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Thread: Jewish people, where they are from?

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    1 out of 1 members found this post helpful.
    Even European Jews are high in J patrilineally, STILL linking them to their middle eastern biblical roots.

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    Quote Originally Posted by adamo View Post
    Even European Jews are high in J patrilineally, STILL linking them to their middle eastern biblical roots.
    What do you mean under European Jews? Sephardim from Western Europe or Ashkenazim from Middle & Eastern Europe?

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    Both of them Sephardic ad AshkenaziAshkenazi

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    1 out of 1 members found this post helpful.
    This study http://www.heritagedaily.com/2013/01...mber_207854681 supports the Khazarian hypothesis.

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    1 out of 1 members found this post helpful.
    In the Bible the world ashkenaz covered scythian.

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    1 out of 1 members found this post helpful.
    Quote Originally Posted by Grubbe View Post
    This study supports the Khazarian hypothesis.
    Behar et al (2013) "No Evidence from Genome-Wide Data of a Khazar Origin for the Ashkenazi Jews" which I can't link due to low post count but is easily searchable OTOH doesn't support that hypothesis. Ashkenazi and other Jewish groups share most IBD with each other.

    IBD also seems a good way to differentiate Ashkenazi Jews from South Italians and Sicilians which may be hard to do with PCA's.

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    Quote Originally Posted by Grubbe View Post
    This study http://www.heritagedaily.com/2013/01...mber_207854681 supports the Khazarian hypothesis.
    It actually doesn't, as outlandish as this "study" is, Elhaik still couldn't deny the fact that Jews have Semitic origins.
    Of course, the whole study is absolute nonsense, the methodology is illegitimate and the paper isn't peer-reviewed... Without even mentionning the fact that it's riddled with grotesque mistakes and inaccuracies (and that, as Salbrox pointed out, it was shattered by a recent study authored by Behar et al).

    Now on topic: The Khazar theory has suffered a very painful death at the hands of population genetics. Indeed western Jews (Ashkenazim, Sephardim & Syrian Jews form a single cluster) plot squarely in the Eastern Mediterranean between Cypriots and mainland Greeks.
    Taking mtDNA, Y-DNA & autosomal DNA Jews seem to be mostly of Eastern Mediterranean & North Levantine extraction.

    Anyone who says otherwise or spews fancy claims such as "Jews are Turkic steppe nomads" or "Jews are Europeans" is either deluding himself in denial of facts & reality or making fun of your sorry @ss.

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    1 out of 1 members found this post helpful.
    Quote Originally Posted by Semitic Duwa View Post
    It actually doesn't, as outlandish as this "study" is, Elhaik still couldn't deny the fact that Jews have Semitic origins.
    Of course, the whole study is absolute nonsense, the methodology is illegitimate and the paper isn't peer-reviewed... Without even mentionning the fact that it's riddled with grotesque mistakes and inaccuracies (and that, as Salbrox pointed out, it was shattered by a recent study authored by Behar et al).

    Now on topic: The Khazar theory has suffered a very painful death at the hands of population genetics. Indeed western Jews (Ashkenazim, Sephardim & Syrian Jews form a single cluster) plot squarely in the Eastern Mediterranean between Cypriots and mainland Greeks.
    Taking mtDNA, Y-DNA & autosomal DNA Jews seem to be mostly of Eastern Mediterranean & North Levantine extraction.

    Anyone who says otherwise or spews fancy claims such as "Jews are Turkic steppe nomads" or "Jews are Europeans" is either deluding himself in denial of facts & reality or making fun of your sorry @ss.

    Ahhh.... I'm not entirely sure this is true, Ashkenazis don't plot in the Eastern Mediterranean between Cypriots and Mainland Greeks, I always plot in Southern Italy or in the Tyrrhenian Sea (west of mainland Italy). BTW, saying Ashkenazi Jews aren't European isn't entirely accurate either, Behar's recent study (2013) concluded that after Sephardi and North African Jews, Ashkenazis share closest genetic similarities with Mediterranean Europeans from Italy (Sicily, Abruzzo, Tuscany), Greece and Cyprus, Ashkenazis (and Sephardis) according to that study have something called K5, and if that K5 is removed then Ashkenazis shift from Italians and Greeks to the Druze and Samaritans, according to Behar's study that K5 presence in Ashkenazis and Sephardis suggests admixture with Non Jewish Europeans. Behar also concluded that Ashkenazi Jews derive their ancestry from Middle Eastern and European populations, so saying "Jews are Turkic steppe nomads" may be quite inaccurate, but saying "Jews are Europeans" isn't entirely inaccurate, genetically speaking and linguistically speaking, considering the fact that the Ashkenazi language is Yiddish, an Indo European High German language with it's main origin being in the Rhineland (being derived from old high German with minor Aramaic and Hebrew contributions). Here's the link of Behar's study, you may want to reexamine it.

