Jewish people, where they are from?

It seems you have a hard time expressing yourself: This is what you said in your response to my post: "Again, this study was overturned by Fernandez et al. 2014's re-analysis of Syrian PPNB remains, and I won't even bother quoting the supplemental data where the authors contradict their own conclusions."

You said nothing about female DNA. Why dont you explain things more clearly so I can understand where you are coming from.

I'm just going to assume you're trølling, either that or you really lack the basic cognitive skills to comprehend what I'm writing (if that's the case, I suggest you refrain from discussing such topics altogether).
 
First of all what is "Eastern European component" ??? Because what it will be always depends on how you define it.

In Dodecad K10 there is no such thing as "Eastern European component", instead there is Northern European one.

North-Eastern Europeans and Scandinavians happen to have highest scores in "North_European" component.

Percent of Northern European ("North_European") component by ethnic group from Dodecad K10:

Lithuanian_D87
Finnish_D77
Russian_D72.3
Polish_D71
Swedish_D71
Norwegian_D69.8
Irish_D63
German_D62
British_Isles_D60.3
British_D60
French_D50
Spanish_D37
Portuguese_D35
O_Italian24.7
Greek_D20
C_Italian_D20
Ashkenazi_D15
Sicilian_D13.5
S_Italian_D12.4
Turkish_D9
Indian_D6
Iranian_D6
Armenian_D0.3
Assyrian_D0
 
Ancient Jews were probably like Assyrians and Armenians - that is, close to 0% of North_European.

Ancient Italians and Greeks - part of whom converted to Judaism - had much less of North_European than do modern ones.

That's because Italians and Greeks were admixed by Germanic and Slavic tribes in the Middle Ages.

Thus it was only during the Early Middle Ages, when percent of "North_European" among Greeks and Italians increased.

So modern 15% of North_European in Jews doesn't come from Ancient Italians and Greeks, at least not mostly from them.
 
You're talking about Dodecad 10, I'm talking about Carmi et al.'s Eastern European component. If we were to compare, I might as well bring up Eurogenes K15's Eastern Euro component, the Ashkenazi average is 5.17% for example (in other words twice as less as what Carmi et al. are proposing). Another fallacy here is to assume that all of the "Northern European" alleles in Ashkenazim come from Eastern Europe, while in fact they could just as well have made their entry into the Ashkenazi gene pool when the Jewish diaspora started mingling with Greeks (who probably carried this component as well).
But again, in the end this is all speculation, without ancient data we're just producing educated guesses.
 
Semitic Duwa said:
Romania and Hungary being "Slavic lands"
Obviously they aren't fully Slavic, but large part of Romanian and Hungarian ancestry is from Slavic ethnic groups.

Romanians are a mixture of Vlachs + Slavs + others, or maybe Slavs + Vlachs + others, depending on proportions.

Modern Hungarians are unlike conquest-era Magyars.

We have samples of Magyar ancient DNA, and it seems that Magyars were only a tiny ruling elite, imposing their language on much larger populations they had conquered. Large part of those populations were Slavic. Later Germans came, adding to the mix.

There are several studies examining Magyar ancient DNA samples, and comparing them to modern Hungarians.

All studies show very small numbers of matches - and most of these few matches are among Szeklers from Transylvania.
 


Really ??? If I remember correctly, it is rather based on appearance of modern Palestinian Arabs.

Isn't this showing a "politically correct" version of Jesus? Because the former one was "too white" ???

This image was created form skulls discovered in Israel-Palestine dated at the time of Jesus. So I think it would reflect what Jews looked like at the time.
 
Ancient Jews were probably like Assyrians and Armenians - that is, close to 0% of North_European.

Ancient Italians and Greeks - part of whom converted to Judaism - had much less of North_European than do modern ones.

That's because Italians and Greeks were admixed by Germanic and Slavic tribes in the Middle Ages.

Thus it was only during the Early Middle Ages, when percent of "North_European" among Greeks and Italians increased.

So modern 15% of North_European in Jews doesn't come from Ancient Italians and Greeks, at least not mostly from them.

Again, much of what you wrote here are just bold claims based on contemporary evidence. You could be right, you could be wrong. The fact of the matter is that your approach is too simplistic and fails to take into account other models, for instance claiming that the "North_European" component increased in Italians and Greeks during the Middle Ages is self-defeating since we have no data from the Mediterranean enabling us to gauge the validity of such a claim.
If anything, a model where Jews acquired the bulk of their "North_European" component by admixing with Ancient Greeks is equally plausible, since who's to say whether Iron Age Greeks had inflated levels of this component?

