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Thread: Jewish people, where they are from?

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    Jewish people, where they are from?

    Have we ever discussed here about Khazaria, the Eastern European state, and its Khazar rulers that converted to Judaism in the VIII century?

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    The khazars where a Turkic people, is it jews you want to know about or khazars.....? There are varying accounts on the khazars, some say that when their empire collapsed under the pressure from Attila and his Huns and the Black Death, they moved towards Europe becoming today's Ashkenazi Jews, which makes sense since this is certainly the road they traveled from the Middle East to Europe, through the Caucasus. Some maintain that they where a Turkic people, but this is contradictory to the fact that all of khazars a converted to Judaism. As for the origins of Jews, they originally came from the Levantine coast, from a country called Israel, as you may know. The Jews are no "special" or very "homogenous" race as many may think, their just another middle eastern amalgamy of J1 , J2 , E3b and some are R1a or R1b. Regardless of wether it is J1 or J2 about 35-45% of Jewish men are haplogroup J, indicative of middle eastern origins. Another 20-30% are north-African E3b. 10-15 maybe 20% of them are R1b or R1a , European Jews in particular ( Sephardic and Ashkenazi) may have been subjected to Germanic/European blood. There are many different old Jewish communities known as "diasporas" that left Judah and Israel at different times during history due to persecutions or for other reasons. These communities can slightly/moderately differ in their genetic compositions depending on where they moved and which people's they where subjected to. There are also kurdish Jews, Mizrahim jews ( middle-eastern, etc) the Ashkenazi Jews moved from the Caucasus into east-central Europe long ago, the Sephardic Jews somehow reached Iberia (Spain/Portugal) there are also Jews in Yemen etc. predominantly they are a patrilineal amalgamy of J1, J2, E3b and sometimes European elements (R1a/1b) and/or rarer haplogroups, such as G for example ( at lower levels). Their genetic admixture thus indicates a probable middle eastern/ North African mix with later added European blood in certain diaspora communities.

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    Quote Originally Posted by adamo View Post
    khazars.....moved towards Europe becoming today's Ashkenazi Jews, which makes sense
    As about 95% of world's Jewry are Ashkenazi Jews with origins in the Khazar state, only a minority of modern Jews are linked genetically to the ancient "biblical" Jews. According to an Israeli professor Shlomo Sand, the original Jewish genes can be found in the population of modern Palestinians, who after the collapse of the Jewish state converted themselves to a Muslim faith. The mass migration of Jews from Jerusalem after the collapse of Jewish state in the 1st century is only a myth without any historical support.

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    1 out of 1 members found this post helpful.
    no. Palestines are the biblical philistines, or Peleset sub-type of sea people's that migrated out of the Aegean and to the southern levant coast near Israel, they are the philistines of " David and Goliath". With 35-45% of all Jewish men being either major group of hg J, most modern Jews are linked to ancient biblical Jews. This applies for Ashkenazi, Sephardic and middle eastern Jews. Also some hg E3b is also present at appreciable frequencies in Jews. Maternally, haplogroup K has also been linked to Jewish women. Mass migrations of Jews are no myth, there are ancient Jewish communities all across the Middle East ( outside of Israel) Europe and north-Africa. These "diasporas" had different times of movement, some as late as the medieval times/ Middle Ages. "Jewish genes can be found in Palestinians"....if you're referring to haplogroup J, then "Jewish" genes can be found in much more than just Palestine, trust me lollllll. Jewish males have many points of origin as I stated in my last post, although their dominant genetic element is the J combo ( J1+J2). Haplogroup E3b is a close runner-up and certain R1a/R1b elements can also be found depending on which particular "diaspora" we are referring to with the European Jews, obviously, having higher of these elements.

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    2 out of 2 members found this post helpful.
    if we're talking broadly about hg such as J1, J2, E1b1b, then we're talking about afro-semitic speakers, which is the whole north-africa and most of middle-east since the stone-age. It includes civilizations such as Carthage, Egypt, Caananites, Phoenicia, Arabs, Sarachens, Moors, turks etc. However, mass migrations of Israelites at various points in history are not a myth.

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    Correct although J originated strictly in the Middle East whereas E originated in Africa, but you can find some J1 especially in certain North African countries and some E3b in the Middle East.

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    Quote Originally Posted by kamani View Post
    mass migrations of Israelites at various points in history are not a myth.
    You disagree then with Professor Shlomo Sand. Can you support your thesis statement?

