Jewish people, where they are from?

[Semitic Duwa]

'In fact, the best candidate for possible E3b Israelite ancestry among Jews is E-M123. This sub-clade occurs in almost the same proportions (approximately 10-12%) among both Ashkenazim and Sephardim (Semino et al. 2004). According to Cruciani (2004), E-M123 probably originated in the Middle East, since it is found in a large majority of the populations from that area, and then back migrated to Ethiopia. He further notes that this sub-clade may have been spread to Europe during the Neolithic agricultural expansion out of the Middle East.' -( jogg.info ).
It looks like Haplogroup J or J1+J2 are amongst 'majority' Y-DNA of Jewish people,probably, because that was the majority Y-DNA of local population population that lived in the land later named Israel. The 'seed' of 'Jewishness' originated in Y-DNA E that came from North Africa to re-claim the land E originated in.
That would explain the 'promise' of land of Canaan.
The same conversion happened to Khazars. Dienekes writes:

'If Proto-Khazars were similar to present-day Altaians minus haplogroup C, then they would have a frequency of about 59% R1a and 22% Q. Therefore, it seems reasonable that an overall 5/22=22% of such Proto-Khazar elements into the Ashkenazi Jewish populations may be likely. But, the Khazars of Khazaria may themselves have been somewhat mixed with Western Eurasian elements..'
Khazars' Y-DNA became major factor in European Jews 'problematic' assimilation to local European life style because they were Jewish only in 'label'. They didn't come to 'sit out the prosecution', they came as nomads to 'better place to live'. This why with such resistance 'new Jews' met the very idea to go to the 'promise land'.'Original Jewish' E - haplogroup always wanted to go back again to the 'promised land'. They needed the 'numbers' to accomplish another return. That explains arrogant attitude leaders of Zionist idea had toward reluctant regular Jews who felt fine staying in Europe.Even under strong 'dislike' from local population, that didn't have the benefit of knowing genetic reasons for conflict, 'Khazarians' were not convinced that going to Palestine is better solution.
If it was known that 'new Jewish' were not responsible for biblical tragedy, it just might shifted conflict to combat 'True Communists' that consisted of multinational array of 'marginals' who were looking to 'corner the market' of political opportunity.
That's it.

What a load of nonsense, seriously.

 

[Semitic Duwa]

It is also a very well known fact that the father of history Herodotus, who travelled extensively through the whole known to him world (from Egypt to Scythia) in the 5th century BC, did not notice any Jews there.

Why babble about Herodotus while there is ample archeological evidence documenting the presence of the Israelites (and, subsequently, Judeans/Jews) from the LBA onwards?
That's a bit like saying the Tarascans didn't exist because Bernal Diaz del Castillo failed to notice them, needless to say it's ridiculous.

 

[Angela]

@Semitic Duwa
I couldn't agree more.

 

[Tomenable]

Herodotus, who travelled extensively through the whole known to him world

He travelled with finger on the map at best.

 

[Johannes]

Why babble about Herodotus while there is ample archeological evidence documenting the presence of the Israelites (and, subsequently, Judeans/Jews) from the LBA onwards?
That's a bit like saying the Tarascans didn't exist because Bernal Diaz del Castillo failed to notice them, needless to say it's ridiculous.

Herodotus traveled to Egypt and then went back to Greece and went on to examine the Persians and Skythians. He must have known about the Jews but was not interested in studying them because they were not important at that time.

 

[Johannes]

@John Doe: AJ are slightly more European than Semitic. Studies have shown that male AJ have about 30% European DNA and 65% Semitic. But AJ females came to 80% European DNA and 10-15% Semitic. This correlates with the historical record; Most Jews who left the Middle East emigrated to Italy and Greece and then into the Rhine River (while some went into the Balkans and then into east Slavic lands). On the way they married German and/or French women (who converted to Judaism). But after that they stopped marrying with the West Europeans and began to marry among themselves and created the mixed Ashkenazi Jews. When they were expelled from Western Europe and went into Poland and Russia they mixed with Slavic women but to a lesser extent. According to what I saw on your DNA results you come almost exactly the same as the figures above.

