Scandinavian origin of the Rurikid N1c1 lineage from Central Sweden

I know that it is often argued that Finnish Corded Ware people were proto- Germanic speakers, but IMO there are two VERY big problems:

1. Continental Corded Ware is dated 2900 BC —2350 BC and the Swedish-Norwegian Battle Axe culture, or the Boat Axe culture, appeared ca. 2800 BC and the Finnish Corded Ware is dated 3200–2600. The Finnish Corded Ware is 400 years older than the Scandinavian Battle Axe culture.

2. Proto-Germanic arose c. 500 BC and developed into three branches during the first half of the 1st millennium AD which is much too late for the Finnish Corded Ware, as according to Kurgan theory the Proto-Indo-European language itself arose c. between 4000-3000 BC.

By comparison, the Scandinavian R1a1 branch, R-Z284 formed 4500 ybp with TMRCA of 4200 ybp, which means that it formed c. 300 years after the start of the Scandinavian Battle Axe culture.

You might be very right. Corded Ware was very multiethnic/multicultural. And it was Europoid = Mongoloid + Caucasoid. It's possible that Mongoloid part of Corded Ware came from Scandinavia and NorthEast Europe. So it's possible that FinnoUgric folks heavily influenced Crded Ware. Caucasoid part has to come from Yamnaya and maybe WHG.

Notice that Yamnaya Indo-Europeans were R1b and mostly dark skinned. Also Caucasoid WHG was dark skinned.


Kurgan theory is for a huge part wrong. Why? Because the oldest Kurgans has been found in West Asia and not in the Yamnaya Horizon. True, IE who entered Europe came from Yamnaya. But IE never Indo-Europized Armenia, India etc. There're studies about it.

Yamnaya is 5000 years old, while Maykop is 5500-6000 years old. Corded Ware is younger than Yamnaya and definitely younger than Maykop.


In turn, I think that Europoid (Mongoloid+Caucasoid) Indo-Europeans from Croded Ware influenced the Baltics and Finnish lands a little bit more than the influenced Saami. That's why Saami are more pure than Finnish en Baltic folks. Saami lived much more isolated.

So there was a mutual influence between Finno-Ugric folks and Corded Ware folks.
 
Goga, I would prefer neutral terms 'northeast Eurasian' / 'southeast Eurasian', or, if you want to insist, 'Siberian' / 'Mongoloid', because Siberian is formed from ANE + ENA while Mongoloid is only ENA. However, there are two types of Siberian: depending on the model, Arctic is up to 70% ANE (such as Eskimos) while Nganasan type Siberian carries much less ANE.

If we get a c. 10 000 years old genome from the Northern Pacific Coast, we will probably obtain a component that will be useful in determining modern Siberian ancestry.

You are not correct in connecting Uralic languages with Mongoloids. Uralic groups have mixed with Siberians who were a mixture of ANE and ENA. Moreover, the direction is probably not what you think, see picture below:

Mansi v Ket.jpg

The graph shows that Uralic speaking Mansis who are 87% yDNA N are on the Western Eurasian side of the East West divide while yDNA Q carrying Selkups and Kets are on the Eastern Eurasian side. The graph also shows that Mansis have received important geneflow from Kets.
Moreover, Nganasans who are on the same side as Kets and Selkups carry N1b-VL67 (Asia) which they share with Turkic and Tungusic groups (including Tuvinians, Bashkirs, Tatars, Mongols, Yakuts, Evens) but not with Finns or Volga Uralic groups.

Source: ‘Genomic study of the Ket: a Paleo-Eskimo-related ethnic group with significant ancient North Eurasian ancestry’
 
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A good article! However, IMO, we need ancient yDNA and autosomal data from relevant areas.

I agree that the Northern Volga forest area is the best candidate for the origin of Uralic languages. Linguistic, genetic and archaeological evidence all support that idea.

By contrast, I am against Altaian/South Siberian homeland for Uralic languages. It looks like IE-speaking groups as well as Uralic speaking groups went there and it was a kind of ‘Wild West’ of the late Bronze Age / Iron Age. Maybe there were important resources to be acquired and groups were fighting over trade routes and trading centres but I am fairly sure that Uralic and IE languages were new comers in the area; and I am so revolutionary that I think that even proto-Turkic was spoken west of Altai in Kazakhstan and they also went east to obtain the control of the area and Silk Road trade.

IMO, Yeniseian languages are a good candidate for a language family spoken in South Siberia before the Bronze Age. In support of this idea, I insist in the findings of ‘Genomic study of the Ket’. According to it, Kets are significantly closer to Karasuk (Z > 2.9) as compared to most populations in the dataset; and best hits for Kets were (r > 0.95): Altaians, Koryaks, and Iron Age Russia. f3 statistics for Iron Age Altai and Karasuk correlated best between each other and with those of Kets (r > 0.8).