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    1 out of 1 members found this post helpful.
    It's simply a well known-fact, that Jews where often displaced or migrated themselves, throughout history. The very first "exodus" if you will, was that caused by the assyrians in 722 B.C. when their king, Shalmaneser V conquered northern Israel and many jews where deported to parts of Medea and Persia. Then came the "Babylonian" exiles. In 600 B.C. ( about 2600 years ago) the Babylonias conquered Judea, destroyed the Jewish first temple and exiled the Jews to the city of Babylon, where they where allowed to live as a unified community. A second branch of Jews fled towards Egypt, setting up near the Nile, a decision which in time they would greatly regret. Already by about 600-550 B.C. There where Jewish communities in 3 main locales : Egypt, The city of Babylon and other few middle eastern cities and within Judea itself, modern day Israel. When the Persian empire came to rule under Cyrus circa 540 B.C., he gave the Jews the option to return "en masse" to Judea. Most of the Babylonian Jews decided to stay in Babylon, creating the Mizrahim community of Jews ( Iraqi Jews, Kurdish Jews, iranian Jews etc.) or "middle eastern Jews" outside of Judea of course, where there where still Jews established even there. In 66 B.C., when the Jews of Judaea where governed by the Romans, the "Jewish-Roman" war took place, leading to the destruction of the second temple. Jerusalem was destroyed ad Jews where forbidden to live there. Fast forward to the Middle Ages and there where Ashkenazi Jews established in east-central Europe, Sephardic Jews in Spain/Portugal that also some migrated to north-Africa (Moroccan Jews), the other earlier mentioned communities etc. there are even Yemenite Jews, certain Jewish communities in the Horn of Africa,etc. with all this direct historic and genetic evidence, and the well known presence of long established Jewish communities across Europe, how can one call the presence of Jews out of Israel a "myth"? Have you never heard of Ashkenazi Jews and the ww2 holocaust?
    Last edited by adamo; 27-04-13 at 15:26.

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    1 out of 1 members found this post helpful.
    We don't really know their true origin as the Bible is suspect in promoting a certain constructed history. There was a lot of borrowing from the Amorites who were attacked by the Sea Peoples. Ugarit was under seige with a young Hammarabi pleading for assistance from the Hittites. Many passages in the Bible originate from the Ras Shamra tablets such as the "Prophet Isaiah on Lucifer".

    http://ptm.org/uni/QandA/Fundamental.htm

    http://bible.org/seriespage/isaiah-14

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    1 out of 1 members found this post helpful.
    Yes but this "constructed history" that you refer to is supported by the genetic results which don't lie. 35-45% of Jewish males belong to the J lineage. That's significant middle eastern blood rivalling modern day Iran, or almost as much as Lebanon or turkey, for example. Jews fit in very well with their neighbouring middle eastern populations.

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    According to the Bible Abraham around 1200 or 1500 BC was a shepherd so there were no Jews before that. R1b people were pastorialists and roamed around Middle East, Anatolia and Balkans. Of course, many people may have taken up shepherding as there was meat on the hooves - no need for hunting as all that is needed is feed the goats on pasture. The shepherds were a nuisance to the Babylonians till the Amorites who were shepherds under Hammarabi took over Babylon. These shepherd people might be the precursors to the Jews as the Ten Commandments come from the 'Hammarabi Code'. Around this time the phenomenon of the Sea Peoples occurred. Among the Sea Peoples who were killed were a few thousand circumcised dead when they attacked Egypt. The desert people were circumcised as sand getting into sensitive genital parts may have led to circumcision. The Sea Peoples were Haplogroup I, G and E driven out of Europe or from Anatolia. The I and G people may have stayed mainly in Anatolia but the E people may have joined the J people in settling in the Levant. J people originating from Arabia. Thus you have these people in the region of today's Israel. When Judaism arose these were the people J, E, R1b and maybe even some G. Of course no tribe is purely of a certain Haplogroup as families have boys and girls who knows what boys may be attracted by the girls and also tribes form confederation against a common enemy. There is going to be mingling.

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    0 out of 1 members found this post helpful.
    So false. The sea people's where E, G and ...I? Driven out of Europe? Excuse me, but E didn't arrive in the Middle East via Europe, it arrived from North Africa to the levant. R1b men where pastoralists that roamed around the Middle East Anatolia and Balkans? Where did you put this trash information in your brain? At what point? 4,000 years ago, the men of R1b where either near or in the Iberian refuge, not roaming the Middle East or the Balkans, I don't even think they ever reached the Balkans unless in low percentages very late in the game, in very recent times but R1b never even passed there. And thanks for basically re-saying what I said about the J,E,R1b and all that. And the sea people's had an overwhelming middle-eastern substratum they where not I or R1b, more like J2 predominance with minor T,E,G,J1 elements. Also you state that sea people's where circumcised as they where desert people's etc. , which is correct they where J2 predominance. The sea people's where from the Middle East and arrived in Europe from where they may have subsequently attacked/competed with North Africans/middle easterners that stayed in North Africa or the Middle East; they where not a European people's expelled from Europe, quite to the contrary.