    Link: http://digitalcommons.wayne.edu/cgi/...biol_preprints

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    3 out of 3 members found this post helpful.
    Quote Originally Posted by John Doe View Post
    Ahhh.... I'm not entirely sure this is true, Ashkenazis don't plot in the Eastern Mediterranean between Cypriots and Mainland Greeks, I always plot in Southern Italy or in the Tyrrhenian Sea (west of mainland Italy). BTW, saying Ashkenazi Jews aren't European isn't entirely accurate either, Behar's recent study (2013) concluded that after Sephardi and North African Jews, Ashkenazis share closest genetic similarities with Mediterranean Europeans from Italy (Sicily, Abruzzo, Tuscany), Greece and Cyprus, Ashkenazis (and Sephardis) according to that study have something called K5, and if that K5 is removed then Ashkenazis shift from Italians and Greeks to the Druze and Samaritans, according to Behar's study that K5 presence in Ashkenazis and Sephardis suggests admixture with Non Jewish Europeans. Behar also concluded that Ashkenazi Jews derive their ancestry from Middle Eastern and European populations, so saying "Jews are Turkic steppe nomads" may be quite inaccurate, but saying "Jews are Europeans" isn't entirely inaccurate, genetically speaking and linguistically speaking, considering the fact that the Ashkenazi language is Yiddish, an Indo European High German language with it's main origin being in the Rhineland (being derived from old high German with minor Aramaic and Hebrew contributions). Here's the link of Behar's study, you may want to reexamine it.

    Link: http://digitalcommons.wayne.edu/cgi/...biol_preprints
    Sicilians also plot in the Eastern Mediterranean, close to Cretan, Maltese and Aegean islanders (and of course, Ashkenazi Jews).

    The main problem here is your assumption that "European" is a valid label in population genetics.
    But for argument's sake, let's examine the claim... According to Lazaridis et al. 2013, Europeans derive from three ancestral population, Western Hunter-Gatherer (WHG), Early European Farmer (EEF) and Ancient North Eurasian (ANE).
    These are real components, unlike Behar's K5 analysis, since the latter (like all modern-day components) derive from the the aforementionned components.

    This is what the authors had to say about Ashkenazi Jews:

    While our three-way mixture model fits the data for most European populations, two sets of populations are poor fits. First, Sicilians, Maltese and Ashkenazi Jews have EEF estimates beyond the 0-100% interval (SI13) and they cannot be jointly fit with other Europeans (SI12). These populations may have more Near Eastern ancestry than can be explained via EEF admixture (SI13), an inference that is also suggested by the fact that they fall in the gap between European and Near Eastern populations in the PCA of Fig. 1B.
    And this is what the authors say in the sup data (revised version, 2014):

    In Fig. S14.13 we present the range of parameter estimates. Some of these appear quite stable, achieving very similar values regardless of which individual population is fit, while others are less so, with the extreme being the amount of WHG ancestry in "Hunter", ranging from 0 to 95.7%. In that particular case, it was Ashkenazi Jews, Maltese and Sicilians for whom the value was 0, and Sardinians who had the highest 95.7% value.

    [...]

    Fig. S14.14 shows the range of values of x that were compatible with each population. While a wide range of values is consistent with each population, with the exception of some populations which are consistent with no WHG ancestry (Albanian, Ashkenazi_Jew, Greek, Maltese, Sicilian)


    [...]

    In Fig. S14.15 we show populations pairs that are consistent with descent from identical "Farmer" and "Hunter" populations. Sicilians, Ashkenazi Jews and Maltese are only compatible with each other and not with any other populations, consistent with Fig. S14.14 and Table S14.9 which show them to have less or even no WHG ancestry in contrast to other populations. Greeks are compatible with their geographical neighbors in the Balkans (Albanians and Bulgarians) and Italy (Bergamo and Tuscans). Basques andd Spanish_North are incompatible with several populations from Mediterranean and Southeastern Europe. Mediterranean and Southeastern Europeans such as Spanish, Albanians, Bulgarians, Bergamo, Tuscans, Croatians and Hungarians are compatible with each other

    [...]

