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    Jewish people, where they are from?

    Have we ever discussed here about Khazaria, the Eastern European state, and its Khazar rulers that converted to Judaism in the VIII century?

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    The khazars where a Turkic people, is it jews you want to know about or khazars.....? There are varying accounts on the khazars, some say that when their empire collapsed under the pressure from Attila and his Huns and the Black Death, they moved towards Europe becoming today's Ashkenazi Jews, which makes sense since this is certainly the road they traveled from the Middle East to Europe, through the Caucasus. Some maintain that they where a Turkic people, but this is contradictory to the fact that all of khazars a converted to Judaism. As for the origins of Jews, they originally came from the Levantine coast, from a country called Israel, as you may know. The Jews are no "special" or very "homogenous" race as many may think, their just another middle eastern amalgamy of J1 , J2 , E3b and some are R1a or R1b. Regardless of wether it is J1 or J2 about 35-45% of Jewish men are haplogroup J, indicative of middle eastern origins. Another 20-30% are north-African E3b. 10-15 maybe 20% of them are R1b or R1a , European Jews in particular ( Sephardic and Ashkenazi) may have been subjected to Germanic/European blood. There are many different old Jewish communities known as "diasporas" that left Judah and Israel at different times during history due to persecutions or for other reasons. These communities can slightly/moderately differ in their genetic compositions depending on where they moved and which people's they where subjected to. There are also kurdish Jews, Mizrahim jews ( middle-eastern, etc) the Ashkenazi Jews moved from the Caucasus into east-central Europe long ago, the Sephardic Jews somehow reached Iberia (Spain/Portugal) there are also Jews in Yemen etc. predominantly they are a patrilineal amalgamy of J1, J2, E3b and sometimes European elements (R1a/1b) and/or rarer haplogroups, such as G for example ( at lower levels). Their genetic admixture thus indicates a probable middle eastern/ North African mix with later added European blood in certain diaspora communities.

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    Quote Originally Posted by adamo View Post
    khazars.....moved towards Europe becoming today's Ashkenazi Jews, which makes sense
    As about 95% of world's Jewry are Ashkenazi Jews with origins in the Khazar state, only a minority of modern Jews are linked genetically to the ancient "biblical" Jews. According to an Israeli professor Shlomo Sand, the original Jewish genes can be found in the population of modern Palestinians, who after the collapse of the Jewish state converted themselves to a Muslim faith. The mass migration of Jews from Jerusalem after the collapse of Jewish state in the 1st century is only a myth without any historical support.

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    Quote Originally Posted by al-kochol View Post
    As about 95% of world's Jewry are Ashkenazi Jews with origins in the Khazar state, only a minority of modern Jews are linked genetically to the ancient "biblical" Jews. According to an Israeli professor Shlomo Sand, the original Jewish genes can be found in the population of modern Palestinians, who after the collapse of the Jewish state converted themselves to a Muslim faith. The mass migration of Jews from Jerusalem after the collapse of Jewish state in the 1st century is only a myth without any historical support.
    Your figures are outdated.

    In 1939, over 90pc of the World's Jews were Ashkenazi.

    Today the figure is much less, with 26pc being non-Ashkenazi, mostly Mizrahi Jews from Muslim countries, but also Sephardi Jews in the narrowest sense (Spanish and Portuguese descent).

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    Jewish people where they are from

    Some of the confusion probably comes from poor semantics in the US. The terms "ethnic group" and "race" are often used interchangeably here. Thats probably why people in the US sometimes refer to the Jewish ethnic group as a race. Another interesting note about intra-ethnic discrimination in the US. When discrimination happens within the white race its called racism. When discrimination happens within the black race its called colorism.

