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Thread: Jewish people, where they are from?

  1. #201
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    Quote Originally Posted by John Doe View Post
    Perhaps the Ashkenazi Jews adopted Old High German and mixed it with Hebrew/Aramaic and some Greek/Latin before the first Crusade, i.e before the great persecutions began, while it's true that under the Frankish empire (including East Francia which would turn into the Holy Roman empire), Jews were regarded as foreigners, property of the king/kaiser, and as heretics by the church, but before the Crusades, until the late 11th century, the church still had a difficult time placing it's authority in the region (in fact, one of the reasons Pope Urban the II called for a Crusade in response to the request of a few experienced mercenaries was to expand his authority), and so Jews had it easier until that time, and perhaps they adopted the local language by interacting with the locals via trade, money landing etc.
    As I said before, the foreigner status of the Jews during the early middle age was no discrimination but a privilege. It implied direct jurisdiction by the king/emperor instead of by local courts, freedom from armed services, and freedom from local excises and customs duties. The king/emperor could request the local nobility for armed service (knights), but could not levy taxes on them. So the royal finances depended strongly on the king's direct subjects, i.e. prince-bishops and Jews. In the late 11th century, a power struggle between king/emperor and Pope emerged over the right to install bishops. That struggle had a lot to do with who gains the tax revenue from the German prince-bishoprics (Cologne, Mainz, Trier, etc.) - and these prince-bishoprics used to control the largest and richest cities of the Frankish realm. As part of this power struggle, which was meant to reap the king/emperor of his financial base, the Vatican also targeted the Jews via the 1st Crusade. Some prince-bishops loyal to the emperor, e.g. the Bishop of Speyer, successfully protected the Jews against the Crusaders. Others, e.g. Mainz, initially protected the Jews but gave in to the Crusaders after a few days. The Bishop of Cologne from the outset seems to have given the Crusaders free hand.

    In the High Middle Ages, the situation became more complicated, as Free Cities (also directly subject to / taxable by the emperor) arose as additional power factor. The Cologne Jews often found themselves forced to take side in the endless power struggle between the prince-bishop and the city magistrate, sometimes ending with the winning, sometimes with the losing side, but always a welcome scapegoat. The 1298 Rintfleisch massacres along the upper Danube took place against the background of the fights between Adolf of Nassau and Albert I of Austria (Habsburg). The magistrates of Augsburg and Regensburg, both loyal to Albert, protected their Jewish communities [In turn, Augsburg Jews, while theoretically freed from paying local taxes, agreed to contribute to repairing the heavily damaged city walls "in honour of the city"]. Cities favouring Adolf (Heilbronn, Rothenburg etc.), OTOH, allowed the mob to slaughter Jews there. When Albert had finally emerged victorious, he reinforced Jewish privileges. Cities that had allowed massacres to happen had to pay compensation - not to the surviving Jews, but to the emperor for foregone Jewish tax revenue.
    The 1349 Strassburg pogroms formed part of the local power struggle between the magistrate, controlled by local merchants and supported by the Jewish community, and a coalition between bishop, local nobility and craftsmen. The local power struggle was embedded into the throne dispute between Charles IV (Luxemburg) and Ludwig of Bavaria (Wittelsbach). After a craftsmen revolt against the magistrate had failed, the bishop and noblemen orchestrated the pogroms just five days later, which ultimately gave them the upper side.
    http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Strasbourg_massacre
    A much-disputed issue is why Charles IV didn't protect his Jewish subjects in Strasbourg, Cologne and elsewhere. One of the theories is that he had lost financial interest, since, for lack of funds, he had leased out the Jewish tax revenue to third parties (in the case of Strasbourg this had even been done twice, by Charles as well as by his opponent). Destruction of the Jewish community would have made the leases void, and allowed the king to re-establish (and newly lease out) taxation rights on any successor community.
    Charles' son, Emperor Sigismund (1411-1437), who was chronically short of cash, in 1414 requested a "coronation gift" on top of regular taxes from his Jewish subjects. The "gift" was to amount to the "third penny", i.e. 1/3 of Jewish mobile property, and to be collected by all cities in question. City magistrates were anything but happy, especially as they in 1385 had gained taxation rights on their Jewish citizens as compensation for a payment of 40,000 Gulden to King Wenzel, but after long protests ultimately complied. Sigismund levied another "third penny" on Jews on the occasion of becoming Emperor in 1433/34. His successor (again after a civil war). Albrecht II of Austria (Habsburg), in 1438 regarded a "third penny" at coronation already as established practice, as did Frederick III in 1442 (coronation as king) and 1452 (coronation as Emperor), and most of his successors.
    There is indication of several cities expelling the Jews as "temporary measure" in order to get rid of the obligation to pay the "third penny" to the Emperor and re-collect it afterwards from the Jewish community. The city of Augsburg, e.g., in 1433/34 intervened massively in favour of "our Jewish citizens" against Sigismund's "third penny". The 1438 expulsion of Jews from the city, announced after Albrecht II claimed his "third penny", included a 2-year grace period, which was obviously meant to gain time until the outcome of the fight for the crown was clear. The temporary expulsion from Mainz between 1438 and 1445, after which the synagogue and other Jewish structures were returned to their original purposes, seems to have followed the same motivation. It also appears that the expulsion of Jews from Cologne in 1424 was initially more of a tactical measure, geared at winning time until the dispute between the Emperor and the city of Frankfurt / Main on the general legitimacy of the "third penny" had been decided - many Jews just moved to suburbs across the Rhine. The 1442 expulsion from some Bavarian territories including Munich, expulsion from Erfurt in 1453, and the expulsion wave from NE Germany after 1492 are also coinciding with attempts to levy the "third penny" via the cities/ counts/ dukes in question. In several other cities, however, expulsion cannot be linked to the "third penny", and other motives (debt cancelation, getting rid of competition, using the Jewish quarters for urban projects as in Nuremberg 1349, etc.) may have played a role as well.

    The various "third pennies" eroded the financial power of Jewish communities, and also their relevance to the city budgets. When the liquidity crisis of the 13th/14th century was overcome by fresh minting of Bohemian and later South American silver, Jewish trade finance lost relevance, and non-Jewish merchants saw the opportunity to engage in previously Jewish-dominated banking and long-distance trade (e.g. Augsburg's famous Fugger and Welser families). Imperial protection had already for some time not been worth the paper it was written on, former privileges turned into massive financial burdens, urban power and social struggles increased in violence and number (e.g. Hussite wars), with Jews always serving as welcome scapegoats, and the once supportive local "merchant aristocracy" gradually turned away - no wonder many Jews decided to leave towards CE Europe.