    We repeated the joint fitting of population pairs, but allowed each population in a pair to descend from a different "Hunter" population, i.e, with a variable WHG/(WHG+ANE) ratio. Almost all population pairs were now successful (264 of 325, Fig. S14.17), with the exception of Ashkenazi Jews, Maltese and Sicilians who could often not be fit with other populations. It appears that these populations have Near Eastern ancestry that is not well-modeled by the 3-population model. This is consistent with their position in Fig.1B, and the results of analysis of SI 17 which do not explicitly model deep population history.

    [...]

    Three other populations produce anomalous estimates in Extended Data Table 2: Ashkenazi Jews, Sicilians, and Maltese. We observed in SI14 that these populations cannot be co-fit in the same admixture graph with most other Europeans, and this suggests that they do not fully trace their ancestry to the same EEF/WHG/ANE elements as most of Europe. Further evidence for this is presented in Extended Data Fig. 4 where all three populations have a negative value of f4(Test, Stuttgart; Loschbour, Chimp), and thus are inconsistent with them being populations of Stuttgart-related ancestry with additional Loschbour-related input, since such populations would have a zero or positive value of the statistic, as most Europeans do. All three populations strongly deviate towards the Near East in Extended Data Fig.4 and Fig. 1B, and it is likely that they possess Near Eastern ancestry that is not mediated via Stuttgart.

    Ashkenazim basically show up as 93.1% EEF and 6.9% ANE with no WHG.

    Now you could argue that EEF is basically a mixture of Basal Eurasian with Near Eastern Mesolithic Hunter Gatherer components and some WHG, but if Ashkenazim truly were "Europeans" you'd also have to explain why they do not exhibit any WHG ancestry in such tests (remember, WHG is a true component, obtained from ancient DNA remains of European Hunter-Gatherers).

    Last but not least.
    The linguistic argument you put forth is self-defeating for two reasons:

    1. Jewish languages merely reflect the host country where a given Jewish community emerged, if we were to follow your logic we could argue for instance that North African Jews (Moroccan and Algerian) are "arabs" or North Africans because they have their own Judeo-Arabic and Judeo-Berber dialects despite the fact that they're ~90% identical to the allegedly "European" Ashkenazim (since they speak Yiddish, which is IE), that they overlap on PCA plots and that they have high IBD sharing.
    2. All Jewish languages were written with the Hebrew alphabet (Ktav Ashuri), the reason for this was their incapacity to transcribe typical Hebrew or Aramaic expressions (such as "Bli 3ayn haRa3", "HaShem Yiqom Damo", "Mazel Tov", etc) using the Latin alphabet.

    So the theory according to which Ashkenazi Jews are francisca-wielding Franks who mixed with Judeans doesn't really work in my book... That's the least I can say!

    And I'm sparing you painful details such as the paucity of "European" markers in Ashkenazi Jews (*cough* just have a look at your own uniparental markers for a start *cough*).

    Now it's quite possible that Jews mixed with Europeans at some point, though the insane absence of WHG surely deals a huge blow to all the theories which portray Jews as "Near Eastern-European hybrids"... In fact, Berber ancestry in NA Jews is far easier to uncover than the alleged European ancestry of AJ (since they cline quite clearly towards NA populations).
    The amount of admixture has yet to be assessed and accurately quantified, and the main problem here is that much of our current assessment is biased towards contemporary populations.
    There's much to bet that the genetic landscape was quite different a thousand years ago, not to say two thousand years ago.

    If I had to guess at this point, I'd say that most of the European admixture in Western Jews (Sephardic and Ashkenazi) was acquired during the early stages of the diaspora in the Eastern Mediterranean (which is why the picture we get is so blurry), think of the Kitos war for instance.

    Behar et al 2013 does a fine job brushing Elhaik's funny theories aside, however it fails miserably in assessing the amount of admixture Jews were subjected to as well as the direction of gene-flow when using IBD segments.

    In the end, the only way to truly quantify the amount of admixture is to obtain genome-wide studies of pre-exilic Judean samples... And even then, we'll still be splitting hairs when we get our hands on such a study (since Western Jews plot squarely in the Eastern Mediterranean).
    Until this is done, I'd take every single claim of "European" ancestry with a few tons of salt if I were you, unless someone manages to explain the absence of the WHG component amongst Ashkenazim of course (which is easier said than done).
    Last edited by Semitic Duwa; 22-06-14 at 04:23.