Another flaw with all this talk about the "North_European" component is the huge paucity of the WHG component in Ashkenazi Jews as per Lazaridis et al. (along with other studies and third party analysis). You'd expect more of it if Ashkenazi truly mixed with Northern Europeans and Eastern Europeans to such an extent.
 
Semitic Duwa said:
for instance claiming that the "North_European" component increased in Italians and Greeks during the Middle Ages is self-defeating since we have no data from the Mediterranean enabling us to gauge the validity of such a claim.

Yes I have no data so far.

We have a lot of gaps in ancient DNA and you also claim many things without supporting your claims by aDNA evidence.

However, historical records say about migrations of Germanic and then Slavic tribes to Italy and Greece.

Those Germanic and Slavic tribes obviously carried with them a lot of this "North_European" component as defined here.

So my claim may be true.
 
Semitic Duwa said:
If anything, a model where Jews acquired the bulk of their "North_European" component by admixing with Ancient Greeks is equally plausible, since who's to say whether Iron Age Greeks had inflated levels of this component?

Early Iron Age Greeks might have had a bit higher level of North_European.

But after that, Greeks assimilated a lot of people who obviously had low levels of this component.

In Hellenistic and Roman times people from Syria, etc. migrated into Greece.
 
Let's make several assumptions:

1) that Ancient Jews were 0% North_European (like Assyrians or Armenians)
2) that Southern Europeans who converted to Judaism were 20% North_European*
3) that modern Jews are 35% Southern European (per Carmi and Xue paper)

65% with 0% NEuro mix with 35% with 20% NEuro.

The result should be 7% Northern European after such a mixture, if I count this correctly.

But modern Jews are 15% Northern European. So where does the remaining 8% come from ???

There had to be another admixture, which raised North_European from 7% to 15%.

*Just like modern Central Italians and Greeks, see the data posted above.
 


Yes I have no data so far.

We have a lot of gaps in ancient DNA and you also claim many things without supporting your claims by aDNA evidence.

However, historical records say about migrations of Germanic and then Slavic tribes to Italy and Greece.

Those Germanic and Slavic tribes obviously carried with them a lot of this "North_European" component as defined here.

So my claim may be true.

Considering Ralph & Coop's 2012 paper, attributing the inflation of the "North_European" component to Germanic in the Italian peninsula doesn't seem very convincing. You might have a point in Greece though, as Slavic admixture obviously occurred in mainland Greece.
All I'm saying is that we should take contemporary data with a grain of salt.
 


Early Iron Age Greeks might have had a bit higher level of North_European.

But after that, Greeks assimilated a lot of people who obviously had low levels of this component.

In Hellenistic and Roman times people from Syria, etc. migrated into Greece.

Likewise, I could highlight the fact that Aegean populations settled in the Levant since the Middle Bronze Age, and that these people are likely to have carried a component ancestral to Dodecad 10's "North_European" component... As you can see, it can go both ways.
At this point, we are in dire need of ancient data.
 
Semitic Duwa said:
as Slavic admixture obviously occurred in mainland Greece.

It seems that not only in mainland Greece, but also in Crete.

Ca. 10% of Cretans have R1a, mostly M458 and downstream clades. I wonder if that came there only with Slavic immigration, or some of it came before. There was some Slavic settlement there, but was it significant enough to increase M458 to 10%?

Check - "The Slavic Elements in the Cretan Vocabulary (in Polish; with English Summary)":

https://www.academia.edu/6878626/The_Slavic_Elements_in_the_Cretan_Vocabulary_in_Polish_English_Summary

Technically speaking, M458 is old enough that it could come to Crete already with - for example - the Achaeans.

But Slavic settlement in Crete also took place, and it is hard to believe that they came without any M458.
 
Let's make several assumptions:

1) that Ancient Jews were 0% North_European (like Assyrians or Armenians)
2) that Southern Europeans who converted to Judaism were 20% North_European*
3) that modern Jews are 35% Southern European (per Carmi and Xue paper)

65% with 0% NEuro mix with 35% with 20% NEuro.

The result should be 7% Northern European after such a mixture, if I count this correctly.

But modern Jews are 15% Northern European. So where does the remaining 8% come from ???