    Note that Jewish expulsion/ emigration wasn't universal: The Jewish community of Frankfurt / Main existed, except for a short break between 1349 and 1360, continuously until the early 1940s. A key event here was the 1422-1424 dispute between city magistrate and Emperor Sigismund on taxation rights over local Jews. Somehow, the magistrate managed to win the dispute, remained free from having to levy the "third penny", and refuted further attempts to expel Jews, e.g. in 1515. Consequently, Frankfurt attracted many Jews expelled elsewhere, which in turn helped the city to become a major European financial centre. In nearby Worms (1487) and Mainz (1515), expulsions ordered by the local bishops were cancelled by the Emperors, who wanted to preserve the remains of their Jewish tax base. Worms' Jewish cemetery has been used continuously from the 11th century until 1911. Many Ashkenazi also settled in the German countryside, where they especially focused on cattle and horse trade, though may of them became impoverished.

    However, coming back to the issue of Yiddish, any direct relation of Eastern European to Rhine-Main Ashkenazi is rather unlikely. Rhine-Main dialects haven't fully taken part in the Celtic softenting of "ch" into "sh", but also show no signs of the Alemannic hardening into "kh". I definitely think that Yiddish evolved somewhere around Basel, Strasbourg and Freiburg, and probably rather in the 13th/ 14th century than before the 1st Crusade. Berne (pogroms in 1294 and 1348, expulsion 1427) and Zurich (expulsion 1436, but no pogroms before) would be even more plausible accent-wise. Here, we are also talking 13/14th century; the first Jewish community in Switzerland was recorded in 1213.

    Semitic Duwa:
    There actually was a Judaeo-slavic language, Knaanic... But it became extinct during the late middle ages & was eventually replaced by Yiddish.
    That should indicate (post-) Khazar Jewish settlement, of which I am quite sure that it took place (and I think there are also a few genetic traces of it). Wikipedia names a 9th century letter from Ruthenia as first evidence of Knaanic - time-wise and geographically quite closely connected to the Khazars. Unfortunately, Ruthenia has not been covered by any of the genetic studies that we are discussing in this thread. In the 12/13th century, i.e. before the start of the German colonisation, coins with Hebrew letters were minted in Kalisz, Poland. That suggests that Jews were anything but irrelevant in the High Medieval Polish business society. However, I would assume they mostly settled in the towns and cities (as, e.g., Georgian Jews did), not in the countryside. This also implies that their genetic traces, if existing, should rather be searched for in those cities than in remote valleys. [ This valley (link), might be an exception, and I would be really curious about the results if it ever became DNA-sampled]
    http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Knaanic_language

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    Quote Originally Posted by FrankN View Post
    As I said before, the foreigner status of the Jews during the early middle age was no discrimination but a privilege. It implied direct jurisdiction by the king/emperor instead of by local courts, freedom from armed services, and freedom from local excises and customs duties. The king/emperor could request the local nobility for armed service (knights), but could not levy taxes on them. So the royal finances depended strongly on the king's direct subjects, i.e. prince-bishops and Jews. In the late 11th century, a power struggle between king/emperor and Pope emerged over the right to install bishops. That struggle had a lot to do with who gains the tax revenue from the German prince-bishoprics (Cologne, Mainz, Trier, etc.) - and these prince-bishoprics used to control the largest and richest cities of the Frankish realm. As part of this power struggle, which was meant to reap the king/emperor of his financial base, the Vatican also targeted the Jews via the 1st Crusade. Some prince-bishops loyal to the emperor, e.g. the Bishop of Speyer, successfully protected the Jews against the Crusaders. Others, e.g. Mainz, initially protected the Jews but gave in to the Crusaders after a few days. The Bishop of Cologne from the outset seems to have given the Crusaders free hand.

    In the High Middle Ages, the situation became more complicated, as Free Cities (also directly subject to / taxable by the emperor) arose as additional power factor. The Cologne Jews often found themselves forced to take side in the endless power struggle between the prince-bishop and the city magistrate, sometimes ending with the winning, sometimes with the losing side, but always a welcome scapegoat. The 1298 Rintfleisch massacres along the upper Danube took place against the background of the fights between Adolf of Nassau and Albert I of Austria (Habsburg). The magistrates of Augsburg and Regensburg, both loyal to Albert, protected their Jewish communities [In turn, Augsburg Jews, while theoretically freed from paying local taxes, agreed to contribute to repairing the heavily damaged city walls "in honour of the city"]. Cities favouring Adolf (Heilbronn, Rothenburg etc.), OTOH, allowed the mob to slaughter Jews there. When Albert had finally emerged victorious, he reinforced Jewish privileges. Cities that had allowed massacres to happen had to pay compensation - not to the surviving Jews, but to the emperor for foregone Jewish tax revenue.
    The 1349 Strassburg pogroms formed part of the local power struggle between the magistrate, controlled by local merchants and supported by the Jewish community, and a coalition between bishop, local nobility and craftsmen. The local power struggle was embedded into the throne dispute between Charles IV (Luxemburg) and Ludwig of Bavaria (Wittelsbach). After a craftsmen revolt against the magistrate had failed, the bishop and noblemen orchestrated the pogroms just five days later, which ultimately gave them the upper side.
    http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Strasbourg_massacre
    A much-disputed issue is why Charles IV didn't protect his Jewish subjects in Strasbourg, Cologne and elsewhere. One of the theories is that he had lost financial interest, since, for lack of funds, he had leased out the Jewish tax revenue to third parties (in the case of Strasbourg this had even been done twice, by Charles as well as by his opponent). Destruction of the Jewish community would have made the leases void, and allowed the king to re-establish (and newly lease out) taxation rights on any successor community.
    Charles' son, Emperor Sigismund (1411-1437), who was chronically short of cash, in 1414 requested a "coronation gift" on top of regular taxes from his Jewish subjects. The "gift" was to amount to the "third penny", i.e. 1/3 of Jewish mobile property, and to be collected by all cities in question. City magistrates were anything but happy, especially as they in 1385 had gained taxation rights on their Jewish citizens as compensation for a payment of 40,000 Gulden to King Wenzel, but after long protests ultimately complied. Sigismund levied another "third penny" on Jews on the occasion of becoming Emperor in 1433/34. His successor (again after a civil war). Albrecht II of Austria (Habsburg), in 1438 regarded a "third penny" at coronation already as established practice, as did Frederick III in 1442 (coronation as king) and 1452 (coronation as Emperor), and most of his successors.
    There is indication of several cities expelling the Jews as "temporary measure" in order to get rid of the obligation to pay the "third penny" to the Emperor and re-collect it afterwards from the Jewish community. The city of Augsburg, e.g., in 1433/34 intervened massively in favour of "our Jewish citizens" against Sigismund's "third penny". The 1438 expulsion of Jews from the city, announced after Albrecht II claimed his "third penny", included a 2-year grace period, which was obviously meant to gain time until the outcome of the fight for the crown was clear. The temporary expulsion from Mainz between 1438 and 1445, after which the synagogue and other Jewish structures were returned to their original purposes, seems to have followed the same motivation. It also appears that the expulsion of Jews from Cologne in 1424 was initially more of a tactical measure, geared at winning time until the dispute between the Emperor and the city of Frankfurt / Main on the general legitimacy of the "third penny" had been decided - many Jews just moved to suburbs across the Rhine. The 1442 expulsion from some Bavarian territories including Munich, expulsion from Erfurt in 1453, and the expulsion wave from NE Germany after 1492 are also coinciding with attempts to levy the "third penny" via the cities/ counts/ dukes in question. In several other cities, however, expulsion cannot be linked to the "third penny", and other motives (debt cancelation, getting rid of competition, using the Jewish quarters for urban projects as in Nuremberg 1349, etc.) may have played a role as well.