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    1 out of 1 members found this post helpful.
    no. Palestines are the biblical philistines, or Peleset sub-type of sea people's that migrated out of the Aegean and to the southern levant coast near Israel, they are the philistines of " David and Goliath". With 35-45% of all Jewish men being either major group of hg J, most modern Jews are linked to ancient biblical Jews. This applies for Ashkenazi, Sephardic and middle eastern Jews. Also some hg E3b is also present at appreciable frequencies in Jews. Maternally, haplogroup K has also been linked to Jewish women. Mass migrations of Jews are no myth, there are ancient Jewish communities all across the Middle East ( outside of Israel) Europe and north-Africa. These "diasporas" had different times of movement, some as late as the medieval times/ Middle Ages. "Jewish genes can be found in Palestinians"....if you're referring to haplogroup J, then "Jewish" genes can be found in much more than just Palestine, trust me lollllll. Jewish males have many points of origin as I stated in my last post, although their dominant genetic element is the J combo ( J1+J2). Haplogroup E3b is a close runner-up and certain R1a/R1b elements can also be found depending on which particular "diaspora" we are referring to with the European Jews, obviously, having higher of these elements.

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    2 out of 2 members found this post helpful.
    if we're talking broadly about hg such as J1, J2, E1b1b, then we're talking about afro-semitic speakers, which is the whole north-africa and most of middle-east since the stone-age. It includes civilizations such as Carthage, Egypt, Caananites, Phoenicia, Arabs, Sarachens, Moors, turks etc. However, mass migrations of Israelites at various points in history are not a myth.

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    Quote Originally Posted by kamani View Post
    mass migrations of Israelites at various points in history are not a myth.
    You disagree then with Professor Shlomo Sand. Can you support your thesis statement?

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    Quote Originally Posted by al-kochol View Post
    You disagree then with Professor Shlomo Sand. Can you support your thesis statement?
    I found this in wikipedia, it seems the Khazar theory died a long time ago:
    Genetic studies on Ashkenazi Jewry

    A 1999 study by Hammer et al., published in the Proceedings of the United States National Academy of Sciences compared the Y chromosomes of Ashkenazi, Roman, North African, Kurdish, Near Eastern, Yemenite, and Ethiopian Jews with 16 non-Jewish groups from similar geographic locations. It found that "Despite their long-term residence in different countries and isolation from one another, most Jewish populations were not significantly different from one another at the genetic level... The results support the hypothesis that the paternal gene pools of Jewish communities from Europe, North Africa, and the Middle East descended from a common Middle Eastern ancestral population, and suggest that most Jewish communities have remained relatively isolated from neighboring non-Jewish communities during and after the Diaspora."[138] According to Nicholas Wade "The results accord with Jewish history and tradition and refute theories like those holding that Jewish communities consist mostly of converts from other faiths, or that they are descended from the Khazars, a medieval Turkish tribe that adopted Judaism."[139]

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    Quote Originally Posted by kamani View Post
    I found this in wikipedia, it seems the Khazar theory died a long time ago
    Jewish geneticists and historians obviously do not like the truth about Khazars and are trying to kill the Khazar theory of the origin of Ashkenazi Jews. Almost all today's Jews are Ashkenazi Jews. How then can there be a domination of J over R1a?

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    Correct although J originated strictly in the Middle East whereas E originated in Africa, but you can find some J1 especially in certain North African countries and some E3b in the Middle East.

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    Haplogroup E3b

    Quote Originally Posted by adamo View Post
    Correct although J originated strictly in the Middle East whereas E originated in Africa, but you can find some J1 especially in certain North African countries and some E3b in the Middle East.
    From jogg.info :
    'Unfortunately, misinformation about these haplogroups continues to pervade the public and media. Haplogroup E3b is often incorrectly described as “African,” leaving a misimpression regarding the origin and complex history of this haplogroup. Haplogroup J2, as previously discussed, is often incorrectly equated with J1 and described as “Jewish” or “Semitic,” despite the fact that it is present in a variety of non-Jewish Mediterranean and Northern European populations'

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    Jogg.info
    'It appears that E-M78 migrated from the Middle East to Europe during the Neolithic period. Once it reached the Balkans, a distinctive cluster formed which Cruciani (2004) refers to as the “alpha cluster.” The majority of European E-M78 appears to have originated from this cluster.

