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Thread: Scandinavian origin of the Rurikid N1c1 lineage from Central Sweden

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    Scandinavian origin of the Rurikid N1c1 lineage from Central Sweden

    No more to Russian or Finnish nationalism nonsense. Rurik was de facto a native to Central Sweden who carried the haplotype N1c1.

    Scandinavian origin of the Rurikid N1c1 lineage (Genetic proof)
    http://www.elisanet.fi/alkupera/Rurikid.pdf

    In the footsteps of Rurik (Archeological artifacts)
    http://www.norden.ru/fckeditor/edito...s%20russia.pdf

    Rurikid
    According to the FamilyTreeDNA Rurikid Dynasty DNA Project, Rurik appears to have belonged to Y-DNA haplogroup N1c1, based on testing of his modern male line descendants. But while genetically related to the later Baltic Finnic peoples, the Rurikids do not possess the DYS390=24 mutation associated with the Finnic languages, theirs remaining the ancestral DYS390=23, with the Rurikid haplotype itself (all values considered) more closely associated with North Germanic speakers (Varangians).

    Further genetic studies seem to indicate the existence of two major haplogroups among modern Rurikids: the descendants of Vladimir II Monomakh (Monomakhoviches) and some others are of N1c1 group (130 people or 68%), while the descendants of a junior prince from the branch of Oleg I of Chernigov (Olgoviches) and some others (total 45 peoples or 24%) are of R1a and R1b haplogroups typical for Slavic, Germanic and Celtic peoples.
    The Rurik dynasty or Rurikids (Russian: Рю́риковичи, Ukrainian: Рю́риковичі, Belarusian: Ру́рыковичи) was a dynasty founded by the Varangian prince Rurik, who established himself in Novgorod around the year 862 AD. The Rurikids were the ruling dynasty of Kievan Rus' (after 862), the successor principalities of Galicia-Volhynia (after 1199), Chernigov, Vladimir-Suzdal, and the Grand Duchy of Moscow, and the founders of the Tsardom of Russia. They are one of Europe's oldest royal houses, with numerous existing cadet branches.
    Rurik or Riurik (Russian: Рюрик, Old East Norse: Rørik, meaning "famous ruler"; ca 830 – ca 879) was a Varangian chieftain who gained control of Ladoga in 862, built the Holmgard settlement near Novgorod, and founded the Rurik Dynasty, which ruled Kievan Rus (and later Grand Duchy of Moscow and Tsardom of Russia) until the 17th century.

    Riurik is the Slavic rendering of the same Germanic name as the modern English Roderick, or Spanish and Portuguese Rodrigo. In old Germanic languages it had forms such as Hrodric (Old High German) and Hroðricus (Old English). In Old Norse, the name occurs as Hrœrekr (Norway, Iceland) and Hrørīkr or Rørik (Denmark, Sweden), from which Riurik is derived. The name also appears in Beowulf as Hrēðrīk.
    http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Rurikid

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    1 out of 1 members found this post helpful.
    at far origin, the Rörik ancestors were akin to Finns' ancestors (as my Breton ancestors are akin in some remote past to a steppic people!)
    but historically, according to your documentation, Rörik branch was settled in Sweden and in N-germanic culture and nation for a long time - so I agree with you - history is in evolution - and the "slavophile" tries to deny the scandinavian origin of some of the first Russ astonish me...

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    N1c is found in no more than 10-12% of swedes on a national level. It arrived from eastern Scandinavia ( Finland and Siberia before that).

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    The haplogrouping of Rurik is based on the fact that a number of extant royal houses have pretty good claims of descent from Rurik; genotyping a number of individuals from these houses reveals that about 60% (from diverse regions) are N1c1, and in-fact share a number of unique mutations on top of the standard N1c1-defining sites.
    http://freepages.genealogy.rootsweb....ksty/ydna.html

    Quote Originally Posted by adamo View Post
    N1c is found in no more than 10-12% of swedes on a national level. It arrived from eastern Scandinavia ( Finland and Siberia before that).
    Half of them in Swedes probably came from the Finnish immigration and the Saamis.