Karasuk yDNA was Q1a1 and R1a1; Iron Age Russia yDNA was 2xQ1a1, 2xJ2a2 and R1a1. There are also other studies on ancient yDNA in Altai and they are full of yDNA Q. N1c is rare and late. Of course, Chinese Neolithic is full of N but according to y full, the Chinese branch formed 18300 ybp with a TMRCA of 16300 ybp, and N1c-L708 separated from Shors/Chinese N1c(xL708) 12000 ybp, which is pretty long time ago!
 
Thanks Ukko! So his ancestor may have come to Oka region from the west within the Uralic speaking contact area.

Of course, I do not know where N-VL29 arose, and nobody knows it, but, in any case, N-VL29 looks like having been on the eastern side of the Baltic Sea at least since 2100 BC.
 
Typically Finno-Ugric N1c are all branches which are either L1026* or descended from L1026; while typically Baltic N1c is only M2783 (young and descended from typically Ugro-Finnic L1026) and Rurikid N1c is Y4338, which is also young, and also descended from L1026.

So even if Rurik was a Germanic-speaker, then it appears that he had originated from Finno-Ugrians.

Baltic M2783 also appears to be originally from Ugro-Finns.

Check this tree of N1c1a1 (subclade - formation time / TMRCA according to age estimates by YFull):

N1c1a1.png


BTW:

In FTDNA Projects "N1c1 Hg" and "Rurikid Dynasty", most of men with Y4338 are from Russia and Finland rather than Sweden.

====================

Ultimately haplogroup N1c came to Europe from Eastern Siberia and its ancestral haplogroup N originated in South-East Asia:

The-shaded-areas-represent-the-haplogroup-N-distributions.png
 
Sorry, Eastern Siberia is not correct. You should study yfull. The age of YDNA N there is less than 4000 years (N-F4205 TMRCA 3000 ybp), i.e. it arrived c. 1500 bC from Western Siberia with metal working. The oldest N confirmed so far is from Neolithic North China c. 5000 BC and in the future it may very well be detected in Central Asia as well. You surely know as well as I do that Yakut N1c is a recent founder effect from the Middle Ages.
 
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The Y4338 subclade is named "Para-Rurik" (Russian: парарюрикидов), which was originally formed 2,900 years ago in Finland. The Rurik clan belonged to N-Y10931 (1,750 ybp) and its date of origin largely coincides with the emergence of the Varangians in Western Russia and its descendant subclades such as N-VL11 and N-VL12 (900 ybp) are only found in Russia. The Varangians had been roaming around the areas north of the Black Sea, engaging in piracy and mercenary activities, long before Rurik's supposed arrival to the Slavic hearland. The Slavs and the Varangian Rus' admixed for many centuries and the Varangians may have gone native in region by the time when the Rurik dynasty was established.

imageedit_2838_9432085882.png
 
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Tomenable, the figure you posted is as good as this:

Paleolithic R1b.jpg

Both are based on modern frequencies with the logic of highest frequency equals oldest age and do not take into account the TMRCA of different subclades and the available ancient yDNA evidence.
 
You might be very right. Corded Ware was very multiethnic/multicultural. And it was Europoid = Mongoloid + Caucasoid. It's possible that Mongoloid part of Corded Ware came from Scandinavia and NorthEast Europe. So it's possible that FinnoUgric folks heavily influenced Crded Ware. Caucasoid part has to come from Yamnaya and maybe WHG.

Notice that Yamnaya Indo-Europeans were R1b and mostly dark skinned. Also Caucasoid WHG was dark skinned.



In turn, I think that Europoid (Mongoloid+Caucasoid) Indo-Europeans from Croded Ware influenced the Baltics and Finnish lands a little bit more than the influenced Saami. That's why Saami are more pure than Finnish en Baltic folks. Saami lived much more isolated.

So there was a mutual influence between Finno-Ugric folks and Corded Ware folks.

Goga, where did you pick Corded Ware people were a mix of 'caucasoids' and 'mongoloids' ?!? And in what proportion? Are you not confusing Corded with other associated cultures as Battle Axe? These last ones could have taken some 'mongoloid' (slight) imput when reaching the East-Baltic/Finland surroundings regions. But the CWC phenomenon in its origins is not the result a melting pot of 'europoid' and 'east-asian' types, for me, at least at the level of my present knowledge.
 
If we assume that this is the Corded Ware Horizon do you agree?




https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Corded_Ware_culture


All those folks within that Horizion belonged to the same confederation of cultures. The so called 'Mongoloid' Y-DNA haplogroups like N1c1 and Q are NATIVE to the eastern parts of the Corded Ware. I do assume that all folks within the Horizon mixed with each other, because of the common environment. So tribes in the West mixed heavily with the tribes in the East and therefore we got a melting pot between different haplogroups and different races. Also, even the auDNA of the western Corded Ware folks are somehow shifted to the east.
 