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    'In fact, the best candidate for possible E3b Israelite ancestry among Jews is E-M123. This sub-clade occurs in almost the same proportions (approximately 10-12%) among both Ashkenazim and Sephardim (Semino et al. 2004). According to Cruciani (2004), E-M123 probably originated in the Middle East, since it is found in a large majority of the populations from that area, and then back migrated to Ethiopia. He further notes that this sub-clade may have been spread to Europe during the Neolithic agricultural expansion out of the Middle East.' -( jogg.info ).
    It looks like Haplogroup J or J1+J2 are amongst 'majority' Y-DNA of Jewish people,probably, because that was the majority Y-DNA of local population population that lived in the land later named Israel. The 'seed' of 'Jewishness' originated in Y-DNA E that came from North Africa to re-claim the land E originated in.
    That would explain the 'promise' of land of Canaan.
    The same conversion happened to Khazars. Dienekes writes:

    'If Proto-Khazars were similar to present-day Altaians minus haplogroup C, then they would have a frequency of about 59% R1a and 22% Q. Therefore, it seems reasonable that an overall 5/22=22% of such Proto-Khazar elements into the Ashkenazi Jewish populations may be likely. But, the Khazars of Khazaria may themselves have been somewhat mixed with Western Eurasian elements..'
    Khazars' Y-DNA became major factor in European Jews 'problematic' assimilation to local European life style because they were Jewish only in 'label'. They didn't come to 'sit out the prosecution', they came as nomads to 'better place to live'. This why with such resistance 'new Jews' met the very idea to go to the 'promise land'.'Original Jewish' E - haplogroup always wanted to go back again to the 'promised land'. They needed the 'numbers' to accomplish another return. That explains arrogant attitude leaders of Zionist idea had toward reluctant regular Jews who felt fine staying in Europe.Even under strong 'dislike' from local population, that didn't have the benefit of knowing genetic reasons for conflict, 'Khazarians' were not convinced that going to Palestine is better solution.
    If it was known that 'new Jewish' were not responsible for biblical tragedy, it just might shifted conflict to combat 'True Communists' that consisted of multinational array of 'marginals' who were looking to 'corner the market' of political opportunity.
    That's it.

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    Quote Originally Posted by Sonnenburg View Post
    'In fact, the best candidate for possible E3b Israelite ancestry among Jews is E-M123. This sub-clade occurs in almost the same proportions (approximately 10-12%) among both Ashkenazim and Sephardim (Semino et al. 2004). According to Cruciani (2004), E-M123 probably originated in the Middle East, since it is found in a large majority of the populations from that area, and then back migrated to Ethiopia. He further notes that this sub-clade may have been spread to Europe during the Neolithic agricultural expansion out of the Middle East.' -( jogg.info ).
    It looks like Haplogroup J or J1+J2 are amongst 'majority' Y-DNA of Jewish people,probably, because that was the majority Y-DNA of local population population that lived in the land later named Israel. The 'seed' of 'Jewishness' originated in Y-DNA E that came from North Africa to re-claim the land E originated in.
    That would explain the 'promise' of land of Canaan.
    The same conversion happened to Khazars. Dienekes writes:

    'If Proto-Khazars were similar to present-day Altaians minus haplogroup C, then they would have a frequency of about 59% R1a and 22% Q. Therefore, it seems reasonable that an overall 5/22=22% of such Proto-Khazar elements into the Ashkenazi Jewish populations may be likely. But, the Khazars of Khazaria may themselves have been somewhat mixed with Western Eurasian elements..'
    Khazars' Y-DNA became major factor in European Jews 'problematic' assimilation to local European life style because they were Jewish only in 'label'. They didn't come to 'sit out the prosecution', they came as nomads to 'better place to live'. This why with such resistance 'new Jews' met the very idea to go to the 'promise land'.'Original Jewish' E - haplogroup always wanted to go back again to the 'promised land'. They needed the 'numbers' to accomplish another return. That explains arrogant attitude leaders of Zionist idea had toward reluctant regular Jews who felt fine staying in Europe.Even under strong 'dislike' from local population, that didn't have the benefit of knowing genetic reasons for conflict, 'Khazarians' were not convinced that going to Palestine is better solution.
    If it was known that 'new Jewish' were not responsible for biblical tragedy, it just might shifted conflict to combat 'True Communists' that consisted of multinational array of 'marginals' who were looking to 'corner the market' of political opportunity.
    That's it.
    What a load of nonsense, seriously.

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    Quote Originally Posted by Sonnenburg View Post
    From jogg.info :
    'Unfortunately, misinformation about these haplogroups continues to pervade the public and media. Haplogroup E3b is often incorrectly described as “African,” leaving a misimpression regarding the origin and complex history of this haplogroup. Haplogroup J2, as previously discussed, is often incorrectly equated with J1 and described as “Jewish” or “Semitic,” despite the fact that it is present in a variety of non-Jewish Mediterranean and Northern European populations'
    Saying that E3b is "African" is a common shorthand, and a simplified model of reality.

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    Quote Originally Posted by RobertColumbia View Post
    Saying that E3b is "African" is a common shorthand, and a simplified model of reality.
    E3b is now termed E1b1b, which is a very generic term which gives a rather vague description of this haplogroup. This splits further into probably some 40 subclades separated by thousands of years and different routes and histories. As Haplogroups get more refined it is becoming standard to talk about a particular subgroup rather a generic term as what used to have just up to a few years ago. This applies more or less to all Haplogroups.

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    1 out of 1 members found this post helpful.
    It's simply a well known-fact, that Jews where often displaced or migrated themselves, throughout history. The very first "exodus" if you will, was that caused by the assyrians in 722 B.C. when their king, Shalmaneser V conquered northern Israel and many jews where deported to parts of Medea and Persia. Then came the "Babylonian" exiles. In 600 B.C. ( about 2600 years ago) the Babylonias conquered Judea, destroyed the Jewish first temple and exiled the Jews to the city of Babylon, where they where allowed to live as a unified community. A second branch of Jews fled towards Egypt, setting up near the Nile, a decision which in time they would greatly regret. Already by about 600-550 B.C. There where Jewish communities in 3 main locales : Egypt, The city of Babylon and other few middle eastern cities and within Judea itself, modern day Israel. When the Persian empire came to rule under Cyrus circa 540 B.C., he gave the Jews the option to return "en masse" to Judea. Most of the Babylonian Jews decided to stay in Babylon, creating the Mizrahim community of Jews ( Iraqi Jews, Kurdish Jews, iranian Jews etc.) or "middle eastern Jews" outside of Judea of course, where there where still Jews established even there. In 66 B.C., when the Jews of Judaea where governed by the Romans, the "Jewish-Roman" war took place, leading to the destruction of the second temple. Jerusalem was destroyed ad Jews where forbidden to live there. Fast forward to the Middle Ages and there where Ashkenazi Jews established in east-central Europe, Sephardic Jews in Spain/Portugal that also some migrated to north-Africa (Moroccan Jews), the other earlier mentioned communities etc. there are even Yemenite Jews, certain Jewish communities in the Horn of Africa,etc. with all this direct historic and genetic evidence, and the well known presence of long established Jewish communities across Europe, how can one call the presence of Jews out of Israel a "myth"? Have you never heard of Ashkenazi Jews and the ww2 holocaust?
    Last edited by adamo; 27-04-13 at 15:26.