    The various "third pennies" eroded the financial power of Jewish communities, and also their relevance to the city budgets. When the liquidity crisis of the 13th/14th century was overcome by fresh minting of Bohemian and later South American silver, Jewish trade finance lost relevance, and non-Jewish merchants saw the opportunity to engage in previously Jewish-dominated banking and long-distance trade (e.g. Augsburg's famous Fugger and Welser families). Imperial protection had already for some time not been worth the paper it was written on, former privileges turned into massive financial burdens, urban power and social struggles increased in violence and number (e.g. Hussite wars), with Jews always serving as welcome scapegoats, and the once supportive local "merchant aristocracy" gradually turned away - no wonder many Jews decided to leave towards CE Europe.

    Note that Jewish expulsion/ emigration wasn't universal: The Jewish community of Frankfurt / Main existed, except for a short break between 1349 and 1360, continuously until the early 1940s. A key event here was the 1422-1424 dispute between city magistrate and Emperor Sigismund on taxation rights over local Jews. Somehow, the magistrate managed to win the dispute, remained free from having to levy the "third penny", and refuted further attempts to expel Jews, e.g. in 1515. Consequently, Frankfurt attracted many Jews expelled elsewhere, which in turn helped the city to become a major European financial centre. In nearby Worms (1487) and Mainz (1515), expulsions ordered by the local bishops were cancelled by the Emperors, who wanted to preserve the remains of their Jewish tax base. Worms' Jewish cemetery has been used continuously from the 11th century until 1911. Many Ashkenazi also settled in the German countryside, where they especially focused on cattle and horse trade, though may of them became impoverished.

    However, coming back to the issue of Yiddish, any direct relation of Eastern European to Rhine-Main Ashkenazi is rather unlikely. Rhine-Main dialects haven't fully taken part in the Celtic softenting of "ch" into "sh", but also show no signs of the Alemannic hardening into "kh". I definitely think that Yiddish evolved somewhere around Basel, Strasbourg and Freiburg, and probably rather in the 13th/ 14th century than before the 1st Crusade. Berne (pogroms in 1294 and 1348, expulsion 1427) and Zurich (expulsion 1436, but no pogroms before) would be even more plausible accent-wise. Here, we are also talking 13/14th century; the first Jewish community in Switzerland was recorded in 1213.



    That should indicate (post-) Khazar Jewish settlement, of which I am quite sure that it took place (and I think there are also a few genetic traces of it). Wikipedia names a 9th century letter from Ruthenia as first evidence of Knaanic - time-wise and geographically quite closely connected to the Khazars. Unfortunately, Ruthenia has not been covered by any of the genetic studies that we are discussing in this thread. In the 12/13th century, i.e. before the start of the German colonisation, coins with Hebrew letters were minted in Kalisz, Poland. That suggests that Jews were anything but irrelevant in the High Medieval Polish business society. However, I would assume they mostly settled in the towns and cities (as, e.g., Georgian Jews did), not in the countryside. This also implies that their genetic traces, if existing, should rather be searched for in those cities than in remote valleys. [ This valley (link), might be an exception, and I would be really curious about the results if it ever became DNA-sampled]
    http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Knaanic_language

    Very interesting, thanks for the info.

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    Quote Originally Posted by FrankN View Post
    (Knaanic) should indicate (post-) Khazar Jewish settlement, of which I am quite sure that it took place (and I think there are also a few genetic traces of it). Wikipedia names a 9th century letter from Ruthenia as first evidence of Knaanic - time-wise and geographically quite closely connected to the Khazars. Unfortunately, Ruthenia has not been covered by any of the genetic studies that we are discussing in this thread.
    This is one of the places where I would strongly suspect that genetic traces of Khazar Jews might be found: http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Halicz
    Halych (Ukrainian: Галич, Halych; Russian: Галич, Galich, German: Halytsch, Polish: Halicz) is a historic city on the Dniester River in western Ukraine. The town gave its name to the historic province and the Kingdom of Galicia–Volhynia, of which it was the capital until the early 14th century, when the seat of the local princes was moved to Lviv. (..)
    The origin of the Slavic toponym "Halych" is after the Khwalis/Kaliz/Khalisioi who occupied the area from the time of the Magyars. (..)
    According to excavated finds, the population of Halych became especially significant from 8-9 c. AD. (..)
    In 1870, the population of Halicz was 4142, including 1609 Roman Catholics, 1690 Greek-Catholics, and 839 Jews.
    On the Khwals, after which Halych has been named, Wipedia notes (link in the quote above):
    The Chalyzians or Khalyzians or Khalis or Khwalis (Arabic: Khwarezmian, Byzantine Greek: Χαλίσιοι, Khalisioi, Magyar: Kaliz (pronounced Kalish)) were a people mentioned by the 12th-century Byzantine historian John Kinnamos.

    Kinnamos in his epitome twice mentions Khalisioi in the Hungarian army. He first describes them as practising Mosaic law; though whether they were actually Jews is unclear because other editions state that they were Muslims. They were said to have fought against the Byzantine Empire as allies of the tribes of Dalmatia in 1154, during Manuel Comnenus's campaign in the Balkans.
    Prior to the years 889–92 some Khalis and Kabars (Kavars) of the Khazar realm had joined the Hungarian (Magyar) federation that had conquered and settled in Hungary. Another group had joined the Pechenegs. Al-Bakri (1014–1094) states that around 1068 A.D. there were considerable numbers of al-Khalis amongst the nomadic Muslim Pechenegs (Hungarian: Besenyő), that lived around the southern steppes of Russia.
    He also mentions that the original al-Khalis living within the Khazar realm may have been foreign slaves from Byzantine Constantinople and/or other lands. The Pechenegs gave them the choice of staying in their country, where they could inter-marry or leave for another country of their choice. Anna Komnena in her Alexiad mentions a Petcheneg chief named Khalis.

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    Quote Originally Posted by FrankN View Post
    This is one of the places where I would strongly suspect that genetic traces of Khazar Jews might be found: http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Halicz

    On the Khwals, after which Halych has been named, Wipedia notes (link in the quote above):
    My maternal grandpa's parents came from the not so far Boryslaw, in Galicia, west of Lwow (now Lviv). Would there be some traces there?

