeletons considered by scientists (not only C.Coon) showed physical types at the opposite of the East-Asians types.
    So, looking at maps and concluding, according to the territories covered and the populations living there TODAY, that the tribes living there IN PAST were of this or that type or a mix of them, IS A MAGIC OPERATION.
    I beg the pardon of all here because I had no time to discuss the very thread here, and Y-N1c and Finnic-I-E question. It spite me to insist on physical aspect, but I cannot do with vague and hazardous affirmations. No offense.

  4. #54
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    Country: Finland



    Quote Originally Posted by ThirdTerm View Post
    The Y4338 subclade is named "Para-Rurik" (Russian: парарюрикидов), which was originally formed 2,900 years ago in Finland. The Rurik clan belonged to N-Y10931 (1,750 ybp) and its date of origin largely coincides with the emergence of the Varangians in Western Russia and its descendant subclades such as N-VL11 and N-VL12 (900 ybp) are only found in Russia. The Varangians had been roaming around the areas north of the Black Sea, engaging in piracy and mercenary activities, long before Rurik's supposed arrival to the Slavic hearland. The Slavs and the Varangian Rus' admixed for many centuries and the Varangians may have gone native in region by the time when the Rurik dynasty was established.


    Funny how these Varangian lines all lead to Baltic Finns.

    https://www.yfull.com/tree/N-VL29/



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    Country: Finland



    This is actually fun, people choking and choking as the noose gets tighter.

  6. #56
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    Country: Finland



    The most influential proponent claiming that the founders of the early stage of Russia, including their leader Rurik, were ethnically Finnish has been the Empress Catherine the Great of Russia, a.k.a. Catherine II.

    In her writings on the history of Russia, Catherine II placed the home of origin of the Varangians in the region between Ingria and Finland, i.e. in Karelia. Both Catherine and her husband Emperor Peter III of Russia were Rurikid descendants.

    Catherine even wrote a play about Rurik, in which the dying Gostomysl instructs his followers to elect his daughters son, grandson of a Finnish prince, as their ruler.

    It was also during the reign of Catherine II, that three editions were published of a short review of Russian history by Timofei Malgin, another advocate of the Finnish theory, and a work of similar persuasions by Ivan P. Yelagin, literary adviser to the Empress and the founder of Russian freemasonry.

    Other proponents of the "Finnish theory" have included – but are not limited to – the following:

    • Rurikid descendant and the author of the first full-scale Russian history Vasily Tatishchev • Rurikid prince and a historian Mikhail Shcherbatov • historian Viktor Paranin (1990) • historian Johan Adolf Lindström (has presented also a Goth-Varangian theory) • historian A. H. Snellman (Artturi Heikki Virkkunen) • historian Yrjö Koskinen • historian Jalmari Jaakkola • historian Matti Klinge • archaeologist Pirkko-Liisa Lehtosalo-Hilander • Professor of Finnish and Scandinavian archaeology Carl Fredrik Meinander.

    Vasily Tatishchev was a prominent Russian statesman and ethnographer, best remembered as the author of the first full-scale Russian history. He is sometimes referred to as the "father of Russian history".

    According to Vasily Tatishchev, the Rus' originated from the area of Finland and the Rus' were Finns. He based his knowledge primarily on the Ioachim Chronicle. The original chronicle was lost, and its contents are known through Tatishchev's "History of Russia" (История Российская).

    Further support for Tatishchev`s Finnish theory was provided by the "Chronicon Finlandiae", written by an unknown author, published by Christian Nettelbladt in 1728.

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