    However, probably the N1c1 might already have been in Sweden for more than 4500-5000 years, as much as I1, though their numbers have always been small as proposed in this study.
    http://www.elisanet.fi/alkupera/N1c1.pdf

    Also, in Northern Eastern Sweden during the pre and Viking age proper (Iron Age Germanic culture in Scandinavia) some kind of Finnic farming people (the Kvens) lived there. Most were conquered and assimilated by the Swedes (Svears) during the 'Viking age' expansion to north, medieval era and later.

    Moreover, a native Finnic minority still exists in North, Tornedalians.
    Last edited by Balder; 25-04-13 at 05:20.

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    Sorry to address here this kind of question but how can I add two flags to my profile? Are the muscovites better related with rurikids than gediminids?

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    Haplogroup N males first arrived on the eastern Finnish border/parts of extreme west Russia, in the last 3000 years, R1b males have been in Europe longest (30,000) years, followed by the men of I (20,000) years. The N1c branch is among the youngest in Europe.

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    Um, what?

    Adamo, you must be getting your talking points from the Spencer Wells School of Wishful Thinking. Evidence please?

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    I'm addressing specifically your R1b 30,000 year old European claim.

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    My "talking points"? The spencer who college of what? And where can I get a ticket?

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    Quote Originally Posted by adamo View Post
    My "talking points"? The spencer who college of what? And where can I get a ticket?
    My apologies... please allow me to speak in a more simple manner. What proof do you have that R1b has been in Europe for 30,000 years?

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    I know exactly what you meant the first time, what I know is that both the R1b and I lineages have been in Europe a long time before the N men arrived near Finland. From what I have read, R1b men are comparable to mtdna U females, the first men to colonize Europe and these early pale cro-magnon types helped bring about the end of Neanderthals. By the time the men of I arrived to Europe via Anatolia, the Neanderthals had gone extinct. Other studies claim that hg I came first

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    Quote Originally Posted by adamo View Post
    I know exactly what you meant the first time, what I know is that both the R1b and I lineages have been in Europe a long time before the N men arrived near Finland. From what I have read, R1b men are comparable to mtdna U females, the first men to colonize Europe and these early pale cro-magnon types helped bring about the end of Neanderthals. By the time the men of I arrived to Europe via Anatolia, the Neanderthals had gone extinct. Other studies claim that hg I came first
    O.K. gotcha. There are other y-haplogroups besides hg. I that could have possibly made up Cro-Magnon population(s). These include hg. C, F, G, or even E. I don't think it's reasonable to consider R1b though.
    Last edited by nordicquarreler; 30-07-13 at 13:12.

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    I doubt there where many men of hg G 30,000 years ago in Europe, they where propelled by the Neolithic arriving 15,000 years ago. Hg C men never made their way to Europe, they hugged the southern Asian coasts, moving through Southeast Asia to Australia, and from the Philippines and Japan to Siberia/Mongolia/Kazakhstan ( the latter probably where Mongols under Ghenghis khan invading Central Asia (Kazakhstan) even many Hazara males (40%) are C, probably of the C3 variety in all those central Asian regions.) as for hg F, I don't see how that could be in Europe without a downstream mutation. E3b may have been among them, or it may have arrived more around 10,000-15,000 years ago, just like the G men and J2 men slightly later, would have. I think it's more than reasonable to consider R1b and I y-DNA lineages as having been the first European males, along with mtdna H,V and U females (certain European U lineages,of course.)
    Last edited by adamo; 02-08-13 at 11:27.

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    1 out of 1 members found this post helpful.
    Haplogroup C actually did make it to Europe. There's another thread about it started by a contributor named Anthro. Remaining members are spread very thinly among European populations, but they are indeed there. Also, I think there was a lot more haplogroup G than you realize in ancient Europe. Look at the number of G members being found in archeological sites. All of this is speculation though because we don't have enough really old results in yet. For the R1b introductions, please refer to Maciamo's recent maps which include dates on each of the subclades.