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    Quote Originally Posted by John Doe View Post
    My maternal grandpa's parents came from the not so far Boryslaw, in Galicia, west of Lwow (now Lviv). Would there be some traces there?
    No idea, I have never been there. Galicia in general, and Lviv in particular, used to be a centre of Eastern European Judaism, but the holocaust, resettlement following Galicia's annexation by the USSR, and the post-1990 exodus of remaining Jews to Israel, the USA and elsewhere may have eroded many traces. In any case, from all I have heard, Lviv seems to be a nice city with a lot of flair. The old town is listed as UNESCO World Heritage site. Why not go there and see what you still can find? Ukraine should be cheap these days, and Lviv is several hundred km away from Crimea and Donetsk. It also doesn't appear to be much of a problem to get there from Poland, and Krakow seems another place well worth a visit...

    http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Lw%C3%B3w_Ghetto

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    Quote Originally Posted by FrankN View Post
    No idea, I have never been there. Galicia in general, and Lviv in particular, used to be a centre of Eastern European Judaism, but the holocaust, resettlement following Galicia's annexation by the USSR, and the post-1990 exodus of remaining Jews to Israel, the USA and elsewhere may have eroded many traces. In any case, from all I have heard, Lviv seems to be a nice city with a lot of flair. The old town is listed as UNESCO World Heritage site. Why not go there and see what you still can find? Ukraine should be cheap these days, and Lviv is several hundred km away from Crimea and Donetsk. It also doesn't appear to be much of a problem to get there from Poland, and Krakow seems another place well worth a visit...

    http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Lw%C3%B3w_Ghetto
    Alright thanks, but my family didn't come from the big city i.e Lwow, they came from a smaller town called "Boryslaw" (now Borislav), those that didn't leave for England and later Australia probably died during the war (WW2), I read that in June 1941 the Nazis captured Boryslaw, the Jews were rounded up and escorted to the nearby forest, where they were shot, I suppose that's how some of my relatives ended up. But yeah, my point is that they came from a rural area of Eastern Galicia.

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    Quote Originally Posted by John Doe View Post
    Alright thanks, but my family didn't come from the big city i.e Lwow, they came from a smaller town called "Boryslaw" (now Borislav), those that didn't leave for England and later Australia probably died during the war (WW2), I read that in June 1941 the Nazis captured Boryslaw, the Jews were rounded up and escorted to the nearby forest, where they were shot, I suppose that's how some of my relatives ended up. But yeah, my point is that they came from a rural area of Eastern Galicia.
    Sorry to hear about your family. I can assure you that none of my close relatives had anything to do with Galicia. My grandfather actually supported his Jewish neighbours in Hamburg, and the sons, who had emigrated to Latin America, in return helped him to re-start his business after WW II. My cousin 2nd degree was married to this lady's brother: http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Stefanie_Zweig (I only met him once, when still a teenager, but have seen my cousin 3rd degree, a non-practicing Ashkenazi, occasionally).
    My grandfather-in-law, OTOH, had been in Galicia as German soldier. He spent several years in Siberia as Russian POW, and never talked to my father-in-law about the war and his time as POW. Quite an unfortunate chapter of Jewish and German history!

    In any case, I had understood your family was from Borislaw, not Lviv. I just thought if you decided to delve into your family history, see if your grandparent's house is still standing, walk to that forest, etc., it might be good to know that there are more pleasant places nearby.

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    Quote Originally Posted by FrankN View Post
    Sorry to hear about your family. I can assure you that none of my close relatives had anything to do with Galicia. My grandfather actually supported his Jewish neighbours in Hamburg, and the sons, who had emigrated to Latin America, in return helped him to re-start his business after WW II. My cousin 2nd degree was married to this lady's brother: http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Stefanie_Zweig (I only met him once, when still a teenager, but have seen my cousin 3rd degree, a non-practicing Ashkenazi, occasionally).
    My grandfather-in-law, OTOH, had been in Galicia as German soldier. He spent several years in Siberia as Russian POW, and never talked to my father-in-law about the war and his time as POW. Quite an unfortunate chapter of Jewish and German history!

    In any case, I had understood your family was from Borislaw, not Lviv. I just thought if you decided to delve into your family history, see if your grandparent's house is still standing, walk to that forest, etc., it might be good to know that there are more pleasant places nearby.

    Thanks for the kind words and the information. It's alright, even if some of your relatives had something to do with it (which they don't) it doesn't mean it's your fault, also considering the fact that your relatives were in fact indifferent or even opposed to Nazism from what I can assume. As for your relative in the Wehrmacht (correct me if I'm wrong), well I reckon conscription existed in Germany during the war, that's okay (if I was in his position, I'd probably not resist either), in fact, my relative from Galicia (whose still alive, he's 92), was a Soviet officer during the battle of Stalingrad, he was in charge of an armoured train which carried anti aircraft guns (and POWs), he was wounded and sent to Moscow, he then escaped (even though during his time in the Red army where everyone spoke Russian, he always, to this day, considers himself Polish) to England, from there to Australia and then to Israel where he opened the first train museum.
    Indeed, it's quite an unfortunate part, but it's possible to start anew! In fact, it's already happening, many Israeli Jews come to work in Germany, and Germans also have the ability to work in Israel (there's an agreement between the 2 countries), many Jews of German descent are reclaiming their citizenship or their ancestors citizenship. I hoped Germany would win the world cup after Australia lost. ;)

    Also, the relative I typed about's dad was in a Polish regiment in the Austro-Hungarian army during world war 1, of which I'm very proud of, unfortunately he was murdered during world war 2, but never mind that. Yeah Lviv is geographically close to Boryslaw, and it was a center of Jewish Hasidism before the war (although from what I know, the last religious generation on my Galician side was quite a long time ago, in fact, the last religious generation on any part of my family was a long time ago, my grandma still claims to believe in god and refuses to eat pork, but apparently during the last Passover I ate Bacon and shrimps without even being aware twas Passover, my grandma insisted we read the Hagada, but non of us really knew what to do and what to read, I reckon the only thing that keeps me Jewish is that I'm Ashkenazi genetically). Galicia was (and still is) a diverse area, Poles, Ukrainians, Jews, Germans, Romany, Tatars etc.
    I might go there one day, hopefully, but I don't know if it's such a good idea to visit the Ukraine ATM, even though it's the far Western part of the Ukraine (the area was predominantly Polish until 1945), I suppose I'll have to wait a little bit.

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    1 out of 1 members found this post helpful.
    Even though the Eastern European ancestry among Ashkenazi Jews is supposedly low, here's a quote from Behar's 2013 study (http://digitalcommons.wayne.edu/cgi/...ol_preprints): "Figure 6 reports the mean genomic sharing between Ashkenazi Jews and the 11 population groups, and Supplemental Table 2 gives p-values for tests of the null hypotheses of equal mean
    IBD sharing with Ashkenazi Jews for pairs of population groups. The greatest level of sharing
    was observed with Sephardi Jews, considerably greater than with other populations. Substantial
    sharing with Eastern Europeans was also observed, though at a much lower level. Sharing with
    most other populations was lower still, and with Caucasus populations, the level of sharing was
    similar to that observed for the Middle East. In accordance with the results from other analyses,
    the IBD sharing of Caucasus populations with Ashkenazi Jews was relatively low".

