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Thread: The spread of various subclades of J2 from the Middle East towards Europe

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    The spread of various subclades of J2 from the Middle East towards Europe

    I believe that haplogroup J2a3b (M-67) was spread to north-central Italy via the Caucasus region, at low levels, of course. The highest global concentration of J-M67 takes place in Georgia, Azerbaijan and Armenia. The only other comparable region ( still having less J2a3b than the aforementioned countries of course) is north-central Italy. It is my belief that J2a3b originated in the Caucasus region and was subsequently spread to north-central Italy by the Etruscans, a people's that almost certainly had a substratum of M-67 within them. In fact, both culturally and linguistically, I have always associated the Etruscans to Armenians to a certain degree. Then there is our beloved J2a3b1 also known as M-92. To me, it is a "son" of the M67 lineage, having originated after it. It is found only in south-central Italy ( with higher frequencies as you descend south) and of course, in western Anatolia ( turkey). This solidifies a definite link between southern Italians and ANATOLIANS....oddly though, the area once inhabited by the Lydians ( western turkey) , is a hotspot for M-92 , placing them closer to southern and not north-central Italians. Seemingly although, this area where Etruria was set-up, in Tuscany ( north-central) is well within the M-67 italian hotspot, thus, in my opinion, placing the "etrurians" much closer to ancient Caucasian people's ( modern day Georgians, Armenians, Azeris) than to Turks ( all of this, at low frequencies, of course.) Then there is J2b, known as M-12 or J-M102. It has a definite global hot-spot in the extreme southern Balkans ( most notably Greece, albania, parts of Macedonia) where it originated. It spread to southern Italy at lower levels with the establishment of magna Grecia cities in southern Italy, along with other forms of j2. To me, J2b is characteristically Greco-Albanian and then subsequently spread out to a few regions from there. Then we have J2b1, known as M-205. It is an extremely low level percentage offshoot of its father J2b and, oddly enough, is only really found at low percentages (3% or so) on a skinny stretch of the western coast of Asia Minor and at even lower percentages in isolated regions of eastern Greece and southern Bulgaria and Thrace. To me, it represents some of the Greeks that established themselves in colonies off of western turkey ( Miletus, Halicarnassus etc.) where this sub-subclade probably originated. Note that even though J-M92 is found in western Anatolia, not to far from this stretch of coast where J2b1 is found, no J2b1 is present in Italy ( whereas M-92 is) and much MUCH lower levels of M-92 are found in Greece than in either southern Italy or western turkey. Feel free to debate and further discuss this fascinating topic! : )

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    Sounds good, i would like to do it properly but im stil in the spam protection program for new users.

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    Yes, I think u did good job on J2. I would like to add that J2b1 is really rare and according to me come from one of the horse warriors.
    I myself am a J2a4h or J-M530, it is observed at 2.4% in Bulgaria(more in the West and Central parts also the Bulgarian region called Macedonia,now situated in Greece and FYROM), Iran at about 6% for the whole of the country , Zoroastrians more,Turkey mostly in the west it is for Turkey around 4% and it is also found at about 4% in Italy,Ashkenazy Jews also have some which tribe do u think brought it in Bulgaria it is pretty old so it should have been there before the time of Christs, so I guessed it might have been the Persians or maybe one of the ancient Greeks tribes :)

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    Thank you for agreeing with me yaan! : ) for what concerns your particular subclade of J2a, the M530 lineage, it is extremely rare. To me, it originated in Iran. Its highest frequency is in eastern Iran, particularly in the Yazd region/province where it owns slightly over 17% of males there. It's highest diversities/variances are found in the south and north of Iran, suggesting possible points of origin. Even at it's highest frequencies this subclade is rarer but studies successively show that the frequencies % are highest towards eastern iranian peninsula. You are a good example of middle eastern people's ( rare peninsular iranians in your case) moving into Europe and, into a Bulgarian as is your case.
    Last edited by adamo; 27-04-13 at 03:19.