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    How low are these trace frequencies of C in Europe? G has been found in several sites in Bavaria, italian alps, other nearby areas at low % as well, but its highest in Europe is Sardinia (20%) southern Italy (15%) of males, as high as 25% near foggia and apulia. Greeks have it at lower frequencies 5-7%) highs of 10% maybe in a few regions.

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    Quote Originally Posted by Balder View Post
    The haplogrouping of Rurik is based on the fact that a number of extant royal houses have pretty good claims of descent from Rurik; genotyping a number of individuals from these houses reveals that about 60% (from diverse regions) are N1c1, and in-fact share a number of unique mutations on top of the standard N1c1-defining sites.
    (link removed by Petter, I have fewer than 10 posts)


    Half of them in Swedes probably came from the Finnish immigration and the Saamis.

    However, probably the N1c1 might already have been in Sweden for more than 4500-5000 years, as much as I1, though their numbers have always been small as proposed in this study.
    (link removed by Petter, I have fewer than 10 posts)

    Also, in Northern Eastern Sweden during the pre and Viking age proper (Iron Age Germanic culture in Scandinavia) some kind of Finnic farming people (the Kvens) lived there. Most were conquered and assimilated by the Swedes (Svears) during the 'Viking age' expansion to north, medieval era and later.

    Moreover, a native Finnic minority still exists in North, Tornedalians.
    This is very interesting - the fact that there is an N which is unique to Sweden shows that it is a very old haplogroup in Europe. It most certainly predates that arrival of Finns, and maybe also the arrival of comb-ceramic pottery?

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    Kvens (Kwänen) from Sweden were Finnic-speaking people.

    According to this ethnic map from 1847, there were still Kvens living even in inland southern Sweden at that time:

    http://historum.com/european-history...73?postcount=9

    German-made map in question, published in year 1847:

    Fragment showing Kvenland: http://postimg.org/image/52yrnky2j/

    Baltic Sea area plus legend: http://postimg.org/image/7bhs4lgwp/full/




    This 1847 map shows huge inland areas as Kvenish majority + "Schwedische Ansiedlung" (Swedish colonisation).

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    This FamilyTree site is intresting in order to understand Rurikids: https://www.familytreedna.com/public...x?section=ymap

    In this map there are two Rurikids in Sweden, one in Finland, one in Romania, one in France, one in UK and one in Siberia.

    Proto-Rurikids should be related to the origin of this line, although I admit that the Rurikid line cannot have arisen in Belarus, Lithuania, Latvia, Finland Sweden, Denmark and Norway at the same time. However, it is quite safe to say that the line arose somewhere in the surroundings of the Baltic Sea. Sometimes men move a lot, and their descendants are found here and there.

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    Quote Originally Posted by Kristiina View Post
    Sometimes men move a lot, and their descendants are found here and there.
    And I did not mean that it is or ever was usual for one man to leave descendants here and there; I rather meant that in the course of generations it happens that a son moves to a different place from his father's place.

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    1 out of 1 members found this post helpful.
    The oldest sample of N1c so far, is from Russian-Belarusian borderland and dates back to the mid-3rd millennium BC:

    http://www.eupedia.com/forum/threads...l=1#post464726

    2) Three medium-aged samples belong to Zhizhitskaya culture from the middle of the 3rd millennium BC. It was under strong cultural influence of Corded Ware and/or Globular Amphora cultures. According to Dolukhanov et al. (page 185), Corded or Globular population penetrated this culture, mixing with the locals:

    Sample A6 - site Serteya II - dated to ca. 2500 BC; Y-DNA: N1c, mtDNA: H2

    Sample A8 - site Naumovo - dated to ca. 2500 BC; Y-DNA: R1a1, mtDNA: H2

    Smple A9 - site Serteya II - dated to ca. 2500 BC; Y-DNA: R1a1, mtDNA: H2

    (...)