    What's the explanation for that?

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    Quote Originally Posted by John Doe View Post
    Even though the Eastern European ancestry among Ashkenazi Jews is supposedly low, here's a quote from Behar's 2013 study (http://digitalcommons.wayne.edu/cgi/...ol_preprints): "Figure 6 reports the mean genomic sharing between Ashkenazi Jews and the 11 population groups, and Supplemental Table 2 gives p-values for tests of the null hypotheses of equal mean
    IBD sharing with Ashkenazi Jews for pairs of population groups. The greatest level of sharing
    was observed with Sephardi Jews, considerably greater than with other populations. Substantial
    sharing with Eastern Europeans was also observed, though at a much lower level. Sharing with
    most other populations was lower still, and with Caucasus populations, the level of sharing was
    similar to that observed for the Middle East. In accordance with the results from other analyses,
    the IBD sharing of Caucasus populations with Ashkenazi Jews was relatively low".

    What's the explanation for that?
    In Georgia, they appear to have sampled Svaneti - a very isolated plateau that includes Europe's highest village, Svanetian is a specific language that is distinct to, though related to Georgian. iWhen I worked in Georgia in the late 1990s, (when the roads were still rather poor), it was some 8-9 hours drive from Kutaisi, which would be the closest Jewish community. I am pretty sure, had they sampled any place in Georgia that is within - say - 50 km distance to a Jewish community, results would have been different.
    Your link is broken, but if I remember correctly, they also didn't sample SE Poland or Galizia. In fact, the only East European place with significant historically attested Jewish population in their study appears to have been Lithuania. They also didn't sample the Rhineland, Belgium and the Netherlands. As such, one may interpret the results as an indication of how urban or rural medieval Jews have been - and the results indicate a bit of rural East European Jews, but otherwise a concentration of Jewish settlement in cities and towns along the major trade routes. Once somebody starts to sample these towns or their periphery, we are going to get meaningful results.

    http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Svaneti

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    Quote Originally Posted by FrankN View Post
    In Georgia, they appear to have sampled Svaneti - a very isolated plateau that includes Europe's highest village, Svanetian is a specific language that is distinct to, though related to Georgian. iWhen I worked in Georgia in the late 1990s, (when the roads were still rather poor), it was some 8-9 hours drive from Kutaisi, which would be the closest Jewish community. I am pretty sure, had they sampled any place in Georgia that is within - say - 50 km distance to a Jewish community, results would have been different.
    Your link is broken, but if I remember correctly, they also didn't sample SE Poland or Galizia. In fact, the only East European place with significant historically attested Jewish population in their study appears to have been Lithuania. They also didn't sample the Rhineland, Belgium and the Netherlands. As such, one may interpret the results as an indication of how urban or rural medieval Jews have been - and the results indicate a bit of rural East European Jews, but otherwise a concentration of Jewish settlement in cities and towns along the major trade routes. Once somebody starts to sample these towns or their periphery, we are going to get meaningful results.

    http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Svaneti

    So your point is that because Behar didn't sample Periphery Jews or indeed any Jewish population other than those in Lithuania, and because he didn't sample the Rhineland, therefore this study may not be entirely reliable or meaningful to Jews who have no ancestry from Lithuania?


    P.S Just to make sure, here's the link, I hope this one isn't broken.


    http://digitalcommons.wayne.edu/cgi/...biol_preprints

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    I have another question. So AJs plot between Cypriots and Greeks, alongside Sicilians and Maltese, so we're a pre Islamic east Mediterranean population, but then a question arises, are we European? Are we Middle eastern? Maybe something in the middle? If we're Middle eastern where does that put Sicilians and Maltese (who also lack WHG ancestry and plot in the gap)?

    Thanks in advance. :)

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    Quote Originally Posted by John Doe View Post
    I have another question. So AJs plot between Cypriots and Greeks, alongside Sicilians and Maltese, so we're a pre Islamic east Mediterranean population, but then a question arises, are we European? Are we Middle eastern? Maybe something in the middle? If we're Middle eastern where does that put Sicilians and Maltese (who also lack WHG ancestry and plot in the gap)?

    Thanks in advance. :)
    Politically or by self designation they are Europeans. Genetically however, there is no one "pure" to be declared only European. We have to look at this issue through spectrum glasses, otherwise we will always argue about the "proper" labels.
    The biggest problem in it is our human nature loving to compartmentalize everything in effort to understand the world, or like in this case, to find one's "place" on the planet and a tribe to belong.
    Be wary of people who tend to glorify the past, underestimate the present, and demonize the future.

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    1 out of 1 members found this post helpful.
    Quote Originally Posted by John Doe View Post
    So your point is that because Behar didn't sample Periphery Jews or indeed any Jewish population other than those in Lithuania, and because he didn't sample the Rhineland, therefore this study may not be entirely reliable or meaningful to Jews who have no ancestry from Lithuania?


    P.S Just to make sure, here's the link, I hope this one isn't broken.


    http://digitalcommons.wayne.edu/cgi/...biol_preprints
    That link works.
    My point is not that Behar didn't sample Periphery Jews, my point is that he sampled periphery non-Jews to compare Jews with, just to find out the two don't have much of common ancestry. If you look at Georgian Jews, according to Behar they are extremely close to non-Jewish Armenians, much closer than to Druze, Syrian Jews or Georgians (Figure 4 in the Annex). The fact that Georgian Jews, after 2,500 years in the country, are genetically so far away from non-Jewish Georgians signifies to me that their non-Jewish Georgian sample is flawed. And, while Behar finds signals of Eastern European admixture in AJ, I feel that their sampling could have focused closer on those regions where we know sizeable Jewish populations to have existed, e.g. Galizia.

    In any case, according to their Figure 4, AJs don't "plot between Cypriots and Greeks, alongside Sicilians and Maltese". Eastern AJs are genetically closest to Sicily and Abruzzo, closer than to any other Jews, including Western AJ! And Western AJ are genetically closest to Sicilians, closer than to any other Jews, including Eastern AJ. Those diagrams tell the story pretty clearly: Western AJ lived for a long time in Sicily, then moved to Western Central Europe, where they picked up some (anyway quite similar) Sephardic ancestry. Eastern AJ stayed somewhat longer in Southern Italy (hence the high genetic similarity to Abruzzi), and picked up comparatively less of Sephardic ancestry. They also are closer related to Greeks than Western AJ, which may indicate a bit of Byzantine Jewish inflow into Eastern Europe.