 

[Johannes]

Possibly, although the main persecutions happened only since the Crusades (for Ashkenazis obviously), before that, well, persecutions happened once in a blue moon, I can number them all in fact, well, there's the Assyrian exile, the Babylonian captivity, the Judeo-Hellenistic wars, the Judeo-Roman wars, the growing restrictions on Jews within the Roman empire when Christianity became the state religion, also many persecutions during the early middle ages but in the Byzantine region, by this time I suppose the Proto-Ashkenazis were already in the Italian peninsula/Gaul/Western Germania. After the Crusades, well, then you get those many persecutions, but the first Crusade is not even a 1,000 years old.

You forgot the persecutions of the Jews by the Catholic Church in Iberia during the mid to late 7th century. Throughout their rule the Goths were very tolerant of both Catholics and Jews (the Goths were initially Arian). But when the Goths converted to Catholicism in the 7th century the Gothic kings began to persecute the Jews. It was the Jews who helped made it possible for the rapid conquest of southern Iberia (Andalusia). They were the fifth column of the Moors and flourished until the Almohads/Almoravids ethnically cleansed them from Andalusia (how ironic).

 

[Semitic Duwa]

@John Doe: AJ are slightly more European than Semitic. Studies have shown that male AJ have about 30% European DNA and 65% Semitic. But AJ females came to 80% European DNA and 10-15% Semitic. This correlates with the historical record; Most Jews who left the Middle East emigrated to Italy and Greece and then into the Rhine River (while some went into the Balkans and then into east Slavic lands). On the way they married German and/or French women (who converted to Judaism). But after that they stopped marrying with the West Europeans and began to marry among themselves and created the mixed Ashkenazi Jews. When they were expelled from Western Europe and went into Poland and Russia they mixed with Slavic women but to a lesser extent. According to what I saw on your DNA results you come almost exactly the same as the figures above.

Over 80% of AJ patrilineages come from the Near East, and that's a minimalist estimate since a more realistic estimate brings us closer to 90%, and the study you are invoking here (Costa et al. 2013) was overturned by Fenandez et al. 2014's re-analysis of PPNB remains from Syria, and I won't even bother addressing the fact that the authors contradict their own conlcusions in the supplemental data. Furthermore, this "European" vs "Semitic" dichotomy is both confusing and inaccurate to start with. Finally, I have no idea how you concluded that AJs married "German and/or French women" before mixing with "Slavic women", if that's the impression you got from AJ autosomal results I'm afraid we're not looking at the same data.

 

[Johannes]

Over 80% of AJ patrilineages come from the Near East, and that's a minimalist estimate since a more realistic estimate brings us closer to 90%, and the study you are invoking here (Costa et al. 2013) was overturned by Fenandez et al. 2014's re-analysis of PPNB remains from Syria, and I won't even bother addressing the fact that the authors contradict their own conlcusions in the supplemental data. Furthermore, this "European" vs "Semitic" dichotomy is both confusing and inaccurate to start with. Finally, I have no idea how you concluded that AJs married "German and/or French women" before mixing with "Slavic women", if that's the impression you got from AJ autosomal results I'm afraid we're not looking at the same data.

OK so you must be talking about male DNA? Jewish Mtdna is heavily European. Ashkenazi Jews have traditionally been attracted to "goyim" women in order to "blend in" into their European environments. They did this in order to do business and find women to marry in Europe. They still mix with "goyim" women as we speak (look at USA and Hollywood).

In the beginning ancient Jews were very similar to Arabs both in mental and physical characteristics -- dark skin, hairy, curly or wooly hair, almond-shaped eyes, belief in one god, very strict laws, loud, rude, aggressive, etc -- but their religion separated them. Eventually Jews in Europe became so mixed that they became indistinguishable from Europeans or Americans as they do today -- or any other race/nationality.