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    Nicely said Semitic Duva. Is WHG admixture found in some tested Ashkenazi Jews or it is extremely rare phenomenon?
    Be wary of people who tend to glorify the past, underestimate the present, and demonize the future.

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    1 out of 1 members found this post helpful.
    Quote Originally Posted by LeBrok View Post
    Nicely said Semitic Duva. Is WHG admixture found in some tested Ashkenazi Jews or it is extremely rare phenomenon?
    Well, using the custom WHG/EEF/ANE calculator, Ashkenazim tend to show up as ~4% WHG (John Doe scored ~5%) and this is pretty much the same for Maltese results I saw.

    The problem though, is that this test is obsolete for West Asians (who get negative WHG scores) and that the Eastern Mediterranean, Jewish and Iberian (xBasque) scores are outlandish (that is to say, they contradict the study's observations and often exhibit big margins of error in some cases)... Though it works great for other European populations, the same cannot be said for West Asian & E. Med populations.
    MfA at anthrogenica solved this issue by optimising the excel file, he basically ended up replicating the results published in the sup data, this is especially true for Abkhasians, Chechens, Druze, Cypriots, Maltese, Sicilians, Ashkenazim and SE Europeans (Greeks, Albanians, etc)...
    Given the huge paucity of this component (even using the misleading version of this test), labeling Ashkenazim "European" is far-fetched to say the least.
    The lack of WHG is a huge blow to all the theories which propose that Jews are basically half "European" (which is a very vague term in this context).

    I think most of the European ancestry in Western Jews comes from the Eastern Mediterranean when the diaspora was taking form, and there's much to bet that the place looked quite different genes-wise (less WHG, no doubt).

    All in all, if you lean back and take all the evidence we have into account, Western Jews basically look like a typically Eastern Mediterranean-North Levantine population.
    They plot between Mainland Greeks (Thessaly) and Cypriots on PCA plots, which is rather telling since Cypriots might've retained much of the pre-islamic Levant's genetic make-up.

    From an autosomal standpoint, the two main problems with the European admixture of Ashkenazim are:

    1. The lack of WHG
    2. The lack of IBD segments with Germans, Italians or other populations which supposedly provided converts (and we'd still have to figure out the direction of gene-flow)

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    Excellent. So you're saying that the calculator that "MfA" has produced duplicates the Lazaridis results for the populations whose averages were published in the study?

    Is there a link to a site that would show those population averages using this method? Also, is there a link to a site where interested people could run their 23andme data through his calculator?

    Thanks.

    (There were a lot of discussions about this at 23andme, and a recognition by some that these theories of partial European ancestry could not account for the fact that there was no observable genetic flow from Italians or Germans into the Ashkenazi gene pool.)


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    Quote Originally Posted by Semitic Duwa View Post
    Well, using the custom WHG/EEF/ANE calculator, Ashkenazim tend to show up as ~4% WHG (John Doe scored ~5%) and this is pretty much the same for Maltese results I saw.

    The problem though, is that this test is obsolete for West Asians (who get negative WHG scores) and that the Eastern Mediterranean, Jewish and Iberian (xBasque) scores are outlandish (that is to say, they contradict the study's observations and often exhibit big margins of error in some cases)... Though it works great for other European populations, the same cannot be said for West Asian & E. Med populations.
    MfA at anthrogenica solved this issue by optimising the excel file, he basically ended up replicating the results published in the sup data, this is especially true for Abkhasians, Chechens, Druze, Cypriots, Maltese, Sicilians, Ashkenazim and SE Europeans (Greeks, Albanians, etc)...
    Given the huge paucity of this component (even using the misleading version of this test), labeling Ashkenazim "European" is far-fetched to say the least.
    The lack of WHG is a huge blow to all the theories which propose that Jews are basically half "European" (which is a very vague term in this context).

    I think most of the European ancestry in Western Jews comes from the Eastern Mediterranean when the diaspora was taking form, and there's much to bet that the place looked quite different genes-wise (less WHG, no doubt).

    All in all, if you lean back and take all the evidence we have into account, Western Jews basically look like a typically Eastern Mediterranean-North Levantine population.
    They plot between Mainland Greeks (Thessaly) and Cypriots on PCA plots, which is rather telling since Cypriots might've retained much of the pre-islamic Levant's genetic make-up.