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    Considering you are 19 years old and teenagers tend to know it all. I will leave it to you to find out the truth.

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    Quote Originally Posted by al-kochol View Post
    You disagree then with Professor Shlomo Sand. Can you support your thesis statement?
    I found this in wikipedia, it seems the Khazar theory died a long time ago:
    Genetic studies on Ashkenazi Jewry

    A 1999 study by Hammer et al., published in the Proceedings of the United States National Academy of Sciences compared the Y chromosomes of Ashkenazi, Roman, North African, Kurdish, Near Eastern, Yemenite, and Ethiopian Jews with 16 non-Jewish groups from similar geographic locations. It found that "Despite their long-term residence in different countries and isolation from one another, most Jewish populations were not significantly different from one another at the genetic level... The results support the hypothesis that the paternal gene pools of Jewish communities from Europe, North Africa, and the Middle East descended from a common Middle Eastern ancestral population, and suggest that most Jewish communities have remained relatively isolated from neighboring non-Jewish communities during and after the Diaspora."[138] According to Nicholas Wade "The results accord with Jewish history and tradition and refute theories like those holding that Jewish communities consist mostly of converts from other faiths, or that they are descended from the Khazars, a medieval Turkish tribe that adopted Judaism."[139]

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    The khazars being pure Jews is probably myth, but one can't deny the presence of Jewish diaspora groups all across Europe, parts of Middle East+north Africa etc.

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    Quote Originally Posted by adamo View Post
    It's simply a well known-fact...
    It is also a very well known fact that the father of history Herodotus, who travelled extensively through the whole known to him world (from Egypt to Scythia) in the 5th century BC, did not notice any Jews there.

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    Quote Originally Posted by kamani View Post
    I found this in wikipedia, it seems the Khazar theory died a long time ago
    Jewish geneticists and historians obviously do not like the truth about Khazars and are trying to kill the Khazar theory of the origin of Ashkenazi Jews. Almost all today's Jews are Ashkenazi Jews. How then can there be a domination of J over R1a?

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    1 out of 1 members found this post helpful.
    Because they came from the the middle-east.In virtually EVERY Jewish community J dominates over any R1 lineage. By herodotus's time, Jews where in various parts of the Middle East, Judaea itself and Egypt.

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    Quote Originally Posted by adamo View Post
    Because they came from the the middle-east.In virtually EVERY Jewish community J dominates over any R1 lineage. By herodotus's time, Jews where in various parts of the Middle East, Judaea itself and Egypt.
    1 million Jews re-settled to Israel from the USSR and later Ukraine and Russia definitely did not carry the J stamp. Same applies to the Polish Jews. They often are tall, red haired and blue eyed, as Khazars incorporated into their Jewish khaganate Slavic tribes (such as Kievan Polans), as well as some Vikings (or Ruthenians, if you apply a Greek name to them).

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    Quote Originally Posted by al-kochol View Post
    Jewish khaganate .
    Are we creating new history here, lol. Maybe too much of alkochol?
    Be wary of people who tend to glorify the past, underestimate the present, and demonize the future.

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    Yes 1 million JEWS resettled Israel from Russia, Ukraine etc. but they had originally come from the Middle East anyways, they're patrilineal and matrilineal lines may have been slightly/ moderately altered due to the people's they where exposed to but none the less they remain Jews, both culturally and predominantly genetically also. And yes even the Russian Jews have a lot of J "stamp", yes most European Ashkenazi Jews ( 40% if not slightly more) males DO have the J haplogroup.

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    Quote Originally Posted by LeBrok View Post
    Are we creating new history here, lol. Maybe too much of alkochol?
    You obviously don't know what "kochol" means in Polish

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    If its not a synonym for vodka, we don't care. Lol I'm joking what is it

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    Quote Originally Posted by al-kochol View Post
    You obviously don't know what "kochol" means in Polish
    I don't know, please enlighten me.

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    Quote Originally Posted by al-kochol View Post
    As about 95% of world's Jewry are Ashkenazi Jews with origins in the Khazar state, only a minority of modern Jews are linked genetically to the ancient "biblical" Jews. According to an Israeli professor Shlomo Sand, the original Jewish genes can be found in the population of modern Palestinians, who after the collapse of the Jewish state converted themselves to a Muslim faith. The mass migration of Jews from Jerusalem after the collapse of Jewish state in the 1st century is only a myth without any historical support.
    Your figures are outdated.

    In 1939, over 90pc of the World's Jews were Ashkenazi.

    Today the figure is much less, with 26pc being non-Ashkenazi, mostly Mizrahi Jews from Muslim countries, but also Sephardi Jews in the narrowest sense (Spanish and Portuguese descent).

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