 

[Vallicanus]

Very simplistic and racist of you.

 

[Johannes]

Thank you!

 

[Drac II]

In the beginning ancient Jews were very similar to Arabs both in mental and physical characteristics -- dark skin, hairy, curly or wooly hair,

Have you yet found any example of ancient Arabian (or Jewish, for that matter, since now you also are including them as well) art work showing a human face with sub-Saharan African traits, like the "wooly hair" you keep babbling about, or are you still just posting ludicrous claims that have already been addressed and refuted in other threads?

 

[Johannes]

Over 80% of AJ patrilineages come from the Near East, and that's a minimalist estimate since a more realistic estimate brings us closer to 90%, and the study you are invoking here (Costa et al. 2013) was overturned by Fenandez et al. 2014's re-analysis of PPNB remains from Syria, and I won't even bother addressing the fact that the authors contradict their own conlcusions in the supplemental data. Furthermore, this "European" vs "Semitic" dichotomy is both confusing and inaccurate to start with. Finally, I have no idea how you concluded that AJs married "German and/or French women" before mixing with "Slavic women", if that's the impression you got from AJ autosomal results I'm afraid we're not looking at the same data.

See "Genetic Studies of Jewish origins" on Wikipedia. About 80% of AJ's male lines come from Middle East and North Africa. But on the other hand the female DNA are mostly European (65-80%). "A 2013 study at the University of Huddersfield, led by Professor Martin B. Richards, concluded that 65%-81% of Ashkenazi Mt-DNA is European in origin, including all four founding mothers, and that most of the remaining lineages are also European. The results were published in Nature Communications in October 2013. The team analyzed about 2,500 complete and 28,000 partial Mt-DNA genomes of mostly non-Jews, and 836 partial Mt-DNA genomes of Ashkenazi Jews. The study claims that only 8% of Ashkenazi Mt-DNA could be identified as Middle Eastern in origin, with the origin of the rest being unclear.^[53]"

 

[John Doe]

Have you yet found any example of ancient Arabian (or Jewish, for that matter, since now you also are including them as well) art work showing a human face with sub-Saharan African traits, like the "wooly hair" you keep babbling about, or are you still just posting ludicrous claims that have already been addressed and refuted in other threads?

The only scientific study to suggest that is from Popular mechanics [http://www.popularmechanics.com/science/health/a234/1282186/]. Thing is, we're talking as if AJs on average are as light as Germans or Swedes which is far from the case, most AJs on average (and I can use my family as an example) look Mediterranean on average, would they fit in places like Crete or Greece? Sure, but Saxony? Not on average. Now naturally talking about phenotype isn't exactly up to date, but if we want to discuss that, then Coon's study form 1939 suggests that AJs on average are as light (or lighter, can't remember) than south Italians but darker than north Italians.

 

[John Doe]

See "Genetic Studies of Jewish origins" on Wikipedia. About 80% of AJ's male lines come from Middle East and North Africa. But on the other hand the female DNA are mostly European (65-80%). "A 2013 study at the University of Huddersfield, led by Professor Martin B. Richards, concluded that 65%-81% of Ashkenazi Mt-DNA is European in origin, including all four founding mothers, and that most of the remaining lineages are also European. The results were published in Nature Communications in October 2013. The team analyzed about 2,500 complete and 28,000 partial Mt-DNA genomes of mostly non-Jews, and 836 partial Mt-DNA genomes of Ashkenazi Jews. The study claims that only 8% of Ashkenazi Mt-DNA could be identified as Middle Eastern in origin, with the origin of the rest being unclear.^[53]"

The first study you mentioned is Costa which was refuted. Besides, Costa suggests that most of those lineages arose in Mediterranean Europe. Also, uniparental markers don't represent the entire pie, and Austosomally AJs plot in the gap between Europe and the near east.