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    Quote Originally Posted by adamo View Post
    It's simply a well known-fact...
    It is also a very well known fact that the father of history Herodotus, who travelled extensively through the whole known to him world (from Egypt to Scythia) in the 5th century BC, did not notice any Jews there.

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    Quote Originally Posted by al-kochol View Post
    It is also a very well known fact that the father of history Herodotus, who traveled extensively through the whole known to him world (from Egypt to Scythia) in the 5th century BC, did not notice any Jews there.
    It's possible that he might not have mentioned them because he felt that their presence was non-noteworthy and obvious to an educated reader. For example, if I go on a road trip to New York and New Jersey and write up a summary of my experiences, am I likely to mention every single ethnic group I find?

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    1 out of 1 members found this post helpful.
    Quote Originally Posted by al-kochol View Post
    It is also a very well known fact that the father of history Herodotus, who travelled extensively through the whole known to him world (from Egypt to Scythia) in the 5th century BC, did not notice any Jews there.
    Why babble about Herodotus while there is ample archeological evidence documenting the presence of the Israelites (and, subsequently, Judeans/Jews) from the LBA onwards?
    That's a bit like saying the Tarascans didn't exist because Bernal Diaz del Castillo failed to notice them, needless to say it's ridiculous.

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    Quote Originally Posted by Semitic Duwa View Post
    Why babble about Herodotus while there is ample archeological evidence documenting the presence of the Israelites (and, subsequently, Judeans/Jews) from the LBA onwards?
    That's a bit like saying the Tarascans didn't exist because Bernal Diaz del Castillo failed to notice them, needless to say it's ridiculous.
    Herodotus traveled to Egypt and then went back to Greece and went on to examine the Persians and Skythians. He must have known about the Jews but was not interested in studying them because they were not important at that time.
    Last edited by Johannes; 27-08-15 at 02:07.

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    1 out of 1 members found this post helpful.
    We don't really know their true origin as the Bible is suspect in promoting a certain constructed history. There was a lot of borrowing from the Amorites who were attacked by the Sea Peoples. Ugarit was under seige with a young Hammarabi pleading for assistance from the Hittites. Many passages in the Bible originate from the Ras Shamra tablets such as the "Prophet Isaiah on Lucifer".

    http://ptm.org/uni/QandA/Fundamental.htm

    http://bible.org/seriespage/isaiah-14

  24. #24
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    1 out of 1 members found this post helpful.
    Yes but this "constructed history" that you refer to is supported by the genetic results which don't lie. 35-45% of Jewish males belong to the J lineage. That's significant middle eastern blood rivalling modern day Iran, or almost as much as Lebanon or turkey, for example. Jews fit in very well with their neighbouring middle eastern populations.

  25. #25
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    According to the Bible Abraham around 1200 or 1500 BC was a shepherd so there were no Jews before that. R1b people were pastorialists and roamed around Middle East, Anatolia and Balkans. Of course, many people may have taken up shepherding as there was meat on the hooves - no need for hunting as all that is needed is feed the goats on pasture. The shepherds were a nuisance to the Babylonians till the Amorites who were shepherds under Hammarabi took over Babylon. These shepherd people might be the precursors to the Jews as the Ten Commandments come from the 'Hammarabi Code'. Around this time the phenomenon of the Sea Peoples occurred. Among the Sea Peoples who were killed were a few thousand circumcised dead when they attacked Egypt. The desert people were circumcised as sand getting into sensitive genital parts may have led to circumcision. The Sea Peoples were Haplogroup I, G and E driven out of Europe or from Anatolia. The I and G people may have stayed mainly in Anatolia but the E people may have joined the J people in settling in the Levant. J people originating from Arabia. Thus you have these people in the region of today's Israel. When Judaism arose these were the people J, E, R1b and maybe even some G. Of course no tribe is purely of a certain Haplogroup as families have boys and girls who knows what boys may be attracted by the girls and also tribes form confederation against a common enemy. There is going to be mingling.

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