    I personally think the opportunity to play with several possible identities has a lot of charme. Of course, Jews are Levantine - but most Europeans also have substantial Levantine ancestry. Does it make a difference that the non-Jewish Levantine ancestors already arrived in Europe some 8-9,000 years ago, and the Jews only some 2,000 years ago? It's your decision, but I think none of us will be able to name that forefather who first set foot on the European continent.
    AJ are obviously Sicilian / South Italian - most likely ancestral, but in any case culturally: Levantine trading tradition, Hellenism, post-Roman empire, cultural (and linguistic) links to the Arab world, economically and intellectually flowering during the early middle ages, until the inquisition took over.
    AJ are germanicised - linguistically (even English is a Germanic language), Western AJ also geographically.
    Eastern AJ are of course Central-Eastern European, part of that mish-mash of Slavic, Baltic, German and Yiddish languages; Judaism, Catholicism, Protestantism and Orthodox Christianity - the Babylon of the 2nd millennium AD.
    Last but not least, AJ are global citizens, with a millennium-old tradition of wandering between and temporarily settling in the most important urban centres of their times, and connecting them commercially and intellectually.
    Now choose what you want to be....

    One last note on the Behar study: Their admixture graph (Supplemental Figure 3) for K=17 maximises AJ ancestry as red, and may be interpreted as the genetic footprint AJ have left in their various host populations: None in French Basques, very little in Sardinians, well present in other Italians, a little less in the Eastern Mediterranean, and a small but visible trace in Eastern Europe.

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    Quote Originally Posted by LeBrok View Post
    Politically or by self designation they are Europeans. Genetically however, there is no one "pure" to be declared only European. We have to look at this issue through spectrum glasses, otherwise we will always argue about the "proper" labels.
    The biggest problem in it is our human nature loving to compartmentalize everything in effort to understand the world, or like in this case, to find one's "place" on the planet and a tribe to belong.

    I see... Thanks for the answer! I guess no one is really pure anything genetically. :)

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    Quote Originally Posted by FrankN View Post
    That link works.
    My point is not that Behar didn't sample Periphery Jews, my point is that he sampled periphery non-Jews to compare Jews with, just to find out the two don't have much of common ancestry. If you look at Georgian Jews, according to Behar they are extremely close to non-Jewish Armenians, much closer than to Druze, Syrian Jews or Georgians (Figure 4 in the Annex). The fact that Georgian Jews, after 2,500 years in the country, are genetically so far away from non-Jewish Georgians signifies to me that their non-Jewish Georgian sample is flawed. And, while Behar finds signals of Eastern European admixture in AJ, I feel that their sampling could have focused closer on those regions where we know sizeable Jewish populations to have existed, e.g. Galizia.

    In any case, according to their Figure 4, AJs don't "plot between Cypriots and Greeks, alongside Sicilians and Maltese". Eastern AJs are genetically closest to Sicily and Abruzzo, closer than to any other Jews, including Western AJ! And Western AJ are genetically closest to Sicilians, closer than to any other Jews, including Eastern AJ. Those diagrams tell the story pretty clearly: Western AJ lived for a long time in Sicily, then moved to Western Central Europe, where they picked up some (anyway quite similar) Sephardic ancestry. Eastern AJ stayed somewhat longer in Southern Italy (hence the high genetic similarity to Abruzzi), and picked up comparatively less of Sephardic ancestry. They also are closer related to Greeks than Western AJ, which may indicate a bit of Byzantine Jewish inflow into Eastern Europe.

    I personally think the opportunity to play with several possible identities has a lot of charme. Of course, Jews are Levantine - but most Europeans also have substantial Levantine ancestry. Does it make a difference that the non-Jewish Levantine ancestors already arrived in Europe some 8-9,000 years ago, and the Jews only some 2,000 years ago? It's your decision, but I think none of us will be able to name that forefather who first set foot on the European continent.
    AJ are obviously Sicilian / South Italian - most likely ancestral, but in any case culturally: Levantine trading tradition, Hellenism, post-Roman empire, cultural (and linguistic) links to the Arab world, economically and intellectually flowering during the early middle ages, until the inquisition took over.
    AJ are germanicised - linguistically (even English is a Germanic language), Western AJ also geographically.
    Eastern AJ are of course Central-Eastern European, part of that mish-mash of Slavic, Baltic, German and Yiddish languages; Judaism, Catholicism, Protestantism and Orthodox Christianity - the Babylon of the 2nd millennium AD.
    Last but not least, AJ are global citizens, with a millennium-old tradition of wandering between and temporarily settling in the most important urban centres of their times, and connecting them commercially and intellectually.
    Now choose what you want to be....

    One last note on the Behar study: Their admixture graph (Supplemental Figure 3) for K=17 maximises AJ ancestry as red, and may be interpreted as the genetic footprint AJ have left in their various host populations: None in French Basques, very little in Sardinians, well present in other Italians, a little less in the Eastern Mediterranean, and a small but visible trace in Eastern Europe.

    I see... Thanks for answering both of my questions! in truth I wouldn't be surprised if I have Sicilian/South Italian/Abruzzo Italian ancestry, on Gedmatch I plot next to them all the time! Indeed, they seem to be the closest populations to me on Gedmatch, in some cases closer than other AJs. I'm pretty sure I'm mostly Eastern Ashkenazi, my entire maternal family came either from Galizia or the Posnen region which was in the eastern part of Prussia, paternally my ancestors came from Germany and Poland. Yes I suppose it is quite complex, but I guess the best way to sum it up without entering a lecture would just be Ashkenazi Jewish. I suppose it's not much of a difference, also if AJs do have Sicilian/South Italian/Abruzzo Italian ancestry, then we also have pre historic EEF ancestry. BTW Behar's study wasn't the study that claimed AJs plot between Cypriots and Greeks, twas this study:
    http://arxiv.org/ftp/arxiv/papers/1312/1312.6639.pdf

    So I suppose Behar's study, while not perfect, is reliable?

    Anyway, thanks. :)


    P.S There's an interesting free program called Spatial Ancestry Analysis (or SPA), I think that 23andme raw data is required, it can place you on a place in the world according to your raw data, and I was placed in the middle of the Tyrrhenian sea, southwest of Naples, northwest of Palermo and east of Cagliari. Here's the link:
    http://genetics.cs.ucla.edu/spa/

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    Quote Originally Posted by John Doe View Post
    Even though the Eastern European ancestry among Ashkenazi Jews is supposedly low, here's a quote from Behar's 2013 study (http://digitalcommons.wayne.edu/cgi/...ol_preprints): "Figure 6 reports the mean genomic sharing between Ashkenazi Jews and the 11 population groups, and Supplemental Table 2 gives p-values for tests of the null hypotheses of equal mean
    IBD sharing with Ashkenazi Jews for pairs of population groups. The greatest level of sharing
    was observed with Sephardi Jews, considerably greater than with other populations. Substantial
    sharing with Eastern Europeans was also observed, though at a much lower level. Sharing with
    most other populations was lower still, and with Caucasus populations, the level of sharing was
    similar to that observed for the Middle East. In accordance with the results from other analyses,
    the IBD sharing of Caucasus populations with Ashkenazi Jews was relatively low".