 

[Angela]

The only scientific study to suggest that is from Popular mechanics [http://www.popularmechanics.com/science/health/a234/1282186/]. Thing is, we're talking as if AJs on average are as light as Germans or Swedes which is far from the case, most AJs on average (and I can use my family as an example) look Mediterranean on average, would they fit in places like Crete or Greece? Sure, but Saxony? Not on average. Now naturally talking about phenotype isn't exactly up to date, but if we want to discuss that, then Coon's study form 1939 suggests that AJs on average are as light (or lighter, can't remember) than south Italians but darker than north Italians.

As I'm sure you know, that's a "recreation". There was no dna for guidance as to hair texture, pigmentation etc. It's some artist's idea of what ancient people from Judea might have possessed in terms of those traits, probably based on current inhabitants of some place like Gaza. Who knows how close it is.

People who make these kinds of claims seem to have never seen a picture of someone actually from Sub-Saharan Africa.

Anyway, if someone wants to get a rough idea of what Jews of that time and place might have looked like, I would think the Samaritans and the Druse might be a good bet.

Druze leader with Benjamin Netanyahu:
http://www.aljazeera.com/mritems/images/2014/1/7//20141713162069580_20.jpg

To the usual suspects, please spare us scores of pictures of the Druze when heavily tanned. We know they, like many inhabitants of the Mediterranean zone, can tan very dark.

*Ed. Netanyahu is the Israeli leader posted.

 

[Johannes]

The first study you mentioned is Costa which was refuted. Besides, Costa suggests that most of those lineages arose in Mediterranean Europe. Also, uniparental markers don't represent the entire pie, and Austosomally AJs plot in the gap between Europe and the near east.

I am not sure what you meant. The first study for Mtdna? Are you talking about males or females? Do autosomal DNA tests males, females, or both?

 

[John Doe]

As I'm sure you know, that's a "recreation". There was no dna for guidance as to hair texture, pigmentation etc. It's some artist's idea of what ancient people from Judea might have possessed in terms of those traits, probably based on current inhabitants of some place like Gaza. Who knows how close it is.

Really? I wasn't aware of that. This helps reinforce the idea that ancient Jews weren't necessarily darker than the average Cretan.

Anyway, if someone wants to get a rough idea of what Jews of that time and place might have looked like, I would think the Samaritans and the Druse might be a good bet.

Druze leader with Ariel Sharon:
http://www.aljazeera.com/mritems/images/2014/1/7//20141713162069580_20.jpg

That's Benjamin Netanyahu but I get your point.

 

[John Doe]

I am not sure what you meant. The first study for Mtdna? Are you talking about males or females? Do autosomal DNA tests males, females, or both?

Both males and females have Mtdna, females can pass their lineages on to their offspring but males can't. Autosmal DNA exists in both sexes, it's made up of the 21 chromosomes besides the Y and X chromosomes and thus it has more meaning, problem is, it doesn't pass intact through the generations due to genetic recombination, unlike the Y chromosome which passes mostly intact.

 

[Johannes]

Both males and females have Mtdna, females can pass their lineages on to their offspring but males can't. Autosmal DNA exists in both sexes, it's made up of the 21 chromosomes besides the Y and X chromosomes and thus it has more meaning, problem is, it doesn't pass intact through the generations due to genetic recombination, unlike the Y chromosome which passes mostly intact.

OK, thank you for the information. I used to work with a Jewish teacher in L.A. We talked about the origins of Ashkenazi Jews as I was the history teacher. I told him that the word "Ashkenazi" meant "Germany" in Hebrew and that AJ were descended partially from from Germans and Slavs. He went to his rabbi and asked him about the origins of AJ and his rabbi said that Jews "whitened" themselves by passing through the Rhine. This correlates with the history of the Jews in Europe. Originally many Jews came to Europe through Iberia, Greece and Italy. Many single Jewish men married local women and their descendants went north and married more local women (the converted the women first). Then after several generations they stopped marrying outside their ethnic group and married exclusively from each other and thus created the Ashkenazi Jews. The genetic studies that make AJ maternal lines 65-80% European supports this.