If we assume that this is the Corded Ware Horizon do you agree?




https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Corded_Ware_culture


All those folks within that Horizion belonged to the same confederation of cultures. The so called 'Mongoloid' Y-DNA haplogroups like N1c1 and Q are NATIVE to the eastern parts of the Corded Ware. I do assume that all folks within the Horizon mixed with each other, because of the common environment. So tribes in the West mixed heavily with the tribes in the East and therefore we got a melting pot between different haplogroups and different races. Also, even the auDNA of the western Corded Ware folks are somehow shifted to the east.

Goga, you jump very quickly to definitive conclusions, based upon facts, but facts analysed through your personal spectacles; We saw in Central Europe tribes living side by side and they did not mix one to another too quickly, spite the today credo of someones; it occurred more or less fast at least not always in the same way (by the way, concerning the males-females desequilibrated matings, I think we cannot affirm the most of the populations had the same variability as the elites, these last ones marrying for political-economial reasons, everywhere).
the Corded auDNA we have (maybe not representative of all the culture?) shows only a little imput of East Asia, and for the most of North-Siberia-Amerindian sort, so not typically 'mongoloid'. The Corded skeletons considered by scientists (not only C.Coon) showed physical types at the opposite of the East-Asians types.
So, looking at maps and concluding, according to the territories covered and the populations living there TODAY, that the tribes living there IN PAST were of this or that type or a mix of them, IS A MAGIC OPERATION.
I beg the pardon of all here because I had no time to discuss the very thread here, and Y-N1c and Finnic-I-E question. It spite me to insist on physical aspect, but I cannot do with vague and hazardous affirmations. No offense.
 
The Y4338 subclade is named "Para-Rurik" (Russian: парарюрикидов), which was originally formed 2,900 years ago in Finland. The Rurik clan belonged to N-Y10931 (1,750 ybp) and its date of origin largely coincides with the emergence of the Varangians in Western Russia and its descendant subclades such as N-VL11 and N-VL12 (900 ybp) are only found in Russia. The Varangians had been roaming around the areas north of the Black Sea, engaging in piracy and mercenary activities, long before Rurik's supposed arrival to the Slavic hearland. The Slavs and the Varangian Rus' admixed for many centuries and the Varangians may have gone native in region by the time when the Rurik dynasty was established.

imageedit_2838_9432085882.png


Funny how these Varangian lines all lead to Baltic Finns.

https://www.yfull.com/tree/N-VL29/


SNP-N-TREE-FIN.jpg
 
This is actually fun, people choking and choking as the noose gets tighter.
 
The most influential proponent claiming that the founders of the early stage of Russia, including their leader Rurik, were ethnically Finnish has been the Empress Catherine the Great of Russia, a.k.a. Catherine II.

In her writings on the history of Russia, Catherine II placed the home of origin of the Varangians in the region between Ingria and Finland, i.e. in Karelia. Both Catherine and her husband Emperor Peter III of Russia were Rurikid descendants.

Catherine even wrote a play about Rurik, in which the dying Gostomysl instructs his followers to elect his daughters son, grandson of a Finnish prince, as their ruler.

It was also during the reign of Catherine II, that three editions were published of a short review of Russian history by Timofei Malgin, another advocate of the Finnish theory, and a work of similar persuasions by Ivan P. Yelagin, literary adviser to the Empress and the founder of Russian freemasonry.

Other proponents of the "Finnish theory" have included – but are not limited to – the following:

• Rurikid descendant and the author of the first full-scale Russian history Vasily Tatishchev • Rurikid prince and a historian Mikhail Shcherbatov • historian Viktor Paranin (1990) • historian Johan Adolf Lindström (has presented also a Goth-Varangian theory) • historian A. H. Snellman (Artturi Heikki Virkkunen) • historian Yrjö Koskinen • historian Jalmari Jaakkola • historian Matti Klinge • archaeologist Pirkko-Liisa Lehtosalo-Hilander • Professor of Finnish and Scandinavian archaeology Carl Fredrik Meinander.

Vasily Tatishchev was a prominent Russian statesman and ethnographer, best remembered as the author of the first full-scale Russian history. He is sometimes referred to as the "father of Russian history".

According to Vasily Tatishchev, the Rus' originated from the area of Finland and the Rus' were Finns. He based his knowledge primarily on the Ioachim Chronicle. The original chronicle was lost, and its contents are known through Tatishchev's "History of Russia" (История Российская).

Further support for Tatishchev`s Finnish theory was provided by the "Chronicon Finlandiae", written by an unknown author, published by Christian Nettelbladt in 1728.
 

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