    From an autosomal standpoint, the two main problems with the European admixture of Ashkenazim are:

    1. The lack of WHG
    2. The lack of IBD segments with Germans, Italians or other populations which supposedly provided converts (and we'd still have to figure out the direction of gene-flow)
    It is safe to say that Ashkenazi retained their uniqueness in general sense, but to completely deny even small mixing with Europeans is exaggeration, don't you think? The 23andme graph shows strong pull of many Ashkenazi towards Europe.

    http://blog.23andme.com/ancestry/the...nt-for-health/

    It is interesting to see that there is quite a distance between all Jewish groups. Can 2,000 year of insulation and separation of these groups explain these drifts, simply based on random mutation? If not then there are only two other possibilities. One being, non homogeneous population of Jews prior to separation and migration. Second, limited mixing with locals, or with someone else on their way to destination.

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    Quote Originally Posted by Semitic Duwa View Post
    Sicilians also plot in the Eastern Mediterranean, close to Cretan, Maltese and Aegean islanders (and of course, Ashkenazi Jews).

    The main problem here is your assumption that "European" is a valid label in population genetics.
    But for argument's sake, let's examine the claim... According to Lazaridis et al. 2013, Europeans derive from three ancestral population, Western Hunter-Gatherer (WHG), Early European Farmer (EEF) and Ancient North Eurasian (ANE).
    These are real components, unlike Behar's K5 analysis, since the latter (like all modern-day components) derive from the the aforementionned components.

    This is what the authors had to say about Ashkenazi Jews:



    And this is what the authors say in the sup data (revised version, 2014):




    Ashkenazim basically show up as 93.1% EEF and 6.9% ANE with no WHG.

    Now you could argue that EEF is basically a mixture of Basal Eurasian with Near Eastern Mesolithic Hunter Gatherer components and some WHG, but if Ashkenazim truly were "Europeans" you'd also have to explain why they do not exhibit any WHG ancestry in such tests (remember, WHG is a true component, obtained from ancient DNA remains of European Hunter-Gatherers).

    Last but not least.
    The linguistic argument you put forth is self-defeating for two reasons:

    1. Jewish languages merely reflect the host country where a given Jewish community emerged, if we were to follow your logic we could argue for instance that North African Jews (Moroccan and Algerian) are "arabs" or North Africans because they have their own Judeo-Arabic and Judeo-Berber dialects despite the fact that they're ~90% identical to the allegedly "European" Ashkenazim (since they speak Yiddish, which is IE), that they overlap on PCA plots and that they have high IBD sharing.
    2. All Jewish languages were written with the Hebrew alphabet (Ktav Ashuri), the reason for this was their incapacity to transcribe typical Hebrew or Aramaic expressions (such as "Bli 3ayn haRa3", "HaShem Yiqom Damo", "Mazel Tov", etc) using the Latin alphabet.

    So the theory according to which Ashkenazi Jews are francisca-wielding Franks who mixed with Judeans doesn't really work in my book... That's the least I can say!

    And I'm sparing you painful details such as the paucity of "European" markers in Ashkenazi Jews (*cough* just have a look at your own uniparental markers for a start *cough*).

    Now it's quite possible that Jews mixed with Europeans at some point, though the insane absence of WHG surely deals a huge blow to all the theories which portray Jews as "Near Eastern-European hybrids"... In fact, Berber ancestry in NA Jews is far easier to uncover than the alleged European ancestry of AJ (since they cline quite clearly towards NA populations).
    The amount of admixture has yet to be assessed and accurately quantified, and the main problem here is that much of our current assessment is biased towards contemporary populations.
    There's much to bet that the genetic landscape was quite different a thousand years ago, not to say two thousand years ago.

    If I had to guess at this point, I'd say that most of the European admixture in Western Jews (Sephardic and Ashkenazi) was acquired during the early stages of the diaspora in the Eastern Mediterranean (which is why the picture we get is so blurry), think of the Kitos war for instance.

    Behar et al 2013 does a fine job brushing Elhaik's funny theories aside, however it fails miserably in assessing the amount of admixture Jews were subjected to as well as the direction of gene-flow when using IBD segments.