    What's the explanation for that?
    The explanation is that Ashkenazim have very little Khazar ancestry (Chuvash+North Caucasus). They are most likely a mix of Sephardim and North Slavs (85% and 15% respectively)

    Quote Originally Posted by John Doe View Post
    I see... Thanks for answering both of my questions! in truth I wouldn't be surprised if I have Sicilian/South Italian/Abruzzo Italian ancestry, on Gedmatch I plot next to them all the time! Indeed, they seem to be the closest populations to me on Gedmatch, in some cases closer than other AJs. I'm pretty sure I'm mostly Eastern Ashkenazi, my entire maternal family came either from Galizia or the Posnen region which was in the eastern part of Prussia, paternally my ancestors came from Germany and Poland. Yes I suppose it is quite complex, but I guess the best way to sum it up without entering a lecture would just be Ashkenazi Jewish. I suppose it's not much of a difference, also if AJs do have Sicilian/South Italian/Abruzzo Italian ancestry, then we also have pre historic EEF ancestry. BTW Behar's study wasn't the study that claimed AJs plot between Cypriots and Greeks, twas this study:
    http://arxiv.org/ftp/arxiv/papers/1312/1312.6639.pdf

    So I suppose Behar's study, while not perfect, is reliable?

    Anyway, thanks. :)


    P.S There's an interesting free program called Spatial Ancestry Analysis (or SPA), I think that 23andme raw data is required, it can place you on a place in the world according to your raw data, and I was placed in the middle of the Tyrrhenian sea, southwest of Naples, northwest of Palermo and east of Cagliari. Here's the link:
    http://genetics.cs.ucla.edu/spa/
    The oracle software from Gedmatch is not reliable.

    1) Because it is based on the ADMIXTURE analysis, which is an approximation of the genome.

    2) Because it doesn't count the FST distances between the components.

    Indeed AJs have a significant amount of African like ancestry (10% of Red Sea+SSA+NE African) which is enough to pull them away from Europeans. The best way is to look at a Global PCA plot (based on the genome). Like this from Behar et al. 2013.



    The plot on the left show the first two most significant components. AJs (labeled as AshJ) are closest to North African and Sephardi Jews, then Sicilians (ItS), Armenians (Arm), Druzes (Dru) and Cypriots (Cyp).

    Other Italians and South Europeans are quite far from the AJs.

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    Quote Originally Posted by joeyc View Post
    The explanation is that Ashkenazim have very little Khazar ancestry (Chuvash+North Caucasus). They are most likely a mix of Sephardim and North Slavs (85% and 15% respectively)



    The oracle software from Gedmatch is not reliable.

    1) Because it is based on the ADMIXTURE analysis, which is an approximation of the genome.

    2) Because it doesn't count the FST distances between the components.

    Indeed AJs have a significant amount of African like ancestry (10% of Red Sea+SSA+NE African) which is enough to pull them away from Europeans. The best way is to look at a Global PCA plot (based on the genome). Like this from Behar et al. 2013.



    The plot on the left show the first two most significant components. AJs (labeled as AshJ) are closest to North African and Sephardi Jews, then Sicilians (ItS), Armenians (Arm), Druzes (Dru) and Cypriots (Cyp).

    Other Italians and South Europeans are quite far from the AJs.

    I read Behar's study, he did indeed note that AJs share closest genetic similarities with Sephardi and north African Jews, followed by Sicilians, Cypriots, Greeks, Armenians, Druze etc.
    I already thought Gedmatch isn't entirely reliable, but I wasn't entirely certain.


    This leads me to my final question,what does that make Ashkenazis? Does it make us simply an east Mediterranean population with very little European admixture, with the only arguable European population we share genetic similarities with being Sicilians because of Phoenician influence? Or is there European admixture? Perhaps in the form of Slavic admixture due to IBD sharing with east Europeans being the highest after SJs?

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    Ashkenazim should have a lot of European Mtdna. Their Y-dna is mostly Levantine and Turkic AFAIK.

    Sicilians have a non trivial amount of Moorish ancestry beside West Asian admix rich in ANE like ancestry from the late neolitich/copper age.

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    Quote Originally Posted by joeyc View Post
    Ashkenazim should have a lot of European Mtdna. Their Y-dna is mostly Levantine and Turkic AFAIK.

    Sicilians have a non trivial amount of Moorish ancestry beside West Asian admix rich in ANE like ancestry from the late neolitich/copper age.
    Yeah that's true, except for about 40% of AJs (including myself) who belong to 4 specific subclades that are exclusive to AJs and seem to be most likely of West Asian, specifically Levantine, origin, most AJs belong to mainly European maternal lineages like the plain H etc. But if you didn't know, Y-dna and Mtdna represent only a fraction of ones ancestry, the real ancestry is in the autosomal DNA, and that seems to show AJs plot in the gap between Europe and the near east, between Greeks and Cypriots (according to the Lizardis 2014 study), alongside Sicilians and Maltese, whether that's due to European admixture/genetic isolation (or both reasons) that we plot there rather than next to Cypriots (who probably best represent pre Islamic Levantines), I'm not certain, I just wanted to know what plotting in the gap, and sharing closest genetic similarities with Sicilians, Greeks, Armenians and Druze (according to the Behar 2013 study) means, does that make us European? Near eastern? Both? Non of the above? What does that make traditionally European populations such as Sicilians and Maltese? What does that make Cypriots? These are questions that I'm not entirely sure there's a definitive answer to at the moment.


    P.S May I please have the link to those plots? I don't seem to find them on Behar's official study page.

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    You have to download the paper in this link.

    http://digitalcommons.wayne.edu/humbiol_preprints/41/



    The most likely explaination is that the original Jews were similar to modern Druzes. The Mizrahim later mixed with Iranic/Caucasian people while the Sephardim/Ashkenazim mixed with Iberians and to a much lesser extent North Slavs, Khazars and North West Africans IMHO.