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    Just to give you some zeksy statistics on this , some 12% of the Gheshmi people of hormozgan province Iran are M530, not to mention about 10% of mazandarani from Iran's Mazandaran province. 11% of Assyrians and 16% of zoroastrians from Tehran province, have it, not to mention 17% of Yazd province Persians and nearly 18% of Yazd self-named "Zoroastrianism", these % are very much a global high for your subclade. You might want to do more research on these particular regions of the iranian plateau! : ) found in different parts of north/south/central Iran provinces at low %. It seems to have higher levels in Zoroastrianism, both in Tehran and the big yazd province, but it can also be found in Tehran Assyrians and yazd region Persians as well.

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    Quote Originally Posted by adamo View Post
    Just to give you some zeksy statistics on this , some 12% of the Gheshmi people of hormozgan province Iran are M530, not to mention about 10% of mazandarani from Iran's Mazandaran province. 11% of Assyrians and 16% of zoroastrians from Tehran province, have it, not to mention 17% of Yazd province Persians and nearly 18% of Yazd self-named "Zoroastrianism", these % are very much a global high for your subclade. You might want to do more research on these particular regions of the iranian plateau! : ) found in different parts of north/south/central Iran provinces at low %. It seems to have higher levels in Zoroastrianism, both in Tehran and the big yazd province, but it can also be found in Tehran Assyrians and yazd region Persians as well.
    Yes, but in Bulgaria it is one of the most common J2. We have 3.8% J2b2(local Balkan group) and 2.4 % J2a4h, maybe the Bulgars

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    The highest frequency and diversity point to Iran, highest diversity peaks (2) in north and southern Iran, highest frequency, central Iran.

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    Quote Originally Posted by adamo View Post
    The highest frequency and diversity point to Iran, highest diversity peaks (2) in north and southern Iran, highest frequency, central Iran.
    Yes, I have the paper on Iran, really good one. I do not know why here J2 is not also called Iranian, it is together with R1a the main thing in Iranic peoples. My matches are 2 Polish Jews,1 Russian Jew, 1 Russian,a bunch of Italians,1German Swiss, 1 Czech,2 Germans from Bavaria, Belgium guy(I think Dutch speaking), 2 English, 1 Irish, 1 Scottish, 1 Hungarian from Romania, 1 Hungarian.
    Do u agree with me that here J2 should be divided on the tables in J2a and J2b, I mean we do not say R1 we say R1a and R1b we do not say I, we say I1 and I2a and I2b so

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    Yes I agree on the J2a/J2b divisions of father J2, this is obvious. The main element in Iranian people's is haplogroup J, J2 in particular at 30% of iranian males not R1a or any "R" lineage. It's interesting to see who you cluster with, all probably exceptions in their countries overall lolll. But as I mentioned the diversity weight of this subclade points undeniably towards northern and southern Iran as an origin point.

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    What fascinates me most is the J2a-M67 subclade, its found in 50-60% of Chechen males, 20% of Georgians and 10% of north-central Italians and armenians.......anyone else see a link between Etruscans and Caucasus people's?

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    Quote Originally Posted by adamo View Post
    What fascinates me most is the J2a-M67 subclade, its found in 50-60% of Chechen males, 20% of Georgians and 10% of north-central Italians and armenians.......anyone else see a link between Etruscans and Caucasus people's?
    It is possible that J2 and R1b share some common history in parts of southern europe. R1b is important HG in Armenia. Possible candidates are Bell Beakers or Etruscans or other. Dinaric skulls with flat occiput were typical for Bell Beaker skeletons, common in today Armenia, but not so much in Western Europe anymore, but still strong in Italy and Balkans today. Even the Celts could have a partial ancestry link to the Caucasus. The dinaric element was considered as part of the Celts by old anthropologists, and dinaric types were frequent among ancient Romans too.

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    What happened is that some J2 found in the Middle East migrated during the Neolithic and at later times towards certain European Mediterranean areas. So there is a substratum of middle eastern blood in Greece, Italy, Sicily, Crete etc. Blood that is found at much higher frequencies today in Turks, Lebanese, Iraqis, Armenians, Azeris, Iranians etc. As for what explains. The 30% R1b hotspot in Armenia, it was in my belief, brought there by the Germanic Galatians, southern French Gallic tribes that migrated in small bands towards the Balkans, passing Macedonia, Bulgaria and Thrace and even crossing into central Anatolia (turkey) where it is well-documented that they set up Galatia. Some elements of these much later movements of germanics into the Middle East via the Balkans after the fall of Alexander the Great ( Gauls sacked Delphi, in Greece for example) and then they set up in parts of central turkey and as far as, but no further than, Armenia, which was more heavily affected. In fact, in ancient times, Armenia was considered as the throne of the Phrygian, pelasgian, Etruscan and Thracian race, that brought J2 to certain select parts of Mediterranean Europe. So what better way to get back at them for their European foothold they gained than for stronger Celtic warriors to set up shop directly on their homeland.