    In the end, the only way to truly quantify the amount of admixture is to obtain genome-wide studies of pre-exilic Judean samples... And even then, we'll still be splitting hairs when we get our hands on such a study (since Western Jews plot squarely in the Eastern Mediterranean).
    Until this is done, I'd take every single claim of "European" ancestry with a few tons of salt if I were you, unless someone manages to explain the absence of the WHG component amongst Ashkenazim of course (which is easier said than done).

    Alright, thanks for the detailed explanation, as you might tell I'm no expert. I just have 2 more questions.

    1. Do Sicilians, Maltese, Cypriots and Greeks score any WHG or are they pretty much like Ashkenazim?

    2. Is it possible that there was European admixture from Southeastern European populations like Mainland Greeks, Greek islanders etc? Because first, I heard that during the Hellenistic era many Jews became "Hellenised", and second, you said yourself that Ashkenazim plot between Cypriots and Mainland Greeks.

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    Quote Originally Posted by Angela View Post
    Excellent. So you're saying that the calculator that "MfA" has produced duplicates the Lazaridis results for the populations whose averages were published in the study?

    Is there a link to a site that would show those population averages using this method? Also, is there a link to a site where interested people could run their 23andme data through his calculator?

    Thanks in advance.

    (There were a lot of discussions about this at 23andme, and a recognition by some that these theories of partial European ancestry could not account for the fact that there was no significant genetic flow from Italians or Germans into the Ashkenazi gene pool.)
    Edited to state no "significant" genetic flow from Italians or Germans into the Ashkenazi gene pool. Also, to clarify, did MfA produce an alternate EEF/WHG/ANE calculator in addition to the NE calculator, as it seems pretty clear the existing one does not produce results consistent with those of the paper even for Europeans.

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    Quote Originally Posted by John Doe View Post
    Alright, thanks for the detailed explanation, as you might tell I'm no expert. I just have 2 more questions.

    1. Do Sicilians, Maltese, Cypriots and Greeks score any WHG or are they pretty much like Ashkenazim?
    I would be shocked if they have 0% WHG. However, the percentage is so low that it is sometimes smaller than degree of uncertainty, mistake, or low resolution of current tests.

    2. Is it possible that there was European admixture from Southeastern European populations like Mainland Greeks, Greek islanders etc? Because first, I heard that during the Hellenistic era many Jews became "Hellenised", and second, you said yourself that Ashkenazim plot between Cypriots and Mainland Greeks.
    From chart in post 38 we can see that Greek and Italian Jews have similar distance to "general European" same as Ashkenazi, and also somewhat genetically different from each other. We have to keep in mind that we are talking about very isolated groups, and thanks to this high insulation they managed to survive in their genetic and cultural identity with small amount of "foreign blood". We also need to remember about possibly bigger number of Jews who got assimilated in local cultures, and we will never know about them, or their numbers, but we can find Jewish contribution in many modern Europeans. My wife is 1.5% Ashkenazi, and nobody can remember from what ancestor.

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    Quote Originally Posted by LeBrok View Post
    I would be shocked if they have 0% WHG. However, the percentage is so low that it is sometimes smaller than degree of uncertainty, mistake, or low resolution of current tests.


    From chart in post 38 we can see that Greek and Italian Jews have similar distance to "general European" same as Ashkenazi, and also somewhat genetically different from each other. We have to keep in mind that we are talking about very isolated groups, and thanks to this high insulation they managed to survive in their genetic and cultural identity with small amount of "foreign blood". We also need to remember about possibly bigger number of Jews who got assimilated in local cultures, and we will never know about them, or their numbers, but we can find Jewish contribution in many modern Europeans. My wife is 1.5% Ashkenazi, and nobody can remember from what ancestor.


    Alright thanks. :)


    P.S I don't think AJs got 0 WHG, obviously the numbers are low, but not nil. According to that calculator I have around 5-6%, another bloke said it's around the percentage of Maltese, but that same bloke said that when it comes to Euro-Mediterranean populations like Sicilians, Maltese, Greeks, Cypriots and Ashkenazim that calculator doesn't work well.

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    Quote Originally Posted by Angela View Post
    Edited to state no "significant" genetic flow from Italians or Germans into the Ashkenazi gene pool. Also, to clarify, did MfA produce an alternate EEF/WHG/ANE calculator in addition to the NE calculator, as it seems pretty clear the existing one does not produce results consistent with those of the paper even for Europeans.
    MfA's file was optimised specifically for West Asian populations, which often get negative WHG scores.
    It basically weeds out WHG (including from EEF to some extent), which is why it tends to fit with the paper's figures (especially as far as Eastern Mediterranean pops, namely Maltese, Jews & Sicilians, are of concern).