    Zhizhitskaya culture was a Late Neolithic culture of fishermen and farmers, building pile dwellings near lakes and rivers. It was at least partially descended from earlier indigenous North-East European cultures of the Comb Ceramic horizon:

    https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Pit–Comb_Ware_culture
    Unfortunately there is no detailed info on what subclade that could be.

    But if that was L550 then it will mean that L550 emerged in Zhizhitskaya culture, because it is not older than it.

    Rurikid branch of N1c is one of sub-branches of L550. Here a nice tree:

    http://www.kolumbus.fi/geodun/YDNA/SNP-N-TREE-FIN.jpg



    And here age estimates:

    http://www.theapricity.com/forum/sho...=1#post3781523

    According to age estimates by YFull, TMRCA of VL29 is ca. 4300 years old and L550 ca. 3500 years old (formed):

    http://www.yfull.com/tree/N-VL29/

    According to many opinions YFull estimates are 10-20% too young, so up to 5400 and 4400 years old respectively.

    N1c from Zhizhitskaya culture is from the middle of the 3rd millennium BC (4500 years old +/- a few centuries):

    http://www.theapricity.com/forum/sho...=1#post3780515

    If this sample turns out to be L550, then we will have 99% proof that Zhizhitskaya is where L550 emerged.

    ===========================

    Do you think that Zhizhitskaya people could be Finnic-speaking and later became Indo-Europeanised?

    IIRC, it has been argued that Finnic language was not present in this area (map) in the 3rd millennium BC:

    http://postimg.org/image/hsmtvl7xd/

    That N1c sample in question (from the 3rd millennium BC) was found near Serteya (^ map above).

    ===================
    ===================

    Edit:

    I have also asked about this on Anthrogenica:

    http://www.anthrogenica.com/showthre...l=1#post104848

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    This 1847 map shows huge inland areas as Kvenish majority
    Tomenable, I do not know if I have missed something important because I just looked at the FamilyTree map, but why do you think that Rurikid line comes from that strip of land between Norway and Sweden?

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    I don't say it comes from that particular "strip of land", I say it comes from ethnic Kvens who were living there.

    And Kvenish-inhabited territory was actually bigger before expansion of Swedish settlers.

    The map shows situation as it was in 1847 (not 847!). In 1847 Kvens lived between Swedes and Norwegians, extending almost as far south as Skagerrak and Kattegat, while in the east reaching the coasts of the Gulf of Bothnia - if we believe that map.

    One thousand years earlier Kvenish-inhabited territory was even larger than at that time.

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    Quote Originally Posted by Petter
    the fact that there is an N which is unique to Sweden shows that it is a very old haplogroup in Europe.
    No - it shows that a person with N1c migrated across (or around) the Baltic Sea into Sweden, and established a clan there. Rurikid branch of N1c is not "very old" at all, it is actually quite young, because it is downstream from L550 subclade.

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    1 out of 1 members found this post helpful.
    it shows that a person with N1c migrated across (or around) the Baltic Sea into Sweden, and established a clan there
    Wikipedia refers to a paper by Jaakko Häkkinen and observes that Rurik's N1c1 haplotype possesses the distinctive value DYS390=23, also rarely found in Scandinavia, but with the closest relatives of the Rurikid haplotype being found in coastal Finland, among the Swedish-speaking Finns.

    I have already before noted that this could be taken as refering to the origin of this line in coastal Finland; and I do not think that coastal Swedish-speaking Finns must have come from Sweden as N1c must in any case be older in Baltic area than in Sweden and if there are today Rurikids living in Sweden, can we really be sure that their ancestors were there before Rurik was born.

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    Ethnic group
    Celtiberian
    Country: Spain



    Why Galicia? as the celtiberic Galicia... Someone knew the answer... It should be studied.

    https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Kingdo...%80%93Volhynia

    Why there are two Iberias. One is spain-portugal an the other the caucasus Iberia. Don't you feel the need to investigate? I did.

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