There had to be another admixture, which raised North_European from 7% to 15%.

*Just like modern Central Italians and Greeks, see the data posted above.

If we take into account the fact that Allentoft et al. 2015's BA Armenians are much more European-shifted than modern-day Armenians (and, by extension, Assyrians), there's reason to cast doubt on your first assumption... Care to explain?
But again, your approach is too simplistic and fails to take other models into account, this is why we should not draw conclusions from contemporary data in the first place.
 


It seems that not only in mainland Greece, but also in Crete.

Ca. 10% of Cretans have R1a, mostly M458 and downstream clades. I wonder if that came there only with Slavic immigration, or some of it came before. There was some Slavic settlement there, but was it significant enough to increase M458 to 10%?

Check - "The Slavic Elements in the Cretan Vocabulary (in Polish; with English Summary)":

https://www.academia.edu/6878626/The_Slavic_Elements_in_the_Cretan_Vocabulary_in_Polish_English_Summary

Technically speaking, M458 is old enough that it could come to Crete already with - for example - the Achaeans.

But Slavic settlement in Crete also took place, and it is hard to believe that they came without any M458.

None of that is conclusive really, and as you said M458 is old enough to have arrived in Crete with the Myceneans. We'll need ancient genomic data from Minoan sites to validate (or invalidate) such theories.
 
and as you said M458 is old enough to have arrived in Crete with the Myceneans.

Yet today, great majority of M458 carriers are Slavic or live in / descent from areas of former Slavic settlement.

It has even better correlation with Slavs than Z280, which seems to be both Slavic and Baltic (Lithuanian-Latvian).

But you can't really explain Slavs using just M458 or just Z280, you must use both (and very likely also I2a).

Just like Italo-Celts can't be explained by using just L21, U152 or DF27 - all 3 branches of P312 correlate with them.

In the past it was claimed, that only L21 was Celtic - but actually it correlates just with Insular Celts (Britons, Gaels).

Vast majority of Celts living in your country (France), perhaps had to be U152 or / and DF27.

Here is a (rather) quite good map shwoing the distribution of DF27:

http://gen3553.pagesperso-orange.fr/ADN/R1bsousgroupes.htm

DF27T.png


And here U152:

U152T.png


All of P312 subclades combined:

P312T.png


======================

And U106, which does not belong to P312 and correlates more with Germanic peoples:
(though perhaps some of it could be carried by Ancient Celts and Belgae / Belgians as well):

U106T.png
 


Yet in today vast majority of M458 carriers are Slavic or live in / descent from areas of former Slavic settlement.

It has even better correlation with Slavs than Z280, which seems to be both Slavic and Baltic (Lithuanian-Latvian).

I agree that M458 is a far better fit for the Slavic expansion than Z280, yet to make a Slavic paternal contribution to the Cretan gene pool sound more convincing we'd need to know which subclades of M458 are found in Crete to start with.
 
You misunderstood me - BOTH of these subclades are, in fact, very good fits for the Slavic expansion.

It is just that Z280 is also a good fit for Balts (who have common Balto-Slavic ancestry with Slavs anyway).

By the way - I2a Dinaric is also a good fit for Slavic expansion. Look at its distribution.

High % of I2a goes from South Belarus, through West Ukraine, Moldova, parts of Romania, into the Balkans.

Exactly along the route attributed to ancestors of South-East Slavs in their expansion into the Balkans.
 
And U106, which does not belong to P312 and correlates more with Germanic peoples:
(though perhaps some of it could be carried by Ancient Celts and Belgae / Belgians as well):

U106T.png

I doubt U106 was a common haplogroup in the Iron Age Celts, especially considering the fact that it was found in one of the Allentoft et al. 2015 Battle Axe samples from Sweden [RISE98].
 
You misunderstood me - BOTH of these subclades are, in fact, very good fits for the Slavic expansion.

It is just that Z280 is also a good fit for Balts (who have common Balto-Slavic ancestry with Slavs anyway).

By the way - I2a Dinaric is also a good fit for Slavic expansion. Look at its distribution.

High % of I2a goes from South Belarus, through West Ukraine, Moldova, parts of Romania, into the Balkans.

Exactly along the route attributed to ancestors of South-East Slavs in their expansion to the Balkans.

Z280 does seem to be more prominently associated with Baltic speakers, though some of its subclades could've spread with the Proto-Slavs (along with I2a-Din). We are in agreement here.
 

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