    It doesn't solve the outlandish scores non-Basque Iberians and other European populations (such as Greeks, Albanians, Tuscans, N. Italians etc) obtain, as you this calculator produces inconsistent results (with large margins of error).

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    Quote Originally Posted by LeBrok View Post
    It is safe to say that Ashkenazi retained their uniqueness in general sense, but to completely deny even small mixing with Europeans is exaggeration, don't you think? The 23andme graph shows strong pull of many Ashkenazi towards Europe.

    http://blog.23andme.com/ancestry/the...nt-for-health/

    It is interesting to see that there is quite a distance between all Jewish groups. Can 2,000 year of insulation and separation of these groups explain these drifts, simply based on random mutation? If not then there are only two other possibilities. One being, non homogeneous population of Jews prior to separation and migration. Second, limited mixing with locals, or with someone else on their way to destination.
    Ashkenazim, due to their high degree of endogamy, do not fully reflect their ancestral populations' diversity... Though their placement in relation to other jewish communities certainly hints towards a complicated past (one which cannot be solved by using contemporary populations as proxies).

    I already saw this graph by the past, it doesn't make much sense tbh... But again, we're comparing apples with oranges since Mizrahi Jews are thrown into the lot.
    That's probably why Ashkenazim cline so strongly towards Europe.
    In fact, Ashkenazim are extremely similar to Turkish, Bulgarian & Greek Jews (something like ~95% identical) with whom they overlap.
    This graph doesn't make much sense mainly because Syrian, Italqi & Sephardic Jews appear closer to Mizrahim than to Ashkenazim... While the opposite is true (Sephardim, NA Jews, Syrian Jews & Ashkenazim basically form one big Western Jewish cluster).

    Of course with enough resolution you can separate all of these Jewish groups, even though they have very high IBD sharing with one another.

    I'm not denying the existence of European admixture in Ashkenazim, as you said this would be an exaggeration from my part.
    What I am saying, though, is that this admixture is very difficult to isolate and quantify, and this is mainly due to the fact that Jews are so similar to Sephardim (hence the only reasonable amount of European admixture had to come from a Mediterranean population, and it's very likely that this population was extremely low on WHG when gene-flow took place).
    Heck, even North African admixture in Sephardim is easier to uncover.

    Actually, I wouldn't exactly be surprised if Ashkenazi endogamy is responsible for the extreme situation we're confronted with.

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    Quote Originally Posted by John Doe View Post
    Alright, thanks for the detailed explanation, as you might tell I'm no expert. I just have 2 more questions.

    1. Do Sicilians, Maltese, Cypriots and Greeks score any WHG or are they pretty much like Ashkenazim?

    2. Is it possible that there was European admixture from Southeastern European populations like Mainland Greeks, Greek islanders etc? Because first, I heard that during the Hellenistic era many Jews became "Hellenised", and second, you said yourself that Ashkenazim plot between Cypriots and Mainland Greeks.

    1. It depends which calculator you're using, and whether you're ready to take the study into account.

    In the original calculator, all of these populations have a very small amount of WHG, just above noise level (like Ashkenazim).

    In the study (Greeks aside), they simply don't have this component, and this is replicated in the optimised version of the test for WA populations (which is why this optimised version makes sense):



    2. This is basically what I am saying: If there really is European admixture, it must've come from a population with very low to non-existent WHG, which is probably what the Eastern Mediterranean looked like during the emergence of the Diaspora (prior to the Temple's destruction).
    It makes sense because, as you said, Jews went through a philhellenic period, and many had Greek names when they came to Europe (just read about the Kalonymos family).
    Here again, the sole flaw with this model is the low amount of IBD sharing with Greeks... Another problem which arises from this model is that uncovering the real amount of pre-exilic Judean ancestry becomes a pain in the @ss because we'll be splitting hairs (much of what makes up Mainland Greek ancestry emanated from the Levant at some point, and since the pre-islamic Levant probably was Cypriot-like the difference becomes narrow and can only be obvious if more resolution is brought in.).

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    Quote Originally Posted by Semitic Duwa View Post
    MfA's file was optimised specifically for West Asian populations, which often get negative WHG scores.
    It basically weeds out WHG (including from EEF to some extent), which is why it tends to fit with the paper's figures (especially as far as Eastern Mediterranean pops, namely Maltese, Jews & Sicilians, are of concern).