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    Quote Originally Posted by adamo View Post
    What happened is that some J2 found in the Middle East migrated during the Neolithic and at later times towards certain European Mediterranean areas. So there is a substratum of middle eastern blood in Greece, Italy, Sicily, Crete etc. Blood that is found at much higher frequencies today in Turks, Lebanese, Iraqis, Armenians, Azeris, Iranians etc. As for what explains. The 30% R1b hotspot in Armenia, it was in my belief, brought there by the Germanic Galatians, southern French Gallic tribes that migrated in small bands towards the Balkans, passing Macedonia, Bulgaria and Thrace and even crossing into central Anatolia (turkey) where it is well-documented that they set up Galatia. Some elements of these much later movements of germanics into the Middle East via the Balkans after the fall of Alexander the Great ( Gauls sacked Delphi, in Greece for example) and then they set up in parts of central turkey and as far as, but no further than, Armenia, which was more heavily affected. In fact, in ancient times, Armenia was considered as the throne of the Phrygian, pelasgian, Etruscan and Thracian race, that brought J2 to certain select parts of Mediterranean Europe. So what better way to get back at them for their European foothold they gained than for stronger Celtic warriors to set up shop directly on their homeland.
    The thing is that u think that R1b is one,while it is 5 or more different things, that come from different places at a different time with different times. The R1b big type in Balkan,Turkey and Armenia is 70-80% even more of the R1b in these places and it is totally different than R1b in Western Europe. It is called R1-L23.
    So it is like this R1 in Central Asia, then one branch goes to Anadolia(todays Turkey and Armenia) and there is born R1b- R1- L23 . This is the R1b in Armenians, Turks, Lebanese, Bulgarians(like 50% of our R1b),Albanians, Romanians(mostly),Serbs(most), Greeks etc . Together with J2b2 and E-V13 this was the Thrachians, Armenians, Hellenics etc.etc. It has nothing to do with Germanics and the R1b road is Central Asia-Armenia-Anadolia-Balkan-Central Europe-Western Europe, not the other way around. This R1b has nothing to do with Germanics or Celtic people.
    R1b and J2 and E-V13 are axectly as European, but in the places where there was civilization there is less R1b and R1a , and in Western and Northern Europe, there was nothing so when the New R1b and R1a people went there they were more or less tghe only people.
    Oldest in Europe I1, I2a,I2b
    Second oldest E-V13, G2a, J2b2, N1c , R1b-R1 L 23 ,various R1a
    Newest in Europe majority of the R1b

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    Also Germanics is not R1b, but I2b and I1 and some types of R1b just like Slavic is not R1a but I2a, some kinds of R1a,N1c,E-V13,I1 depending on the tribes

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    I agree that L23 is a specific branch that arrived from Central Asia through the Caucasus to all the countries you mentioned, it dominates there. But as for M269, it crossed Russia into Eastern Europe and then migrated to its current position in Western Europe. The overall % of L23 in these oountries is high but the total R1b is much lower than Western Europe which is dominated by the M269 branch. Armenians where not J2b2, they where J2a and where not E-V13, nor should they be classified as genetically hellenics. Also, you say that when the R1b and R1a men reached Northern Europe nobody was there, which makes no sense, as you stated the men of I1 have been in Europe the longest as attributed to the gravettian culture. Also you say germanics where not R1b but predominantly I2b and I1, which in the case of I2b is nonsense, considering it controls a maximum of 10% of German males only in small locales and not even on a national level. I1 is certainly present in Germany but its not the dominant haplogroup, as R1b is. Then you try to negate a link between R1a and Slavic populations, instead pointing out elements that Slavs incorporated into their ethnic groups as they migrated further into south/eastern/central Europe (E-V13, I2a), even saying that some kinds of N1c are originally Slavic.....I disagree.