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    Country: Australia



    Quote Originally Posted by joeyc View Post
    You have to download the paper in this link.

    http://digitalcommons.wayne.edu/humbiol_preprints/41/



    The most likely explaination is that the original Jews were similar to modern Druzes. The Mizrahim later mixed with Iranic/Caucasian people while the Sephardim/Ashkenazim mixed with Iberians and to a much lesser extent North Slavs, Khazars and North West Africans IMHO.
    Alright. As you can see this is the Lizardis plot, which clearly shows AJs plot between Cypriots and Greeks, alongside Maltese and Sicilians, whether this is the result of admixture with Iberians, and to a much lesser extent northern Slavs, Khazars and northwest Africans, I don't know, however, that would explain why on K13 I get this:


    Admix Results (sorted):


    # Population Percent
    1 East_Med 33.95
    2 North_Atlantic 21.11
    3 West_Med 19.23
    4 West_Asian 13.53
    5 Baltic 5.45
    6 Red_Sea 4.46
    7 Northeast_African 0.86
    8 East_Asian 0.86
    9 Oceanian 0.33
    10 Sub-Saharan 0.22


    Single Population Sharing:


    # Population (source) Distance
    1 South_Italian 4.94
    2 Ashkenazi 7.45
    3 Sephardic_Jewish 7.66
    4 Greek 9.29
    5 Tuscan 11.95
    6 Cyprian 16.41
    7 North_Italian 18.4
    8 Lebanese_Muslim 19.4
    9 Bulgarian 20.53
    10 Syrian 20.84
    11 Turkish 21.47
    12 Romanian 22.17
    13 Lebanese_Druze 22.23
    14 Samaritan 22.5
    15 Palestinian 22.83
    16 Jordanian 22.97
    17 Lebanese_Christian 23.41
    18 Algerian 24.9
    19 Azeri_Jewish 25.69
    20 Spanish_Extremadura 25.71


    Mixed Mode Population Sharing:


    # Primary Population (source) Secondary Population (source) Distance
    1 55.1% Lebanese_Druze + 44.9% Spanish_Valencia @ 2.25
    2 54.2% Lebanese_Druze + 45.8% Spanish_Andalucia @ 2.4
    3 56.2% Lebanese_Druze + 43.8% Spanish_Castilla_La_Mancha @ 2.69
    4 58.2% Lebanese_Druze + 41.8% Spanish_Aragon @ 2.71
    5 55.8% Lebanese_Druze + 44.2% Spanish_Cataluna @ 2.74
    6 58.2% Lebanese_Druze + 41.8% Spanish_Cantabria @ 2.76
    7 59.7% Lebanese_Druze + 40.3% Southwest_French @ 2.79
    8 54.8% North_Italian + 45.2% Lebanese_Druze @ 2.82
    9 54.3% Lebanese_Druze + 45.7% Spanish_Murcia @ 2.87
    10 65.5% Tuscan + 34.5% Lebanese_Druze @ 2.87
    11 55.8% Lebanese_Druze + 44.2% Spanish_Castilla_Y_Leon @ 3.17
    12 65.9% Lebanese_Druze + 34.1% French_Basque @ 3.24
    13 53.7% Lebanese_Druze + 46.3% Spanish_Extremadura @ 3.31
    14 54% Lebanese_Druze + 46% Portuguese @ 3.4
    15 85.8% Sephardic_Jewish + 14.2% Southeast_English @ 3.84
    16 85% Sephardic_Jewish + 15% German @ 3.84
    17 54.6% Lebanese_Christian + 45.4% Spanish_Cataluna @ 3.86
    18 55.5% Lebanese_Druze + 44.5% Spanish_Galicia @ 3.94
    19 86.5% Sephardic_Jewish + 13.5% Danish @ 3.95
    20 86.6% Sephardic_Jewish + 13.4% Orcadian @ 3.95



    P.S As for your comment on the Mizrahis, I agree, considering the fact that they plot next to Christian Assyrians, Kurds etc.

    P.P.S Thanks for the link. :)
    Last edited by John Doe; 23-07-14 at 09:34.

  23. #223
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    Quote Originally Posted by joeyc View Post
    The explanation is that Ashkenazim have very little Khazar ancestry (Chuvash+North Caucasus). They are most likely a mix of Sephardim and North Slavs (85% and 15% respectively)



    The oracle software from Gedmatch is not reliable.

    1) Because it is based on the ADMIXTURE analysis, which is an approximation of the genome.

    2) Because it doesn't count the FST distances between the components.

    Indeed AJs have a significant amount of African like ancestry (10% of Red Sea+SSA+NE African) which is enough to pull them away from Europeans. The best way is to look at a Global PCA plot (based on the genome). Like this from Behar et al. 2013.



    The plot on the left show the first two most significant components. AJs (labeled as AshJ) are closest to North African and Sephardi Jews, then Sicilians (ItS), Armenians (Arm), Druzes (Dru) and Cypriots (Cyp).

    Other Italians and South Europeans are quite far from the AJs.
    What's the difference between the plot on the left and the one on the right? The one on the right shows AJs plotting between South Italians and Cypriots, the one on the left strangely puts AJs away from the gap and closer to Iraqi Jews than to Sephardi Jews and Italqim, that doesn't seem right...

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    1) He is called Lazaridis. Jews have a very high mean verbal IQ, PLEASE!

    2) You seem to be closer to Druzes than to Valencians. But then Eurogenes and its oracle sofware are amateur stuff, so not vey reliable.

    Keep in mind that Behar kept only the longest shared IBD segments, which means that the IBD analysis shows only the most recent admixture events (last 500 years or so).

    From the paper.

    IBD was analyzed using GERMLINE 1.5.1 (Gusev and others, 2009) on the phased unpruned data.We ran GERMLINE with default parameters (-min_m 3 –bits 128 –err_hom 4 –err_het 1) to detect
    pairwise IBD sharing for all pairs of study samples. Following previous work (Gusev and others,
    2012), we searched for genomic regions in which sparse SNP coverage yields false positive IBD
    calls, and excised them from the GERMLINE-estimated IBD segments; specially, we divided the
    genome into non-overlapping 1-Mb blocks and excised blocks with <100 SNPs. We then kept
    only the shared IBD segments whose length, following excisions, exceeded 3 Mb. Finally, we
    discarded from the analysis chromosomes 6, 11 and 12, which presented a high level of
    excessive false-positive sharing, similar to effects observed previously (Gusev and others, 2012).
    Regarding the PCA plot.

    Figure 2a presents the first two principal components (PCs) of genetic variation at three levelsof magnification, color-coding the samples by geographic region. The two plots at lower
    magnification indicate that PC placement of most Jewish populations, including the Ashkenazi
    Jews, is far from such geographically distant populations as East Asians, South Asians, and Sub-
    Saharan Africans.
    The Ashkenazi Jewish samples produce a relatively tight cluster that overlaps with someJewish and non-Jewish populations. Among the Jewish populations, Ashkenazi Jews fall closest
    to Italian Jews, Middle Eastern Jews, North African Jews, and Sephardi Jews, positioned
    continuously with other Middle Eastern non-Jewish populations along PC1. Among non-Jewish
    populations, Ashkenazi Jews lie nearest to Armenians, Cypriots, Druze, Greeks, and Sicilians.
    Four Ashkenazi Jews fall outside the main Ashkenazi cluster and lie closer to Europeans.

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    @John Doe the plot on the right shows the first and third important components.

    They are less important. The greatest amount of genetic diversity is showed on the left.

    Keep in mind that it's quite hard to represent a Global PCA plot with just only 2 dimensions. It would be a grossly approximation.

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