    It doesn't solve the outlandish scores non-Basque Iberians and other European populations (such as Greeks, Albanians, Tuscans, N. Italians etc) obtain, as you this calculator produces inconsistent results (with large margins of error).
    Outlandish indeed. I just had to look at the Tuscan and North Italian scores compared to those in the study. It's too bad. Perhaps he should consider putting another calculator out there.

    I was thinking of asking you precisely that question, i.e. does the NE calculator also remove the WHG that is part of EEF.

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    Quote Originally Posted by Semitic Duwa View Post
    1. It depends which calculator you're using, and whether you're ready to take the study into account.

    In the original calculator, all of these populations have a very small amount of WHG, just above noise level (like Ashkenazim).

    In the study (Greeks aside), they simply don't have this component, and this is replicated in the optimised version of the test for WA populations (which is why this optimised version makes sense):



    2. This is basically what I am saying: If there really is European admixture, it must've come from a population with very low to non-existent WHG, which is probably what the Eastern Mediterranean looked like during the emergence of the Diaspora (prior to the Temple's destruction).
    It makes sense because, as you said, Jews went through a philhellenic period, and many had Greek names when they came to Europe (just read about the Kalonymos family).
    Here again, the sole flaw with this model is the low amount of IBD sharing with Greeks... Another problem which arises from this model is that uncovering the real amount of pre-exilic Judean ancestry becomes a pain in the @ss because we'll be splitting hairs (much of what makes up Mainland Greek ancestry emanated from the Levant at some point, and since the pre-islamic Levant probably was Cypriot-like the difference becomes narrow and can only be obvious if more resolution is brought in.).
    The IBD data has always been the fly in the ointment. My husband routinely gets Ashkenazim and Sephardim as, if not his number one match, within the first three matches, no matter what calculator is used.(along with Greek and southern Italian) Yet, there's no significant RF results with Ashkenazim and no IBD sharing that can't be explained by ancient gene flow from the Levant during the Neolithic or at a stretch the Bronze Age. I don't know if the geneticists will ever be able to disentangle the strands.

    You mentioned the Kitos War. Are you thinking that the admixture, if any, took place during the Hellenization of the Near East, or are you thinking that it was an aftermath of the war?

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    Quote Originally Posted by Angela View Post

    I was thinking of asking you precisely that question, i.e. does the NE calculator also remove the WHG that is part of EEF.
    I think it will be possible once we have genom of pure Ancient Near Eastern Farmer.

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    Do you think this graph still makes sense?

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    Quote Originally Posted by Angela View Post
    The IBD data has always been the fly in the ointment. My husband routinely gets Ashkenazim and Sephardim as, if not his number one match, within the first three matches, no matter what calculator is used.(along with Greek and southern Italian) Yet, there's no significant RF results with Ashkenazim and no IBD sharing that can't be explained by ancient gene flow from the Levant during the Neolithic or at a stretch the Bronze Age. I don't know if the geneticists will ever be able to disentangle the strands.

    You mentioned the Kitos War. Are you thinking that the admixture, if any, took place during the Hellenization of the Near East, or are you thinking that it was an aftermath of the war?
    Actually, the IBD data is beneficial for Southern Italians and other people who plot in the East Med, as it can tell you whether this is due to Jewish ancestry or not.

    The only way to get a decent picture of the demographic effects which led to this situation is to obtain genome-wide samples of Iron Age Greeks, Aegeans, Sicilians, Cretans, Cypriots and Levantines.
    ^^ With this, we wouldn't be speculating anymore and we would finally be onto something (even if this means splitting hairs, which can be managed in the long term).

    I think that if there was Greek admixture, we can expect gene-flow to have taken place since the beginning of the Iron Age (with the Sea Peoples).
    The Judeans incorporated the Philistines amongst their midst, so that's the first major episode of Aegean gene-flow if you ask me.
    Of course, the spread of Hellenization to the Near East plays a huge part as well, and I wouldn't be surprised to learn that many Judeans mixed with neighbouring Greeks (back when descent laws were lenient).
    The diaspora was already established prior to the Temple's destruction, for me the Kitos war merely highlights the fact that Jews were already anchored in the Eastern Mediterranean world... Which is why I think that much of the admixture came from neighbouring Hellenic populations.
    So I think it took place mainly prior to the Kitos War... But I could be wrong.

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