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    I2b IS Germanic, but its found at very low frequencies even in its German "high levels". Armenians where not are not E-V13 or even any form of E at all.

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    Quote Originally Posted by adamo View Post
    I agree that L23 is a specific branch that arrived from Central Asia through the Caucasus to all the countries you mentioned, it dominates there. But as for M269, it crossed Russia into Eastern Europe and then migrated to its current position in Western Europe. The overall % of L23 in these oountries is high but the total R1b is much lower than Western Europe which is dominated by the M269 branch. Armenians where not J2b2, they where J2a and where not E-V13, nor should they be classified as genetically hellenics. Also, you say that when the R1b and R1a men reached Northern Europe nobody was there, which makes no sense, as you stated the men of I1 have been in Europe the longest as attributed to the gravettian culture. Also you say germanics where not R1b but predominantly I2b and I1, which in the case of I2b is nonsense, considering it controls a maximum of 10% of German males only in small locales and not even on a national level. I1 is certainly present in Germany but its not the dominant haplogroup, as R1b is. Then you try to negate a link between R1a and Slavic populations, instead pointing out elements that Slavs incorporated into their ethnic groups as they migrated further into south/eastern/central Europe (E-V13, I2a), even saying that some kinds of N1c are originally Slavic.....I disagree.
    1. I1 and I2b are the original Germanic things, which after mixture with R1b and R1a subclades gave birth to Germanics
    2. I2a and R1a are the original Slav things, which after mixture with I1,N1c and E-V13 gave birth to Slavs
    3. Do not look at % now, it is not important at all % channges all the time, warriors die, male produce daughhters, epidepics ,wars etc etc
    4. R1b in the West is of various origin so u think 60 R1b no it is wrong, it is 12 % Celtic R1b, then 20% Germanic R1b etc.etc
    5. In Germany and The Netherlands was nobody, not in Scandianvia which was full of N1c,I1 and I2b

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    Armenians were J2a/R1b people with quite a lot I2 and J1!
    I said Thrachians were R1b- L23,E-V13 and J2b2 people , Hellenics were also more or less the same with less E-V13 I guess

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    According to me Indo-Europeans brought Y-DNA haplogroup J2 (alongside with R1b of course) into Europe.

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    Toga that is wrong. Mesopotamian style people's brought J2a into Europe with them. Greeks had much E-V13, the Armenians didn't and still don't have E-V13. I don't thnk J2a came with R1b into Europe, or else we would find L-23 in high numbers in Italy, and what explains the high L-23 in Russia, a non-J2 country? Or its high frequency in Poland? Did it also arrive there, via the middle eastern? Doubt it.

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    ? I don't understand you? There's very little R1b in Russia and mostly in Turkic speaking peoples. I believe that Indo-European speakers that brought R1b with them first settled down somewhere around Bulgaria (Central Eastern Europe, not far from the Black Sea) and not in Italia. in that area there's also lots of J2. People that borught R1b to Italia were not exactly the same immigrants from the Near East that settled down in southeast Europe.

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    I never said r1b first set up in Italy for gods sake lol. End of debate for me too much room for misinterpretation

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    Some of J2 came also into Europe with Iranic R1a folks. According to me the original Iranic speakers were R1a, J2, G +some other Middle Eastern haplogroups. Later this Iranic people (that migrated into Europe from Persian Plateau via Central Asia corridor) mixed too much with East European tribes *women) and absorbed European haplogroups and aDNA. Later they were totally assimilated by the natives of Europe, they lost their Iranic language and vanished.

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    Quote Originally Posted by adamo View Post
    I never said r1b first set up in Italy for gods sake lol. End of debate for me too much room for misinterpretation
    ?? Have you seen how much J2 there's in Bulgaria and Ukraine?? There's more J2 in both countries than R1b...

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    Iran is a strange place lol I wonder what subclade of R1a they have at 15-20%. I think it's a later addition to Iran because if Iranians brought j2 into Europe I sure don't see the iranic R1a genetic trail. There's not much J2 In Ukraine, Bulgaria can have 20% frequencies but J2 in Ukraine of 20% is very regional influence, not so much on a national level.

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